Why I am an atheist

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MrGreen78's picture
Why I am an atheist

There are two reasons why I am an atheist. One of the reasons is because of arguments from evil, especially logical arguments. The second reason is the argument from non-belief. I want to explain them in a bit more detail.

I have extreme difficulty reconciling any kind of omnipotent, omniscient, and omnibenevolent deity with cruelty and suffering. I have been studying quite a few logical arguments from evil. The one that impresses me most is Luke Tracey's logical argument, which is an argument against "perfect-being theism". Others I tend to find less impressive and less persuasive. I have read Raymond Bradley's logical proof (which is part of his larger critique of Alvin Plantinga's free will defense) and I don't find Bradley's argument at all sound but I intuitively agree with it. I have read Quentin Smith's logical argument from evil but it seems a bit on the technical side for me and he uses terms that I am unfamiliar with it so I cannot judge it a success or not.

I have read Ryan Stringer's argument and I find it less impressive. While I agree that it's valid, I have doubts regarding its soundness and I strongly question one of the premises. I am studying an argument by H.J. McCloskey. I plan to engage with Christian apologists over whether Tracey's and Smith's arguments are logically sound or not. The problem of cruelty and suffering is the biggest problem for me. I realize that some theists of a moral liberal bent might argue that God need not be understood as omnipotent and/or omniscient. They might argue for a "limited being" defense and theodicy. Maybe God cannot prevent cruelty and suffering because he doesn't have the knowledge or he is not powerful enough.

The argument from non-belief is the reason I reject limited theism. If there was a limited deity and the existence of such a deity was logically compatible with evil, I would at least expect this deity to somehow reveal her/him/itself to humanity. I would at least expect such a deity to make her/him/itself known and reveal that she/he/it doesn't have the knowledge and/or ability to prevent evil. Such a being supposedly fine-tuned our known universe so I imagine that such a being could convince me of his/her/its reality to me and other atheists. If such a being desired that all human beings accept his/her/its existence as real, then surely such a being could make believers out of all human beings.

Anyways, these two reasons are the biggest reasons I am an atheist.

Here are the links to the logical arguments mentioned above:

Luke Tracey's logical argument from evil: https://infidels.org/library/modern/luke_tracey/logical-evil.html

Ryan Stringer's logical argument: https://infidels.org/library/modern/ryan_stringer/logical-evil.html

Quentin Smith's logical argument: http://www.apologeticsinthechurch.com/uploads/7/4/5/6/7456646/smith-a-so...

Raymond Bradley's critique of free will and his proof: https://infidels.org/library/modern/raymond_bradley/fwd-refuted.html

McCloskey's argument: http://commonsenseatheism.com/wp-content/uploads/2009/09/McCloskey-God-a...

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bigbill's picture
well If you hear William lane

well If you hear William lane craigs explanation that god may have a reason unknown to mankind for allowing that particular evil and suffering they cause to humanity. also the bible does say that mankind is born with an original sin leading them to commit evil and suffering acts.That`s the explanation for moral evils as for naturalistic types of evil they say apologist that is because of the fall.

bigbill's picture
you selecting atheism is a

you selecting atheism is a dogmatic belied in no God, You can`t say that because there just may be. You should be agnostic then by saying I just don`t know if there is one, One way or another. You can`t prove that there is a God or isn`t from deductive arguments.So where back to square one here.

MrGreen78's picture
So, you define atheism as a

So, you define atheism as a "dogmatic belief in no God". Why define it that way and why should I agree with such a definition? I believe that it's highly likely that no divine beings exist. There's nothing dogmatic about that as far as I can tell. "You can't say that because there just may be." I never said, dogmatically, that "there is no God". I said that I have extreme difficulty in reconciling an omnipotent, omniscient, and omnibenevolent being with cruelty and suffering. Why? Because I agree intuitively with Bradley's logical argument from evil although I am dissatisfied with his particular proof. Is that dogmatic to you?

I can't prove that there is a God or isn't from deductive arguments? Well, I gave a link to number of them. Perhaps you would like to go through each of them and critique the arguments?

bigbill's picture
Matthew the reason I say this

Matthew the reason I say this is because your so certain that there is no GOD, that is a strong belief one that doesn``t allow any thing other then your explanation to enter the conversation,that is what I mean by dogmatic. You sound like your 100% sure that there is no God and you can`t prove that.

LogicFTW's picture
I do not know about Matthew,

I do not know about Matthew, but I strongly believe it is more likely a sole winning 1 billion dollar lottery jackpot will float into my outstretched hand in the next 5 seconds is more likely than your god existing, (or any major religion god.)

