I will be the first to tell you guys that I’m not a scholar on biblical studies. Through out my life I have tried to make sense out of religion, and try to decide the best way to live with or without it. Of course, I am an atheist. I chose this because it is what made the most sense out of the information I could gather after lots of reading and rational thoughts. The title of my post comes from thoughts I have about the Bible and the stories within. First, how in the hell could Jesus be white? How is the popular image of Jesus this handsome white man with a great beard and flowing hair? It’s not at all possible! And if god magically impregnated Mary, why couldn’t he provide them a safe place to have “his” son? As far as Satan, why would the most evil being in existence need to wear pants? Or even a loin cloth? What, does Satan wake up, shower, and put on fresh clothes before a new day of evil deeds? How can people believe this? Now I already hear the arguments from the believers saying that these are just images created by man, but I say the WHOLE story is created by man with the art work to go with it! Help me out if I’m missing something please!
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Nope. Sounds reasonable to me. You can't know any of this stuff. Remember, in half of Christianity, Jesus is God. If that is the case, he can have any colored skin he wants. The real question is "How do you know that is what Jesus looks like?" "What evidence do you have?" "What are the origins of the picture." The same with Satan. "How do you know he wears / does not wear pants and what color are they." Fact is, NO ONE KNOWS. Do not pretend you know and certainly do not pretend you know for sure none of this is true. You would be required to defend your assertion with facts and evidence where there are none.
Sounds to me like you pretty much nailed it, PJ. (Pardon the pun... *snicker*...)
Are you saying that as atheists, we also cannot make claims because we cannot prove these points as well? If so, I understand, but I now take offense at how rediculous most of this shit really is! Praying to the same god for a cure to a disease he put apron you or the classic image of Jesus is idiotic! Jesus could have made himself look as he wanted, but I would guess given the region, Mary couldn’t have been white either. I beg fot knowledge if I’m ignorant to this but were there white people in these areas during this time? I would assume most look like people of the Middle East look now. I believe the stories use the images we see to make us feel more sympathetic towards Jesus. The images of Satan have always been to scare us shitless, to make us run to the savior! But I still wonder why does he wear pants?
pj: " Are you saying that as atheists, we also cannot make claims because we cannot prove these points as well? "
As an atheist, what claim are you trying to make? Atheism is a position of not believing in Christian claims about god. That's it. The Christian claims, "God Exists." and the atheists says "I don't believe that." The only person making a claim is the Christian. "Why don't you believe my claim." asks the Christian. "I see no reason to believe your claim. Do you have any evidence?" responds the atheist. What claim do you think you are making as an atheist?
The person making the claim has the burden of proof for the claim they make. What claim will you make and what evidence will you use to support your claim,?
1. Praying to the same god for a cure to a disease (Not all Christians pray to the same God and not all Christian Gods cure diseases. Some Christians actually take their kids to the doctor.)
2. The classic image of Jesus is idiotic! (Perhaps, but if there is an all powerful god, certainly he can come to earth looking like anything he wants to look like.) You must prove the picture is not a picture of an all powerful son of god who can take any form he wants to take. (On the other hand, most Christians know that the image in the photo is not the real Jesus. I remember a bible school class where the teacher had us go through magazines looking for a fact that might match what we know of Jesus. Not all Christians are that dogmatic.)
3. Mary couldn’t have been white either. (Are you asserting white or light skinned people did not exist? That there were no fair skinned people in the entire Mediterranean that made their way to Bethlehem? How do you know that? Can you prove it? (Again, most Christians probably would not assert Mary was white. You are just creating a Red Herring Fallacy. ) You must prove your assertion.
4. WHY DOES SATAN WEAR PANTS: My guess. The Satan we know today is an invention of prudish conservative Christians and it would never do to have him displaying his privates all over Church walls. I can't prove it but I suspect this to be the real reason he wears pants. (Keep in mind, the Roman Satan was "Pan". The god of the forest. Half man and half goat. The god of the heathens. (People living on the heaths / hills) outside of the city of Rome. He did not wear pants but his lower body was covered with goat hair.
"After the Council of Nicea issued the Nicene Creed and the Roman Catholic Church was established in 325 C.E., Christian theologians (beginning with Eusebius) transformed Pan from a benign nature god to Satan�the great Adversary."
Or was Pan the original Jesus...... Hmmmm?
Thank you for your answer. I will admit right now that I have read many of your entries in this forum , and I have not a fraction of the biblical knowledge you have. My belief, or opinion is that the classic images of Mary or Jesus is pretty ridiculous given the location of the story. My first idea would be that since most people of this area were of Middle East decent, Joseph and Mary would be as well. I have no proof, but I would say chances would be high. But what I will say here is this, I believe this image of Jesus and Mary has been used to help push this ridiculous fairy tale on ignorant people. Kids can see this Jesus as a friend. It is pushed on the flock to invoke sympathy and the willingness to follow. Satan couldn’t wear pants. They would burn off!
