Why Islam makes no sense

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Paola Gutierrez's picture
Why Islam makes no sense

So recently I've been having this debate with someone who believes in Islam (people who just love to keep repeating that it is absolute truth) and it seems like no matter what I say, they find a way to make sense through the Qur'an. It's unfair to say the least, defending your religious standpoint with your religious standpoint; it's a circular method. I've read a bit of Qur'an but haven't gotten around to finishing it... for those of you with more knowledge, how would you assert that Islam is generally unreliable or perhaps even useless for our modern society- just like every other religion?

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Travis Hedglin's picture
Well, I'm a bit of a shit, so

Well, I'm a bit of a shit, so I usually send them this lovely music video:

https://youtu.be/POJdu4HV-Ng

Nutmeg's picture
That's very good. I didn't

That's very good. I didn't know it was that accurate. I like the bit about the birds dropping stones, that strikes a chord.

Travis Hedglin's picture
You should check out the guy

You should check out the guy who wrote it(the rationalizer), some of his videos are even better than the song, and all of it pales in comparison to his epic mustache.

Paola Gutierrez's picture
This was hilarious! Thanks

This was hilarious! Thanks for the link.

SeanBreen's picture
@ Lolax01 "So recently I've

@ Lolax01 "So recently I've been having this debate with someone who believes in Islam (people who just love to keep repeating that it is absolute truth) and it seems like no matter what I say, they find a way to make sense through the Qur'an. It's unfair to say the least, defending your religious standpoint with your religious standpoint; it's a circular method. I've read a bit of Qur'an but haven't gotten around to finishing it... for those of you with more knowledge, how would you assert that Islam is generally unreliable or perhaps even useless for our modern society- just like every other religion?"

Islam, in particular, is a religion that in Western cultures is synonymized with a fundamental opposition to intellectualism, but actually, there have been, and still are, sects of Islam that don't propagate the whole "subdue everyone; create Sharia; deny education; hate women" mantra that gets sensationalized in the Western media. That's not to say that Islam is a genuine intellectual belief, nor even that it should be ridiculed any less than Christianity, but it's just to say that with many Muslims you can reach them using the same complex, educated, logical arguments you use when addressing a Christian (remember the two religions are fundamentally linked to the same sourse: Judaism and the Abrahamic God).

In a recent thread of yours, you posed a question regarding free will and predeterminism. The argument I presented there (which it seemed like a lot of people agreed with) is a universal argument that can be applied to any Abrahamic religion, and if you apply that argument within the context of evil, it's impossible to come to any other conclusion than; everything is a direct result of God's choice. That includes the HItlers, the Stalins, the Maos, the fact that murder happens, war happens, hate happens, spite happens. Essentially, if God exists (which if course you and I know he does not) then the God-chosen paradigm is a direct result of God's foresight, power, will and choice. This alone shatters any and all of these religions' claims of God's benevolence, his apportionment of "choice" (which of course in a God-chosen paradigm is an illusion) and any of these ideas that there are things God doesn't "want". If he didn't want them, he wouldn't have chosen them specifically out of all the possible paradigms of existence from which he could choose from.

In summation, there is a direct violation of the logical law of non-contradiction in Abrahamic religions, because they profess of things that are against "God's will". But as we can show, nothing is against God's will. In fact, if God exists, then everything that exists is a direct PRODUCT of God's will.

Try putting that argument across and watch them twist themselves into what I like to call an "apologist's pretzel". If reasoning doesn't work with them, then encourage them to take a look at the Nizari sect of Islam (a more moderate sect than most). Their most fundamental principles are the belief in using human reason, accepting and even promoting pluralism, and seeking equality for everyone in the eyes of the law. Even if you could plant the seed, that might encourage them away from contradictory, strict, mindless fundamentalism into something that is at least tolerant of the use of genuine human reason. And after that, who knows?

