What do you make of this?

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Yochanan יהוה-הוא-אדיב Lilley's picture
What do you make of this?

I am about to post some video clips of Christians walking in the miraculous. I have personal Christian friends who are in contact with these Christians (visited them and so on).

I have two questions...

FIRSTLY: Do you consider these people to be:

(X) Sound in mind and integrity.
(-X) Unsound in mind and/or integrity.

SECONDLY: If you hold (X), what is your explanation for the miraculous experiences? And if it is not in agreement with their beliefs why is your explanation a better one than the one the people themselves give (faith in the power of Holy Spirit/Christ)?

Here are the video clips (please watch them all before commenting)...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5wNa8z7sNUE

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mxVOaIWVFSg

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EIP8tkaNMjY

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5gfZ-2qt2u0

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mykcob4's picture
What a bunch of BULLSHIT.

What a bunch of BULLSHIT.
1) There is no such thing as a miracle.
2) Every miracle claim needs to be PROVED, just like it is IMPORTANT to PROVE your god.
3) You pose a false premise. You demand that we accept only YOUR FUCKING answers as if that is the only possibility. That is a "push-poll" question, a highly unethical practice.

Yochanan יהוה-הוא-אדיב Lilley's picture
Wow, what an angry person you

Wow, what an angry person you are.

FIRSTLY...

You say:

"Every miracle claim needs to be PROVED, just like it is IMPORTANT to PROVE your god."

Yet, you made the positive knowledge claim of:

"There is no such thing as a miracle."

Prove it! That is all you seem to say to others. Prove that the proposition 'Miracles are impossible' is true or more likely true than the proposition 'Miracles are possible.' If you can't or won't, why the double standards (are you just blinded by ignorant hypocritical anger)?

SECONDLY...

You said:

"You pose a false premise. You demand that we accept only YOUR FUCKING answers as if that is the only possibility. That is a "push-poll" question, a highly unethical practice."

What I said was based on the logical law of excluded middle (go read about it). Granted, I did put two variables so that each position could be a combination. So I will make this simple, based on the logical law of excluded middle one of the two are true:

(X) The people in the video are honestly presenting the events as they happened.
(-X) The people in the video are dishonestly presenting the events as they happened (perhaps acting or so on).

If you hold to (-X) more than (X), you have a burden proof (in your words 'PROVE IT').

I will give the reasons why it is rational to believe the events are due to a miracle...

(A) From general experience we know these events don't happen and thus are highly unlikely to happen: thus it can act as a marker pointing to a supernatural cause (rather than a natural cause - by natural cause I mean the universe acting as a closed causal system).
(B) From science we know these events should not happen: thus giving strong evidence the cause is supernatural (outside of the natural, the part of reality science can quantify).
(C) It happened in a specific religio context (and has several times in the same context): thus it is highly unlikely that both (1) this unlikely event would happen and (2) just as the religio context is applied - by pure coincidence.
(3A) The religio context is good evidence for the cause being best explained by the context in which occurred (based on inference to the best explanation), since any other hypothesis is a random guess, at least on this theory there is specific religio context in which the cause takes place.

Sheldon's picture
"SECONDLY: If you hold (X),

"SECONDLY: If you hold (X), what is your explanation for the miraculous experiences? "

Argumentum ad ignorantiam. You're also begging the question by referring to the experience as "miraculous" since you have no evidence,, just an appeal to ignorance. No explanation is just that, and goddidit has no explanatory powers, you might as well claim pixies did it.

Yochanan יהוה-הוא-אדיב Lilley's picture
*Sigh* You should never have

*Sigh* You should never have been let loose with logical fallacies Sheldon; you always miss-apply them.

This is not an argument from ignorance, I was asking a question; however, if I was to make the argument it would be based on inference to the best explanation (go read about this, instead of logical fallacies). If you are makning the claim it is not a miracle, you have a burden of proof.

The reasons for the events being best explained as a miracle:

(A) From general experience we know these events don't happen and thus are highly unlikely to happen: thus it can act as a marker pointing to a supernatural cause (rather than a natural cause - by natural cause I mean the universe acting as a closed causal system).
(B) From science we know these events should not happen: thus giving strong evidence the cause is supernatural (outside of the natural, the part of reality science can quantify).
(C) It happened in a specific religio context (and has several times in the same context): thus it is highly unlikely that both (1) this unlikely event would happen and (2) just as the religio context is applied - by pure coincidence.
(3A) The religio context is good evidence for the cause being best explained by the context in which it occurred (based on inference to the best explanation), since any other hypothesis is a random guess (like your pixie statement), at least on this theory there is specific religio context in which the cause takes place (there is nothing for any other hypothesis).

Sheldon's picture
"The Interlocutor "Yet, you

"The Interlocutor "Yet, you made the positive knowledge claim of:" "There is no such thing as a miracle."

"Prove it! "
-----------------------------------------------------
The Interlocutor *Sigh* You should never have been let loose with logical fallacies Sheldon; you always miss-apply them. This is not an argument from ignorance,

Sigh all you want, it is the very definition of an argument from ignorance. You're claiming something exists you can demonstrate no empirical evidence for, then insisting the claim has validity until someone disproves it.
--------------------------------------------------
"If you are makning the claim it is not a miracle, you have a burden of proof."