You can think what you want but when you make an assertion you have made a statement about reality and you must prove it. You are putting yourself in a non-tenable position when you make an assertion. What you want to do is find out if the Christian accepts that picture of Jesus as real and then ask them how they know it.
By making the assertion that it is not real, you are allowing them to shift the burden of proof. Now you have to prove your statement true. Can you prove in any way shape or form that Jesus did not have fair skin. History of ancient Israel and Judah
"The full extent of the cultural, linguistic, religious or other differences among the Israelites in antiquity is unknown. Following the defeat of the Kingdom of Israel in the 720s BCE and the Kingdom of Judah in 586 BCE, the Jewish people became dispersed throughout much of the Middle East and Africa , especially in Egypt and North Africa to the west, as well as in Yemen to the south, and in Mesopotamia to the east. The Jewish population in ancient Israel was severely reduced by the Jewish–Roman wars and by the later hostile policies of the Christian emperors,"
It may indeed be unlikely but if a Christian asserts that picture of Jesus is the real Jesus, isn't it better to let them prove that it is than for you to try and prove that it is not. How knowledgeable are you? THE BURDEN OF PROOF IS ON THE RELIGIOUS.
Avoid making absolute claims or even holding absolute beliefs less you sound as foolish as them.
Your point is clear and I have learned something from you. In my time leading up to being an atheist these stories and images being very unbelievable and unproven, lead me away from that path. Once as a child we were visiting a friend of my mother. She was African - American and a christian. She had a painting depicting Christ on the cross, and he was black. It’s the first time I had ever seen any other version of Jesus. The lady noticed me staring at the painting and asked me about it. I told her I had never seen that before. She proceeds to tell me no one knows what Jesus looked like., but that she found comfort in the image that he could be black as well as white. A few years later, I asked a history teacher about the classic image and he said it wasn’t likely, but chosen to please the worshippers. He didn’t believe in creation either. So I thank you for pointing out the difference between statements of fact and opinions. I cannot disprove these images, but I don’t believe in them either.
Excellent! Now if your teacher had asserted "Jesus was not black." As a good skeptical thinker and having seen a picture of a black Jesus you could have asked, "How do you know that."
It is the Christians that make the wild fallacious claims, not the atheists. The fact is NO ONE HAS EVER DEMONSTRATED THAT THEY KNOW ANYTHING AT ALL ABOUT WHAT JESUS ACTUALLY LOOKED LIKE, if he was a real person.
When you make assertions, you must provide evidence. Let the religious make the assertions and then ask them for their evidence.
Oh, just a side note here real quick, but I thought the Devil wore Prada.
"Oh, just a side note here real quick, but I thought the Devil wore Prada."
...and then went down to Georgia?
Of course those are the devils we know, which are better than the ones we don't, apparently.
@PJ Re: "Jesus could have made himself look as he wanted, but I would guess given the region, Mary couldn’t have been white either."
Yeah, that is something that always puzzled me as a kid. Even though I knew very little about the Middle East and Egypt at the time, I never could figure out why Jesus was always presented as being a white hippy-looking dude. While at the same time (especially during the 70's), so many youth and others were teased or "frowned upon" for having similar long hair. Totally baffled the shit out of me.
"First, how in the hell could Jesus be white?"
Because white Europeans were invested in spreading religion and they thought it would be easier to accept teachings from a white guy, so the leadership only commissioned pictures of Jesus as a white guy :P
"How is the popular image of Jesus this handsome white man with a great beard and flowing hair? It’s not at all possible!"
The Middle East must have been the world leader in shampoo and conditioner.
"And if god magically impregnated Mary, why couldn’t he provide them a safe place to have “his” son?"
He easily could have, but given that he let his son get crucified before he forgave us for original sin when he easily could have just forgiven us without the torture and murder, I gather he wasn't too invested in Jesus' comfort.
"As far as Satan, why would the most evil being in existence need to wear pants? Or even a loin cloth? What, does Satan wake up, shower, and put on fresh clothes before a new day of evil deeds? How can people believe this?"
I don't have a pithy answer for this one, it baffles me too. Considering how particular the Christian god is about what we do with our genitals, I would imagine that his opposition would let 'em fly, so to speak. With the prohibition on homosexuality and the patriarchal nature of Christianity, I would hazard to guess that Christians are frightened to death of penises and buried any pictures of Satan's whatsit.
You got me cracking up, dude. Thanks. LMAO...
Skeptical Kevin you are driving home my point! It’s so absurd. Why wouldn’t demons fly around with their genitalia exposed? Animals do! Is Satan trying to be decent? And you are100% correct in that the images of Christ are used to make people feel sympathetic towards him. If the images were of someone that looked like Bin Laden, we wouldn’t have Christianity.
Pirate Jack: If the images were of someone that looked like Bin Laden, we wouldn’t have Christianity.
You could not be more wrong. You keep making unfounded assertions. You are doing the exact same thing that Christians do. Apparently you imagine you can make these assertions unchallenged as you are on an atheist forum. "How long have you been an atheist?" It seems to me that you are missing something. Just making inane assertions about religions, theists, or Christians is not what atheism is about., For your edification - the first pictures of Jesus that spurred the development of the Christian world. The image of Jesus has changed a hundred times throughout Christian evolution.