Paola Gutierrez's picture
This is great. However, this

This is great. However, this person for some reason can not logically comprehend how it's impossible for pre-determinism and free-will to coexist no matter how different angles I strike at it. I'm not sure if they just genuinely don't understand or they refuse to because it's easy to say that if God doesn't directly control your decisions, then you do have the freedom of deciding. It'd be nice if they admitted they can't freely choose or that these choices were not freely brought upon on our own, but that we do have choices (as Travis said before.) At least then you could find some sense. So I feel like this argument falls apart if they can not even grasp the basis, you know?

M.Yousuf's picture
Change your future, I think

Change your future, I think you can

Vincent Paul Tran1's picture
I start with a punch to the

I start with a punch to the gut, Mohammad didn't even write the Qu'ran. His flunkies did. This is an indisputable reality even among The Muslims

Nutmeg's picture
The boss always delegates, no

The boss always delegates, no? He probably edited the thing, took anything too lax.

Vincent Paul Tran1's picture
you can't demand that your

you can't demand that your work is divinely inspired if you yourself did not write it. and he didn't edit because he is proven to have been illiterate

Nutmeg's picture
Maybe he listened to what the

Maybe he listened to what the allah thing told him, and repeated it to his lackeys, and then had them read it back. That would work.

Travis Hedglin's picture
Perhaps, but it doesn't fix

Perhaps, but it doesn't fix the fact that the allah thing was a voice in his head, likely due to schizophrenia.

Nutmeg's picture
That may be so, or it may not

That may be so, or it may not: the effects of a voice in the head or the voice of allah would be indistinguishable to the people receiving the message. That wasn't the point you made, though; the fact that Mo didn't actually write it down doesn't invalidate it.

Vincent Paul Tran1's picture
it does, however, lead to the

it does, however, lead to the possibility of distortions. The further you get from the source, the more chefs in the pot, the more likely misappropriations are to occur

Cheers :)

Nutmeg's picture
I went on a management course

I went on a management course when I was working in NYC, and they had us repeat a short story to the next person, who would repeat it to the next, and so on. By the fifth iteration it was unrecognisable. So you're undoubtedly right.

jamalt's picture
Islam is Simple. Islam is

Islam is Simple. Islam is based on faith…Don’t make any remarks based on the intellect or logic because they are Laws of Allah.

“O you who have believed, do not ask about things which, if they are shown to you, will distress you…. people asked such before you; then they became thereby disbelievers.” — Qur’an 5:101, 102

The intellect is governed by desires and it is influence by shaitan (satan). Don’t be ruled by desires and rudderless comments

There are six basic beliefs shared by all Muslims:

Belief in One God, the one and only one worthy of all worship.
Belief in the Angels.
Belief in the Book (al-Quran / Koran) (sent by God).
Belief in all the Prophets and Messengers (sent by God).
Belief in the Day of Judgment (Qiyamah) and in the Resurrection.
Belief in Fate (Qadar)

ThePragmatic's picture
@Jamal

@Jamal

Is it really so simple? You can't seem to answer me what makes you trust the Quran, instead you just blurt out quotes from it and some random questions.

Without quoting the Quran or Hadith, can you come up with any kind of answer?

jamalt's picture
I have but you don't seem to

I have but you don't seem to agree. I wish to talk to you someday in detail. I promise never to leave you in doubt if that happens. How can you trust something or someone without getting to know them? I got to know everything with time. Its not that difficult to understand the religion of Abraham who submitted to One God. Nor its difficult to understand Quran as its to the point and clears every misunderstanding. Again.. Dont think I dont know about Atheism or Religions. I do. That's why im here. And im here for everyone. Not to convert or anything. But I feel everyone has the right to know. Everyone has the right to be on the right path. Its responsibility of those who are on the right path. What made me think im on the right path? Because the path leads to nothing but Good and success in the hereafter. and believing in one of God and God of all prophets peace be upon them is the right path. That's all.

CyberLN's picture
"Its not that difficult to

"Its not that difficult to understand the religion of Abraham who submitted to One God. Nor its difficult to understand Quran as its to the point and clears every misunderstanding."

It's also not difficult to figure out its all hogwash.

" Again.. Dont think I dont know about Atheism or Religions. I do."

