I've heard numerous people say that atheists are stuck up, "Mr. Know-it-alls" who think they're better than everyone. I can understand how they may view us as arrogant in some way when we discuss scientific things, but I've been looking through the t-shirts which are for sale and I think some are atrocious and quite heartless. If atheists really say or think like anything which is on those t-shirts, then I no wonder we get tarred as arrogant, know-it-alls.
T- shirts saying, "Support intelligence. Sleep with an atheist." and "I think therefore I'm atheist" are just asking for insults. "Science flies you to the moon. Religion flies you into buildings" is pretty heartless. I understand the point it makes about Islam and I agree, but I find it to be offensive to others who may have been affected by 9/11. Plus, if they were religious, it's practically saying that they're to blame for it.
What I'm trying to say is, we can't fight fire with fire. It's evident that not all religion is as peaceful and accepting as they make out, so there's no need for us to be insulting towards them. Offending will allow the fire to burn for longer which isn't what we want. People are gradually turning to atheism anyway so all we really have to do is sit and wait until the world eventually faces reality.
Does anyone else think that the t-shirts are a bit unnecessarily harsh?
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We are not really a homogeneous group of people, we only have on thing in common, a lack of belief in god/gods. What one atheist does doesn't reflect on me or other atheists. Besides if the worst thing atheists are doing is offending with T-shirts, I think we are doing okay. :D
I agree almost entirely with you- nothing that any one person does should be directly equated to the entire group. I only wish that theists would think of it that way instead of "I know a stuck-up atheist so they're all bad." Either way, I've seen plenty of "It's freedom of religion, not freedom from religion" t-shirts in my day, so . . .
Atheists often attack religious people by saying that they are stupid (in my experience, in an atheist family and with atheist associates). They call religious people judgmental, but who are they to talk when they are judging them at the same time? Many of them are guilty of having had a bad experience with a person from one religious group and so labeling most of the people in that group, which I disagree with but do not point out because then they accuse me of being religious, which I am not- I just think that everyone has a chance to be heard, even if they are wrong, and to have their opinion and beliefs respected. I also have a few religious friends (who accept me as a good person and as a firm non-believer, thank goodness) who do some of the same things, criticizing atheist's arguments, calling them judgmental, etc. (They never refer to the people as atheists, however, they just use broad terms because they respect me) As part of both of these groups and as a listener, I have found that rarely is it a group of people that has the bad traits, but the select loud-mouth ones who are so irrationally strong in their beliefs that they must put down those who believe anything else. I like Christians, I like Muslims, I approve of atheists, but I do not like judgmental people, who are a group not confined by the boundaries of belief.
Hi Myth,
I do indeed judge. I judge ideas, opinions, beliefs. Everyone does. I also judge individuals who are, IMO, rotten people. Everyone does, you included.
Additionally, criticizing someone's argument does not equal criticizing the person. And what the heck is wrong with criticizing someone's argument? It's called debate. It's healthy.
You say everyone's opinions and beliefs need to be respected. Nope. Only their right to hold those opinions and beliefs should be respected. There are a ton of opinions and beliefs that I, in no way, shape, or form, respect and never will.
You also say that you like Muslims and xtians. All of them? Or the few you happen to know? Do you like them because they are xtian or Muslim or because they happen to be likable? Your statement on its own, without those qualifiers is actually judgmental. It is grouping people together and making a sweeping determination about them...albeit the opposite determination from that which you have complained others are guilty of.
CyberLn, I am aware that I judge, and I apologize for coming off as, ironically, stuck-up. :) Everyone judges, it's human, we classify organisms, we classify places, and we classify people. While there are opinions and beliefs that I do not condone, I try to hear the person out before telling them why their opinion is wrong, because it is only when you see the source of the ignorance that you can remedy it. When saying that I like Christians, Muslims, etc., I mean as in the individuals I know. NOT as in the entire group because there are many people that I don't like in these groups as well, although I did phrase that badly. Nothing is wrong with criticizing someone's argument, until you get personal which, when discussing issues like religion, is very easy to do. I am referring to the instances when people get a little too personal in their arguments. Intelligent discussion and name calling are two different things and the one can easily morph into the other if people let it, which only convinces everyone that all other people are assholes. I am not saying most people are like this, I have seen a lot of intelligent, healthy discussions, but I have also seen a lot of "I'm right, you're wrong, and you should just see your ignorance" discussions.