Not if you have asserted a miracle without proof, which you have of course, then Hitchen's razor applies, and it can rejected without evidence.
----------------------------------------------------
"From general experience we know these events don't happen and thus are highly unlikely to happen: thus it can act as a marker pointing to a supernatural cause "

"From science we know these events should not happen: thus giving strong evidence the cause is supernatural "

Or they are myths, borne of ignorance and superstition, this time Occam's razor applies.
-----------------------------------------------------
"outside of the natural, the part of reality science can quantify"

It;s true that by definition science cannot detect the supernatural, but then it cannot detect anything that does not exist and for which there is no evidence.
----------------------------------------------------
"The religio context is good evidence for the cause being best explained by the context in which it occurred "

OR for it being a superstitious fabrication, which religions excel at.

You're defining mermaids into existence, but it's not real of course, and not at all compelling, and the "logic" seems like it's being constructed whilst on acid...

-----------------------------------------
"there is nothing for any other hypothesis"

You could try reality, and evidence commensurate to the claims being made. Instead of your "smoke and mirrors" act here. What's the use of an education if you don't use it critically.

watchman's picture
Odd ....

Odd ....

All those testimonies..... and only Oliveri picks up on them...?

You'd think that there would be doctors ,nurses ,paramedics ,scientists all queueing up to examine these occurrences... even believers from different branches of faith.... Catholics , Jews , Baptists etc..

but no.... its just the guys from the Normal Christian Life ........

(although that's sought of appropriate..... The Normal Christian Life = lying for Jesus)

But to your question.... what would I make of it...?

.....A coffee table....

Yochanan יהוה-הוא-אדיב Lilley's picture
Firstly, lots of doctors and

Firstly, lots of doctors and nurses believe in miracles.
http://reasonsforjesus.com/74-of-doctors-believe-in-miracles-55-have-see...

Secondly, when my granddad was completely healed of cancer miraculously (after being told he was terminal with about 3-5 months left to live), the doctors did not make a big song and dance about it. They just accepted it and even when my granddad told them it was God who did it because we all prayed and fasted for him to be healed the doctor just smiled and agreed. There was not big news outlets coming to our door.

biggus dickus's picture
Really? https://en.wikipedia
Sheldon's picture
"Firstly, lots of doctors and

"Firstly, lots of doctors and nurses believe in miracles.2

Another common logical fallacy, this time it's argumentum ad populism, a bare appeal to numbers.

"Secondly, when my granddad was completely healed of cancer miraculously (after being told he was terminal with about 3-5 months left to live), the doctors did not make a big song and dance about it. They just accepted it and even when my granddad told them it was God who did it because we all prayed and fasted for him to be healed the doctor just smiled and agreed. There was not big news outlets coming to our door."

Post hoc ergo propter hoc (Latin: "after this, therefore because of this") is a logical fallacy that states "Since event Y followed event X, event Y must have been caused by event X." It is often shortened simply to post hoc fallacy.

Yochanan יהוה-הוא-אדיב Lilley's picture
*A NOTE TO ALL COMMENTING ON

*A NOTE TO ALL COMMENTING ON THIS THREAD*

I am becoming so dis-heartened by comments from users on this forum (just bitter and ignorant mainly) that I will probably not be visiting this forum anymore. So I may not respond to you if you comment from now on.

Sorry if you had a genuine question or something actually rational/reasonable to say.

God bless

CyberLN's picture
L8R

L8R

Sheldon's picture
"I am becoming so dis

"I am becoming so dis-heartened by comments from users on this forum"

You ought to be reading your comments with an open critical mind, trust me you don't have a monopoly on being disheartened. Lining up bare assertions, peppered with logical fallacies is not very compelling.

mykcob4's picture
"FIRSTLY...blah, blah, blah,.

"FIRSTLY...blah, blah, blah,...BULLSHIT...blah, blah, blah..."
"SECONDLY...blah, blah, blah,...MORE BULLSHIT & HYPERBOLE...blah, blah, blah..."
"THIRDLY...yadda, yadda, yadda...STILL MORE BULLSHIT...yadda, ...word salad...yadda..."
1) There is no proof of a miracle. I don't have to disprove a miracle. Just because someone claims a miracle doesn't mean it is a miracle!
2) You call me angry when all you do is get frustrated that we don't accept your bullshit. I have watched your posts for days now, and they are as about as inane as any post I have ever read. they are filled with faulty logic, false premises, pseudo-psychology, and wordy as hell. They aren't great revelations in logic as YOU think that they are!

You said: "I am becoming so dis-heartened by comments from users on this forum (just bitter and ignorant mainly) that I will probably not be visiting this forum anymore. So I may not respond to you if you comment from now on."
My reply: Don't let the door hit you in the ass when you go!
I see guys like you all the time. You think that you are smart, but you aren't. You think that posting a wordy long-ass post that you'll appear intelligent. Just the opposite is true.
So to illustrate my point you have resorted to what all lame christian posters resort to....the proverbial YouTube testimony! Unsubstantiated, nonverified, piece of crap and you want US to accept it. What were you thinking? Don't you know that almost every atheist was a believer at some point in their lives? On average atheist have the highest IQs, highest level of education per individual as a demographic. Can't you christains figure out that you will not convince intelligent highly educated people of your myth without REAL FUCKING PROOF. Posting a bunch of lame testimonies is not EVIDENCE of anything except the level of stupidity and desperation by you.
You came on this forum with an arrogant chip on your shoulder. The "I'm really going to show those atheists" attitude. You have brought NOTHING and I mean nothing to the table.
So it won't hurt my feelings one bit if you "don't respond" I think that your brain is comatose in the first place. I really won't see much difference except that I won't be able to print your replies and use it as toilet paper any longer....THAT IS HOW LONG AND USELESS THEY ARE!

algebe's picture
@Mykcob4: "On average atheist

@Mykcob4: "On average atheist have the highest IQs, highest level of education per individual as a demographic."

Hear hear! We're also more knowledgeable about the bible, etc., than most believers.

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