Why is it wrong to think the universe came from nothing?

73 posts / 0 new

Thu, 12/13/2018 - 04:20

David Killens

Here's an analogy.

Imagine you are in the lobby of a hotel, and see an indistinguishable and complete stranger enter the hotel through the front doors. If asked "where did that person come from?" all you can state is that you first observed that person at the hotel entrance, and do not know what happened before that.

Fri, 12/14/2018 - 02:34

(Reply to #62) #63

Cognostic

LOL: Could you actually say

LOL: Could you actually say that? What if he was indistinguishable from the floor or the wall? What could you say about him then? What if you could not distinguish him from your self? I just don't know what to do with an indistinguishable complete stranger? If he is indistinguishable, how did I figure out he was a stranger? I am so confused!

Fri, 12/14/2018 - 01:05

#64

TheBlindWatchmaker

Let us not forget though,

Let us not forget though, that the 'singularity' is a prediction of the big bang theory using classical general relativity.

What we do know is that 13.7b years ago, the universe was in a hot, dense and rapidly expanding state (the big bang).
It is not necessarily the beginning of the universe, despite 'we' all talk about it being so.

We shouldn't think of it as the beginning of the universe, but as the ending of what we currently know.

What is really needed is something like a theory of quantum gravity in order to better understand.

Fri, 12/14/2018 - 02:36

#65

Cognostic

Nicely said. We shouldn't

Nicely said. We shouldn't think of it as the beginning of the universe, but as the ending of what we currently know.

Fri, 12/14/2018 - 03:10

(Reply to #65) #66

TheBlindWatchmaker

Thank you, Its important to

Thank you, Its important to differentiate between,
a) the big bang model
b) the big bang event

One is empirically sound, the other is not.

Fri, 12/14/2018 - 05:25

(Reply to #66) #67

arakish

Try getting a theist to

Try getting a theist to understand that. I have tried, but they always use Diotrephes example that there had to have been "nothing" before. Thus, goddidititis. Horrible disease...

rmfr

Fri, 12/14/2018 - 05:58

(Reply to #67) #68

TheBlindWatchmaker

Well that point of view is

Well that point of view is severely flawed, even when considering a theory such as inflation.
People may speculate that in that case there must have been a beginning, but this is simply not true.

There are many theories of what space-time can do, for example a classical space-time assumption could regress to a singularity.
However, we know that we do not live in a classical world and that we have quantum mechanics which explain far better.

If you have a time depending quantum state, it is extendable infinitely into the past.

It is more likely that the universe is infinite into the past as it is into the future.

Fri, 12/14/2018 - 06:21

(Reply to #68) #69

arakish

@ TheBlindWatchmaker

If you have a time depending quantum state, it is extendable infinitely into the past.

It is more likely that the universe is infinite into the past as it is into the future.

And that has always been my premise. The universe has and shall exist forever. No Iluvatar deity or magical Valar needed.

However, most people are incapable of grasping such an idea as infinity. Yet, they also choose to believe in a god that is spaceless, timeless, incorporeal, outside of this universe; sounds like infinity to me.

rmfr

Fri, 12/14/2018 - 06:49

(Reply to #69) #70

TheBlindWatchmaker

Yet, they also choose to

Yet, they also choose to believe in a god that is spaceless, timeless, incorporeal, outside of this universe; sounds like infinity to me.

The outside of the universe/reality arguement is the one I find most amusing.

Fri, 12/14/2018 - 07:42

(Reply to #70) #71

Cognostic

Unfounded assertions seem to

Unfounded assertions seem to attract the ignorant like flies so they can pretend they know shit when they don't. Diotrephes comments are in the running for the idiot comments of the month. Religiosity is certainly like a virus. It will always infect the weakened and unprotected mind.

Fri, 12/14/2018 - 08:48

(Reply to #71) #72

arakish

@ Cog: To use a euphemism;

@ Cog: To use a euphemism; Amen, Brother.

Weak minded persons are the only reason religion can exist.

rmfr

Mon, 12/17/2018 - 10:53

#73

LogicFTW

@Thread

@Thread
Did not have time to read thread, so I apologize if I am repeating what others have already said.

@AUS-LGBT

I think the people that argue something can come from nothing are also frequently theist folks. But I do not recall who mentioned that sort of stuff.

There is nothing wrong "thinking" the universe came from nothing.

What is wrong: is to try to base any "claim" on it.

Like frequently theist people use the argument: "something can not come from nothing, therefore god."
That is making an unproven claim on another unproven claim. And grossly misrepresenting the general chemistry/physics rule of: within our known universe and knowledge of it: "you can not create something from nothing." When we are talking before the big bang, it is simply unknown, no claims can be made on it, it is a baseless claim and talking nonsense, it may as well be baby babble.

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