Trent Horn tries to prove that God exists.
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It you are arguing the non existence of infinity, it seems rather odd to be arguing for the existence of infinity at the same time (through God)... again, Paradox ?
You still seem to be dodging the question of what is it your are trying to proving by proving the existence of God.
Actually, if you read back a little, or watch the first 15 minutes of the video in the first post of this forum, you'll see an argument made that mentions that the universe began to exist (has a beginning) with an argument with how the universe cannot have an infinite past as it would lead to a contradiction.
That's why the discussion has reached this point. Everyone else here has assumed that Trent simply assumes without proof that the universe has a beginning without proving it.
He didn't prove it; and I already addressed this claim in the other thread. You know where he made that ridiculous statement that it takes an infinite amount of time to count an infinite amount of items?
Yes, you answered it by saying, "This is false" or "This is doubtful (far from clear)." That's not addressing the issue.
He has given a proof which does follow logically. he goes, "The universe began to exist" and "Everything which began to exist has a cause." He then shows how these two statements are true then concludes that a first cause must exist.
If he proved it (as I think you claimed); could you post his proof here; or at least tell us what method of proof he used?
It does not follow logically, because him saying...
The universe began to exist
Everything which began to exist has a cause
And then following this with his preferred conclusion is not logically sound.
Premise one of "the universe began to exist" is not a dichotomy because it does not exhaust all possible other explanations and arguments.
You could say, the universe has always existed or the universe has not always existed... that's a dichotomy!
But you fall into Matt Slick problem of which ever option you negate in premise 2 you are left with either a trivial arguement or a begging the question fallacy.
He does actually present two mutually exclusive events and gives a proof that one cannot be possible.
The two events he presented are: The universe has a finite past (has a beginning). And the universe has a non-finite past (is eternal).
What other possible event would there be that doesn't isn't represented here?
The universe *in its current state/phase* has a beginning. That was ~14 billion years ago.
We don't know what was "before" that state. This not an automatic assumption that there was absolutely nothing "before" this universe.
A theologian with no background or formal education in any branch of physics makes a bold claim about the beginning of the universe... and you don't see the issue?
He hasn't proved it in the slightest, the origins of the universe as it's currently thought states that the universe began as an incredibly hot, dense point roughly 13.7 billion years ago.
The big bang was a period of rapid expansion!
There is no definitive exact starting scenario for what occurred before hand, and Trent's assertion is unfounded with no evidence.
I would actually have an issue with it if he truly didn't know what he was talking about. His degree is in theology and is pursuing a degree in Philosophy. He touches on the physics aspect on the beginning of the universe then proceeds to a logical / philosophical proof of the beginning of the universe.
For my part I couldn't understand his logic until I applied the same principle to heat and temperature.
But he doesn't know what he's talking about, he's not a physicist! It's just bold unsubstantiated claims.
And I maintain, no one truly knows the start of the universe!
What we can observe is that almost 14b years ago, the universe went through a rapid period of expansion, it doesn't tell us what was before and regress from there.
There are ideas such as being an infinitely dense and hot state full of virtual particles but we just don't know 100%.. to claim otherwise is intellectually dishonest.
So basically God provoked the Big Bang ? Would that justify having to go to church every sunday in his honour ? And going to Hell for eternity if you believe it was his wife who did ?
Of course not. There's a huge leap from saying, "There is a God" to saying "This religion is true."
What's being discussed here is the 1st one.
Am I the only one who doesn't give a shit about the scientific or philosophical arguments? Getting into these arguments only grants validity to the vicious, amoral beast of theism -- especially Christianity.
As Richard Dawkins plainly points out ....
Dawkins provides multiple Biblical references to document these characteristics here.... https://unpleasantgod.ffrf.org/#/categories
As such, I do not engage in infantile debates/pissing contests by simply saying that even if God existed/exists, I reject his/her/its ass on being a total amoral asshole. End of conversation. Why would I even want to engage in a debate/pissing contest with a person who is so blinded and gullible that they are unable to see what is as plain as the nose on their face.
Surely there are other atheists who quite simply do not have the time or patience to deal with such ignorance when the theists aren't going to change their minds anyway!
Note: The intellectual flamers can respond now. LOL
That's fine. You're basically saying it's not an important question to resolve. I'm not hear to change your mind of that subject. I'm actually wondering why you chose to comment at all.
The thread's topic was clear in that it would be about God's existence; not about the morality of the Judeo-Christian religions.
Anyway, I think we can all agree not to pursue this topic here.
Well stated! I believe that brilliantly outlines the Atheist position in a nutshell.
Thanks for bringing such clarity to the fore.
P.S. - May I have permission to quote you?