I am so confident that there is no god I am absolutely willing to bet an eternity of torment that there is no god.

I have a standing challenge to your god, and any other god, to strike me down where I stand because I am not scared of them, they do not exist, and if they did, they are powerless to do anything to me. I have had this standing challenge for over 15 years now, and so far I would say I have had a great life with lots of good fortune, because I know I make my own fortune and luck.

The only aspect of "god" that scares me is the religious whackos of the various religions that kill or hurt in their god's name. Ya know one of the many evil and awful aspects of organized religion. Nothing is absolutely sure, but now you know the measure of how confident I am.

The evidence, logic and reasoning against any "god" idea is a lot just by itself. Throw in religious books and history of any major religion and it allows me to be supremely confident that those gods definitely do not exist. I am 1000's of times more confident that there is no god, then you are confident that there is a god.

Amber Horner's picture
Science, I hear you on this.

Science, I hear you on this. However, in almost every forum you debate in, that you "always" and I mean "always here," dont allow anything other than your explanation to enter a conversation. Thus begs the question, do you really care to read and listen to these posts, or simply employ your own dogmatic christian beliefs on others in a an attempt to convert or change their way of believing. Cant you simply state that the principles governed within this post do not agree with yours and state why, other than non coherent scripture reiterations that the post clearly proved are not provable? I dont mean to be rash here, just think about how you always throw out a bible verse and then dont back it up with any sort of further evidence than the scripture word itself. Scratches head here....Can you please state some sources to validate your position? I would love to see them.

mykcob4's picture
Don't listen to science

Don't listen to science follower. He doesn't know if he is a believer or agnostic half the time. He can't and refuses to ever provide any proof of anything he claims. His one true god is Trump.
When he says that can't prove there isn't a god, he ignores the fact that you can't disprove any fucked up fantasy.
So MatthewG please have confidence in what you have posted here because it is a far more reasonable statement than any statement posted by science follower.

bigbill's picture
As a devils advocate here You

As a devils advocate here You see how baseless are the arguments of atheist. They can`t disprove the existence for god or allow evil and suffering, and this is just a sample how they lack truth. they lack the proper credentials as atheist. There only living for this world not the promised next as Christianity espouses.

CyberLN's picture
SF, you said, " they lack the

SF, you said, " they lack the proper credentials as atheist."

There are credentials? Wow! I want them then! Who issues them? What are the requirements to get them? Is there a test? I hate tests. Where do I go to get them? Do you have a web site link?

mykcob4's picture

BULL-FUCKING-SHIT science follower!
It makes no sense to disprove a god since a god has never been proven in the first place. What is "baseless" is the idea of a god in the first place.
As for lacking truth, why don't you just prove a god, present the truth that YOu say only YOU have. Christianity only "promises" an afterlife, they haven't produced it or proven that it exists. Your hypocritical rant is just that, a fucking lie!

bigbill's picture
please don`t use so much

please don`t use so much profanity, I will answer your comments but please no need to use such language. I believe the God of Abraham isaac and Jacob of the old testament and I believe Jesus Christ. Just look how God moved in the old and new testaments.william lane craig presents 5 arguments for why he feels its probable there is a god compared to just naturalistic means. Number 1 the cosmological 2-the design argument 3- the moral argument 4 and the life and teaching of jesus Christ. 5- our own personnel experience. Why don`t you look them up AND then we can discuss further.

bigbill's picture
algebe's picture
Let's take William Craig's

Let's take William Craig's arguments apart one at time. I'll look first at his third argument, which he calls the "Teleological Argument".
"scientists have discovered that the existence of intelligent life depends upon a complex and delicate balance of initial conditions given in the Big Bang itself. This is known as the fine-tuning of the universe."

Physics tells us that certain values in the universe, such as gravity, the electromagnetic force, the nuclear force, are perfect for our existence, and if they were even slightly different we wouldn't exist at all.

The answer to this is quite simple. How many iterations of the universe/multiverse have there been in which these conditions were wrong for the development of intelligent life? And if the conditions were wrong in this universe, we wouldn't be sitting here talking about them. Because we think we're the most important beings in the history of reality, we assume that the universe must have been created exactly this way for our sole benefit. How incredibly arrogant.

bigbill's picture
well the teleological

well the teleological argument explains why there is I feel only one universe and we don`t have life on any other planet, This universe was just made for humans. AS for the multiverse it is only a guess right now with no substantial proof current study in cosmology rules it out. Hawkins etc.No algebe this universe this all there is and made perfect with the consanants for life.

algebe's picture
@Science follower: "This

@Science follower: "This universe was just made for humans."