Really? What do you know about atheism?

"That's why im here. And im here for everyone."

Then why do you avoid answering so many questions?

"Not to convert or anything. But I feel everyone has the right to know. Everyone has the right to be on the right path. Its responsibility of those who are on the right path. What made me think im on the right path? Because the path leads to nothing but Good and success in the hereafter. and believing in one of God and God of all prophets peace be upon them is the right path. That's all."

That, Jamal, is called a contradiction. You are not here to convert anyone but you are here to convert people.

ThePragmatic's picture
@Jamal

@Jamal

"I have but you don't seem to agree."

If you did answer, I must have missed it. All I have seen are random questions and quotes from the Quran, no answers with your own words. I'm asking you, not the Quran.

"Nor its difficult to understand Quran as its to the point and clears every misunderstanding."

Please, educate me on this, since I seriously doubt that it clears every misunderstanding.
If I may ask, what denomination within Islam do you adhere to?
How many denominations are there? How many branches of belief and interpretation of the Quran?

"Dont think I dont know about Atheism or Religions. I do. That's why im here."

Okay. Then you should have no problem answering the question: What makes you trust the Quran over all the other religious scriptures? How do you know it is true?

"I feel everyone has the right to know. Everyone has the right to be on the right path. Its responsibility of those who are on the right path"

That's admirable. But I would first like to know, how you know that you are in fact on the right path?

"Because the path leads to nothing but Good and success in the hereafter. and believing in one of God and God of all prophets peace be upon them is the right path."

From my point of view, the above "answer", is not a real answer.
In essence, you are saying: I'm sure because I'm sure.

Let's break it down a bit...

"the path leads to nothing but Good and success in the hereafter."

How do you know that the path leads to "good and success"? And how can you claim to know anything at all about the hereafter (I assume you mean the afterlife)??

"and believing in one of God and God of all prophets peace be upon them is the right path."

How can you know that there is any god at all, and how do you know you worship the right one?
How do you know that believing in that god would bring you on a path that is right?
What does it even mean that the path is "right"?

jamalt's picture
There have been denominations

There have been denominations and divisions over time but the majority sticks to one belief which is to believe in One of Allah, The Holy Quran and the Last Prophet Muhammad Pbuh. (Sunnah)

Prophet Muhammad said:

And if the people of Israel were fragmented into seventy-two sects, my Ummah will be fragmented into seventy-three sects. All of them will be in Hell Fire except one sect. The noble Companions asked: O Allah's Messenger (saws), which one is that? Whereupon he (saws) said: It is one to which I and my companions belong.

Sahih Muslim Hadith 1885 Narrated by Jabir ibn Abdullah
That the Prophet of Allah (saws) said in a sermon: The best speech is that which is embodied in the Book of Allah, the Al Quran; and the best guidance is the guidance given by me, Mohamed (saws).

The one who follows the Qur’aan, Sunnah and scholarly consensus is on the right path.

ThePragmatic's picture
@Jamal

@Jamal

"There have been denominations and divisions over time but the majority sticks to one belief which is to believe in One of Allah, The Holy Quran and the Last Prophet Muhammad"

Perhaps you consider all denominations as valid Muslims, but many others do not. But this is not the main issue.

I noticed that you avoided answering just about every question I asked.
The main question remains completely unanswered:
- What makes you trust the Quran? How do you know it is true?

Now, I would like to clarify that I'm asking you for your personal opinion and convictions. I'm not interested in quotes from the Quran of Hadith, since I don't think of them as true at all. That is the reason I'm specifically asking you to give me an explanation, as to why you think the Quran is true.

Somewhere, at some point in your life, you must have been taught about Allah and the Quran by someone. At some point you felt that Islam is true.

What happened and what convinced you?

As an atheists who simply lacks faith in any and all gods, I would believe if there was enough convincing evidence to support that it is true.

ThePragmatic's picture
@Jamal

@Jamal

It's a bit disappointing that you won't answer. Especially after writing: "I wish to talk to you someday in detail. I promise never to leave you in doubt if that happens."