Thanks for your response and the clarifications, Myth. They've made a difference and I understand your statements much better now. I do agree that ad hominems aren't productive debate. That being said, I sure get the frustration that leads to them. :-)
We're conceited? These people believe that the creator of the universe did so about 6000 years ago and did it for their benefit and they think we are stuck up?? That is absolutely absurd
This is a very old thread!
Hmm, I have often felt the same way about many but not all theist I have encountered,
I met this one guy, gave a speech, the most obnoxious inappropriate egomaniac speech ever given, with stuff like "you should not thank god, you should thank your friends, your family and yourself for having the strength to overcome what happen to you" "keep praying and nothing will happen, it was us with money and actions that saved you" and stuff like that, the guy had a point, but gave the speech at the welcome party to a dude that had been kidnapped and tortured for 3 months... that one time is the only time I've felt ashamed of my kind.
There are stupid atheists too. Just like there are intelligent christians who are open for debate but still have a primal fear towards god.
I dont judge based on an individual but i do judge based on the actions of a religion past and present. If you belong to a religion thats doing vile things but your nice then how can you rationalise belonging.
I firmly believe the christian church is guilty of crimes against humanity and should be disbanded if not face criminal trials. Im not saying christians should be forced to repent their belief. Its the organisation ive a problem with and so should the ordinary christians how they can allow all that is unfathomable.
Well put Lmale.
Yea I can be an arrogant prick.. It comes from frustration though, knowing that so many people are essentially living a lie. When you try to help them it often seems to push them further into deluded belief. It comes from knowing I'm the good guy, but being classed as the bad one. It's ironically arrogant to say the truth; it's frustrating to know you're right and they're wrong!
.. The t-shirts, however offensive they may be, are either jokes, facts, or both. As harsh as the truth may be, it still needs to be heard.
Ditto.
I can only be so patient when I'm silenced for "political correctness" everywhere I go... While even our money has references to a fictional deity.
A religious person on the other hand can tell us we're foolish/damned for not believing their hogwash, anywhere we are, public or private... So I think it's a small price to piss some people off by being blunt and arrogant!
Good on 'ya, and awesome beer in the pic!
Ehh... you can't win them all. Some of those t-shirts are pretty accurate portrayals of the vast differences between the atheist belief in no gods, and the beleifs of theists. Some use dark humor, sexually innuendo, irony... whatever, it's just words. And you know, the theists have their own t-shirts and what not touting their "moral superiority" and other such ideas. I guess what I'm getting at is that it doesn't matter really. Some people like to offend with their clothing. I think offensive language had the effect that once it's said, people need to immediately think about the message and the effects. Offense has its purpose in highlighting ideas and criticisms. As long as no one is getting so butt-hurt that they are trying to shank each other in an alley way, what's wrong with a little offense in an argumentative idea?
Considering that in many nations my fellow human beings face death for being atheist or not the right type of theist, I don't find the t-shirt designs unnecessarily harsh.
But I will create a questionnaire in the site support forum for members to vote on new t-shirt designs. All interested can make their case there.
As an atheist I'm not stuck up and I don't think I am better and smarter than everybody else, there are plenty of more intelligent atheist out there who could be what i consider better than me...
JK, there are some theist who fit the bill too.
Intelligence doesn't make someone better. There are lots of very intelligent asshols out there. You, Z, seem to be a very decent human being. In my book, that weighs a hellova lot more than mere intelligence.
From my personal point of view religious people would think me as an atheist stuck/arrogant because I don't need anyone to tell me what's right or wrong I try do to the best for people, treat them how I want to be treated etc. due to my own judgement and if I'm told I'll go to hell if I'm not saved falls on deaf ears, and speaking of hell I'm also arrogant because I'm not afraid of the devil as I don't believe in him either, and I read science books about how the world around me works not think god did it and worship him for it. as for the t-shirts I wouldn't wear one but I have quoted something like that when having a heated debate I regretted it abit afterwards
Hannah - “Offending will allow the fire to burn for longer which isn't what we want.”
In my experience, the fact that we exist, is offensive to many of them. While we exist, we will never be able to stop offending those people short of “staying in the closet”. I can understand why some atheist might choose to live in the closet. But luckily my living situation allows me the luxury of living “outside the closet”.