LOL. It's all about you, isn't it.

Amber Horner's picture


Again....you stated " I feel" ???? good luck with that in college, have some selfless comment not predicated on ego for once in your ever confused state of mind...please...I beg of thee.

LogicFTW's picture
Your link for 5 arguments for

Your link for 5 arguments for god.

1. Cosmological argument.
Even if we accept their must be a "first" cause that does not have a cause proceed it... cause magic? That can be any greater entity we humans can dream up with. My rainbow farting unicorn god I just made up is just as, or more plausible than your god. (Does not have a whole book of provable false hoods and logic holes/contradictions dragging it down.) It does not proove your particular god in any way.

2. Number 2 is the number 1 argument again just simplified. Wow they cannot even come up with 5!

3. The moral argument. I already addressed this down below, but it is a play on words. Look up the definition of objective. It does not include ideas.

4. Intelligent design. A puddle if it had thoughts, would think wow, this pothole is perfectly fit for my shape! How amazing! It was like it was meant to be! Also, 14 billion years, trillions of stars, zillions and zillions and zillions of atoms all interacting with each other, complex life makes perfect sense given that scale of time and number of interactions.

5. Ontological argument. Is word salad. You could use that argument to prove anything exist. That everything exist.

--- Also, every last argument presented here, in no way proves your god that you worship, even if you accepted every argument as true. Every single argument also proves my rainbow farting unicorn god I just made up exist as well if you were to accept all of them.

"Tell me why you do not believe in other gods, and I will tell you why I do not believe in yours."
To believe in any major religion god requires enormous leaps of faith, and for you to shut down all critical thinking, reasoning and logic skills based on real world evidence that you employ in most other aspects in your life.

bigbill's picture
logic for todays world:

logic for todays world: according to the bible the fool says in his heart there is no God: I believe in the Judean Christian God because judism was reconised by the birth and life of Jesus Christ, all the other religions are false According to the bible there is one god notGods that`s why I am not a polytheist, there are great scholars and men of science who believe in a god with more logic then yourself tw. Jesus said blessed are they who believe in me, I have been blessed in this life tw, So I take jesus for his word.He died for me for which I am forvever grateful. And I will live my life according to his precepts.

LogicFTW's picture
So a book with an agenda told

So a book with an agenda told you...

I could write a fictional book about a fictional god that says my god is right and yours is wrong. How do you refute that?

bigbill's picture
But can you prove that your

But can you prove that your god once existed here? My lord Jesus Christ according to recent scholarship here says that he lived, We have other Medicine educational institutions like people writing about his message here. your book is only your thoughts while we have the arts music sculpture paintings all kind of things have come down from Christianity that we enjoy.What I`m saying it isn`t only in a book called the bible but we have other contributing factors here.also there have ben other books like the koran and I know that Jesus died on the cross not somebody else like the koran espouses.I can comprehend that other books are not accurate, It`s like how do you know that something is crooked, You measure it against some thing straight.I know that Christianity and the bible is Gods revelation to humanity.

LogicFTW's picture
I can't prove that the

I can't prove that the rainbow farting unicorn god exist anymore then you can prove your god. All the proof you got is that simply more people believed in a variation of your religion then my made up god idea, that your idea has been around for a while. Sure your religion idea has more people behind it, but it also has a ridiculous bible behind it with all of its contradictions, inaccuracies, logic flaws, reasoning holes and out right lies. My unicorn god idea has none of that. But it does have the same 5 arguments for its existence and you presented for your god.

If you want to argue your god is real because it's popular, then why is has it not even reached majority? There is a lot more art out there that is not about your god but some other god, lots more people out there that do not believe in your god then people that do. Lots of people within your own "christianity" religion that disagree strongly on lots of major points. There is tons of strong disagreement about which bible is the correct bible. And the history of christianity religion is one that can be summed up in violence and conquest, what an awful religion. That only has a few small redeeming factors (a bit of charity work) against a mountain of horrible things done in your gods name.

Amber Horner's picture
For fuck sakes, holy moley!

For fuck sakes, holy moley! and Ill say fuck if I want to, I am not here to adhere to your feeble mind.