Those pictures are all fakes. The Bible says that Jesus looks like this = http://www.bricktestament.com/revelation/future_revealed_to_guy_on_tiny_...
You can't fool me! That's a picture of Tin Man's little brother in last year's Christmas play.
@Cog Re: "That's a picture of Tin Man's little brother in last year's Christmas play."
Uhhhh, actually, that's me. Yeah, my brother got stage fright at the last minute and asked me to cover for him. Overall, I think they did a pretty good job on the makeup. However, you have any idea how hard it is to say your lines with a sword in your mouth? Thought I was gonna have to get stitches when they finally took the damn thing out. Sheesh!
@ Tin Man
Stitches? Don't you mean rivets or a weld? Have a heart mate....
Allow me to address what I meant here. I said this as fact without communicating my thoughts. This is what I’m thinking... if there was in fact a Jesus, and he wasn’t a handsome man, although he should have been able to look as he pleased, I do not believe (cannot prove this to be true) that people would have gravitated towards him so easily. I’m saying the people pushing the agenda picked a great spokesmodel. Pardon my ignorance, it gets the best of me when it comes to this ridiculous shit. I go on the offensive to easily.
No one gravitated towards him / Jesus easily. Christianity grew at the rate no faster than every other religion on the planet. About 6 percent per year. Same as the Mormon faith. The biggest boost to the Christian faith was when it was made the official religion of Rome. Then when Rome fell, the Church ruled the world and if you were not Christian you were killed. All pagan temples were burned to the ground or converted to Churches. There is no secret to how the Christian faith spread. It had nothing to do with Jesus, his apostles or his message and everything to do with Power and Politics. Paul never swayed multitudes to the Christian faith. Everywhere Paul went there was already an active Church in existence. This magical spread of Christianity is CHRISTIAN MYTHOLOGY.
I looked all day for this quote by Richard Carrier. Letter from Pliny The Younger, 110 AD. The letter reveals that there were very few Christians. Pliny was one of the most legally experienced people in the Roman Empire. Even so, he had never been present at a trial for a Christian. Had no idea what they were guilty of. And did not know what punishment to use. He had to ask the Emperor. Eventually they were punished for being an illegal assembly. You needed permits to assemble in ancient Rome. So Christians were virtually unknown in 110 AD in the Roman Empire. 25;05 on the lecture.
When Constantine made the IMAGINARY conversion to Christianity. (He remained a Pagan High Bishop until his death.) The Christian population is Rome (I read someplace and can not find it now) was about 20%. 312 CE.
There is no remarkable growth. That is a Christian myth.
By the way, in this link you shared is information on how “Jesus became white.”
Yes, Current Archaeological and historical evidence seems to suggest he was not originally white. No one knows exactly what they are basing all of this on because these same Archaeologists have not yet proved Jesus ever actually existed. Hmmmm? Is clear a color? The search goes on., Isn't it just easier to ask someone how they know what Jesus actually looked like and why we should believe them over everyone else with an idea of what Jesus looked like? Perhaps he changed his looks as often as he changed his personality in the Gospels. Who knows? Not me.
"Yes, Current Archaeological and historical evidence seems to suggest he was not originally white. No one knows exactly what they are basing all of this on because these same Archaeologists have not yet proved Jesus ever actually existed. "
The interesting thing between the Christian and the Islamic fairy tales is that the Christian one doesn't have a description of the primary character (other than being a drunkard and a glutton and a freeloader) but everyone draws hims and even depicts him in movies. The Islamic fairy tale gives a description of Mohammed and even says that he had lice but very few people ever draw his image and no one depicts him in movies.
So all of the depictions of the Jesus character are totally imaginary. He can be whatever a person wants him to be as long as he is depicted as a Jew from the tribe of Judah.
Mohammed was supposedly an Arab and white. But Arabs come in all colors although the US Supreme Court classified Arabs as whites. So Mohammed should always be depicted as a white man with red or black and white hair with lice and with a large mole on his back by the left shoulder and that would be accurate per the fairy tale.
RE: "no one depicts him in movies"
I don’t know why the devil wears pants, but I know that he has a size 8 foot.
The ruins of Tintern Abbey sit in the Wye Valley in far western England. Overlooking the abbey is a limestone outcrop, the Devil’s Pulpit, which affords one great views of the ruins and said abbey.
However, as you turn from the pulpit to walk back to Offa’s Dyke, there is an indentation in the rock, into which perfectly fit my size 8 Wellington Boot.
Clearly, Satan himself seared that into the rock when he left. ;-)
Satan has an unbelievably small penis. That is why he wears a loin cloth. Incidentally, it may be the reason he’s so evil. God gave him the most power of all the angels - along with a tiny schlong. So, go figure. I’d be mad too. I’d want revenge!!!
The Micro-phallus has spoken. Rat baby, long time no see. How is the overload's case of syphilis doing? I sent him a Get well card with a prayer/