Additionally, many of us want to live in a world where non-believers are not second class citizens. I really don't think we can transform our current world into that world without intentionally offending them over and over again.
Im not inteligist (new word similar to racist lol) i know im smarter than everyone theist or atheist :)
I won't deliberately insult someone just because they believe something, but if they are being jerks, then they deserve to be offended, mocked, and publicly ridiculed. If we want to put an end to people using their religion as a sledgehammer to beat everyone into submission to their ideals, then we have to stop being afraid of offending them. They certainly have no problem offending us--or even each other, as we know from simple observation that the religious do not even like each other. That is why they are fractured into so many cults and denominations. There is no agreement among them, no love or tolerance between these divisions, and therefore they can't have any tolerance for those completely outside their religion. We are under no obligation to tiptoe around them, walking on eggshells, terrified of offending their delicate sensibilities when they view the rest of the world as evil outsiders to begin with. And in the end, it does no good, anyway, as they will still detest us for the simple act of not believing.
I agree with you 100%. The problem with speaking out against a theist, is that in 2 seconds you will be ganged up on by the rest of the people in your company. There will be NO ONE who will agree with your point of view, and you will be villified...you will be battling by yourself...it's not worth the aggravation...you are not going to change anyone's mindset.
Hannah--I totally, emphatically disagree with you. More than totally and emphatically I disagree with you with a 10 between 1-10 and 10 the most disagreeable. "Support intelligence sleep with an atheist" even Science flies you to the moon. Religion flies you into buildings... So fucking what.. Being disagreeable is good. Being disagreeable is fun. Challenging stupid thinking in almost all and any way is exciting. I like making fun of Christians. I don't care if I am disagreeable. If you believe stupid things I am going to call you a moron. It is an obligation for Atheists to come way out of the closet and get excited about what we know(there is no God). Hannah if you want to be kind and nice and calm and consoling, and peaceful, and discreet, and have good manners in your discussion with theists go right ahead. Not ME-NOT ME-I get angry at stupidity and ignorance and I challenge it with all the anger, passion, and energy I have. I like being disagreeable. It makes me very happy to insult stupidity. Besides "Support Intelligence-Sleep with an atheist is funny. Satire and humor is also a good way to embarrass "theists" with their ignorance. "Oh my do you think T-shirts are unnecessarily harsh"". Give me a fucking break!!!!! God Bless
Christopher Hitchens thinks religion should be mocked and derided, and I tend to agree to a point. Viciousness is unnecessary, but irony, humour and strong opinion are vital. I have no problem making fun of religious teachings, because they are a joke. If my jokes or my t-shirts offend a religious person, I don't really care. They've been offending my sensibilities for years, and in a country of free speech I refuse to worry any longer if I might offend a Christian, a Muslim or a Jew. Their religions are idiotic, their practices are archaic and their views are fundamentally dangerous. Their teachings are abusive to children, predatory on the poor, and antithetical to common sense and intellect. They should be opposed.
I'm an atheist, and I'm stuck up.
Fair call I'd say.
WD
"Does anyone else think that the t-shirts are a bit unnecessarily harsh?"
They are if they represent the atheist position.
The fact is that they don't, they are just making fun of theists own "unnecessarily harsh" claims like "love everybody like yourself"
You need to NOT be thinking to believe that is even possible.(=evil)
Thus:
"I think therefore I'm atheist"
Understand that where reason fails, mockery may have better results.
"What I'm trying to say is, we can't fight fire with fire."
Well mockery is pointing out the stupidity of such beliefs, it is not like we are actually trying to discriminate and removing human rights to people like gays.
We are just trying to help people by accelerating the process of enlightenment to every means possible.
Sometimes to trigger the willfully stupid to question things is to mock them about something they think they know.
If you try to reason with some people you will get nowhere, they cannot even acknowledge that they are divided, they still think all Christians are cool with god even if they aren't between themselves.
Pushing the right buttons is effective, did you ever try to see what they think about Jesus and realize that you won't find a christian that agrees with another one on some fundamental things.
So funny.
Yeah...notice how none of them ever talks about Christ not being born on Christmas... they are uncomfortable with that one!!
NO...It's a SHIRT...and the statements are TRUE!! Theists have no problem forcing their craziness on us...maybe they will leave us alone if we wear the shirts.
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