Please, at least say why you avoid answering.
Is that you don't know? Is it too distressing to talk about? Is there another reason?

ThePragmatic's picture
@Jamal Still no answer?

@Jamal

Still no answer?

ThePragmatic's picture
Hello? "The number you have

Hello?

ThePragmatic's picture
@Jamal

@Jamal

With all due respect. I really don't understand why a confident believer would avoid answering questions like these.

* If you want others to study the Quran, you should be enthusiastic to provide credibility to it.
* If you are sure that your beliefs are true, you should be able to answer such questions without hesitation.
* If you know your god exists, I would expect fearless confidence.

If, on the other hand, your beliefs are fragile, avoiding to answer is exactly what I would expect...

jamalt's picture
Hello & Sorry I must have

Hello & Sorry I must have overlooked earlier but now that you've pointed im right here.

Yes I was born in a muslim family and finished reading Quran at the Age of 13. At the time obviously I had not much idea about the basic beliefs and reason behind many things. But then I got busy with studies and jobs and hardly pondered much over it. And I feel regretted for that. I'm 30 now. I used to pray at times but now I do it regularly. But still its never too late and this year I got to listen to it in detail and also read it and listen to the interpretations of different chapters. I'm glad that I did so. I didnt have much knowledge before and that's why I lacked in Faith. but as soon as I started listening and reading it made so much sense about everything. Way of life, commandments, what's right and wrong, heaven and hell, Quran talks about Polytheists, christians and Jews and all Prophets so beautifully and sensibly. Allah says follow the religion of Abraham who never associated any partners. Allah knows his creation the best and Allah talks to you in a very beautiful and touchy way that melts you heart. Allah asks which of the favors will you deny? Allah asks after reading everything the favors and creation and blessings will you still not believe? Allah says he wants us to be purified so we should keep ourselves clean and we should be brothers to one another and also take care of widows and orphans. We should not be dishonest and wrongdoers. We should respect and be loving. Quran used the word Mercy, Compassion and Forgiveness 355 times.

Dear all, We all know that this world is gonna end someday and we will die oneday. And just like we were put in this world we will be put infront of our creator. So should we not prepare ourselves before we meet the creator? Allah loves to meet those who Loves to meet Allah. Allah is One God. Muhammad peace be upon him is his last messenger. Read the Quran which was sent for all of us. Evidence is all there in the Quran. There have been generations that were destroyed because they disbelieved. They were like some of us who disbelieve after the Book have come to them. This life's short but the eternal one is not.

Now its upto us to live in denial or be of those who believe and have faith. Think of a definition that fits God. And then do some research of Islam. Live you life in peace and loving others and praying to One God. The reward lies with no one but Allah. Allah says not a single deed will go to waste. We will be recompensed for everything we do. Quran talks about reward and talks about punishments. Its upto us now to choose. we still have time.

May Allah guide us all. Ameen

Vincent Paul Tran's picture
Jamal, I don't think you had

Jamal, I don't think you had made a case for Islam specifically in this post. I could copy and paste what you said into any other faith with promises of an afterlife, whether it be Christianity or Buddhism.

Could you please make that distinction?

Thanks

ThePragmatic's picture
@Jamal

@Jamal

Thank you for the reply. :)

"Quran talks about..."

"Allah asks after reading everything the favors and creation and blessings will you still not believe?"

"Quran talks about..."

"Evidence is all there in the Quran."

"Quran talks about..."

I'm sorry. But, do you not understand that the Quran is not it's own evidence? The Quran cannot corroborate itself.

Every other religion tries to defend itself in the very same way as you just did: The evidence is there, just read the book.
This simply does not in any way compel anyone to believe the Quran is true.

It seems to me, you simply believe the Quran is true, because you have been told that it is.
My question remains unanswered:

- What makes you trust the Quran? How do you know it is true?

To clarify:

- What makes you think the Quran is true and not (for example) the Bible?

Something has to make you trust the Quran more than other religious scriptures, what?

jamalt's picture
Oneness of God- Allah

Oneness of God- Allah

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