"According to the bible"...hmmmm.... well according to logicTW, the farting unicorn god seems a plausible reason for me to investigate this further, of course, also according to your presentations set forth above. And all this I, I, Me me talk makes me want to fart right now, you must be a constipated guy? If the farting Unicorn said blessed are those who believe in me, I might be happy to oblige to his calling, because its just as rational as believing in god christ or whatever lunatic who made him up.

mykcob4's picture
@science follower

@science follower
I will use profanity if I fucking want to.
It has been proven to exhaustion that morals come from society, not christianity and that morality is not objective.
The bible is not a credible source for anything. It is a bunch of folklore stories stolen by multiple cultures that have nothing to do with christianity. Cultures that christianity has deemed based on mythology.
William Lane Craig is a known charlatan and a fraud. None of his theories have merit nor do they stand peer review scrutiny.
The "intelligent design" theory is not credible. The simple reason is, just saying things are organized and making a leap of faith and claiming that organization was by a god isn't real proof. So step 1s argument (cosmology) is a fallacy. 1 & 2 are the same argument. 3 I addressed. 5 jesus has never been proven to have ever been so that isn't proof. 5 personal experience is hearsay and cannot be verified so it isn't proof.
So, you have FAILED to prove your god.

bigbill's picture
mykcob4: atheism is a

mykcob4: atheism is a bankrupt position to adhere to. to believe that all the world hAS TO offer came by accident is a baseless position.atoms and molecules are you serious? you know it only weakens your arguments when you use profanity as you do.Nobody pays any attention to what your points are. In all seriousness you got a problem here!!!!!. You need help, And I can recommend where you can get it. Repent and believe I n jesus Christ the gospel has helped and reformed more people with much more problems then what you have. You are a vile person, seek help now,clear the dust off your bible and believe you see if you give jesus a chance he will in due time change you from the inside out. I can see you have a lot of anger in you Jesus is the remedy for you, god bless you billy

algebe's picture
@Science follower: "god bless

@Science follower: "god bless you billy"

Who the hell is billy, and why should god bless him?

bigbill's picture
god wants to bless me, I am

god wants to bless me, I am billy, I do the fathers will so he blesses me simple as that I am very blessed, you can be to if you repent all that you stated in all your post your profanity and all and turn your life of foolish unbelief to Jesus Christ. He will transform you from the inside out I see your very obstinate in your post, He will heal you of that defect. You should turn your life over to Jesus he will give you a new heart. Youll see the difference the more you come to the light the less darkness you will have. Right now your what paul said is carnal nature and you feel that it is foolish to believe in God, But what is really happening here is your the fool, the devil is sifting you like wheat, and you can`t even comprehend it because you really walk in darkness.

algebe's picture
@Science follower: "You

@Science follower: "You should turn your life over to Jesus he will give you a new heart."

LOL. Keep on trying Billy. My heart is fine, and my arteries are also ok now thanks to science. I don't really feel like turning my life over to a man who's been pushing up daisies in Jerusalem for the past 2,000 years.

You've got no right to censor anyone's language use here. Obscenity/profanity has its place. It's good for pain relief, for example. I try to use it sparingly, though, or it can lose its power. If I say "fuck" when I can't find the TV remote, what am I going to say when hammer my thumb instead of the nail?

bigbill's picture
Jesus said its what comes out

Jesus said its what comes out of man that determines what character he has, No there is no reason at all to either say or write profanity, and please don`t try any of your excuses like its good for pain relief. no it only reinforces more profanity and more anger and tension, So your completely wrong here in your belief.

algebe's picture
@Science follower: "Jesus

@Science follower: "Jesus said its what comes out of man that determines what character he has"

No. Somebody said that they'd heard somebody else say that his brother's father-in-law's cousin might have heard someone who looked a bit like Jesus say something that sounded vaguely like that 50 years earlier. In other words, nobody knows what Jesus said or didn't say, or whether he really lived or not. So your imaginary quotes cut no mustard here.

Profanity releases anger and tension. It doesn't reinforce it. I got involved in a road rage incident with a real nutcase yesterday. He lost his temper when I told him to shift his car, which was blocking the whole road. He came at me with fists clenched, and I thought I was going to have to knock some sense into his thick skull, but in the end he said "fucking this" and "shit that" a few times until he gradually deflated and walked away mumbling. That saved him from going to hospital/jail and me from getting grazes on my knuckles. So I'm grateful for obscenity and dashcams.

mykcob4's picture
@science follower

@science follower
there is no god that ever helped anyone because there is no god. Believing in a myth is a bankrupt position. Requiring PROOF is logical which is what atheism really is.
I don't need help you do. Look at all the agrees and disagrees. I'd say NO ONE believes you.
I'm a vile person, PSHAW. I cuss, so what? Are you so fragile that you can't handle profanity? That is why I use profanity, to weed out the weak tits!


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