So, I've been wondering how some Atheists can be Conservatives. If you're a Conservative Atheist, hear me out before you go on a rant about how Atheism has nothing to do with politics.
Let's start out with a very easy subject: Separation of church and state. Modern Conservatism was built and founded on Ronald Reagan, or as Conservatives would say, emperor, chancellor, king, almighty, saint, demigod, Ronald Reagan. You know, the guy who started off his Presidency by trying to make prayer in public schools mandatory. The guy who would make a huge deal out of Christmas and the fact that it is a Christian holiday (it isn't). Ever since then, Republicans have always been (or pretended to be) evangelicals, and they have tried to break our first amendment right to separation of church and state.
But let's say you don't care about Republicans indoctrinating your children. What about Marriage equality? Republicans are clearly against gay marriage, and as Atheists, we know that Homosexuality is natural. The only reason they are against Gay marriage is that their precious book says it's a sin.
But let's say you don't care about Republicans indoctrinating your children and discrimination against homosexuals. What about Abortion? We clearly know that a fucking Zygote isn't a human being, so why would you be Anti-Choice? The only reason Republicans believe zygotes are fully developed human beings is that their precious book says so, not because there is any scientific evidence to back up their claim.
But let's say you don't care about Republicans indoctrinating your children, discrimination against homosexuals, and discrimination against Women. What about gun control? Why would you possibly be against banning assault weapons (not all guns) and universal background checks? We clearly know that these policies prevent deaths, so why be against it? Doesn't this help the case of Christians who claim that you're immoral?
But let's say you don't care about social issues and you are conservative on health care and economic issues. Why would you be in favor of the free market system that clearly isn't working, when there is an obvious way to fix this? Why would you support trickle-down economics, which never worked, lower minimum wages, more war, and military spending, etc?
But let's say you don't care about Republicans indoctrinating your children, discrimination against homosexuals and women, murder, and economic collapse. Why would you support these anti-Climate Change politicians who take money from oil companies? How can you vote for the people who are literally ending the world?
But let's say you don't care about Republicans indoctrinating your children, discrimination against homosexuals and women, murder, economic collapse, and the end of the world. Why? Why identify as Conservative if you're Liberal on most issues?
That's about all I have to say, let me know what your thoughts are down below.
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It's a great question. Conservatism (In the US at least) and it's adgenas are heavily influenced by religion. How is this acceptable for an athiest?
From a UK perspective, I think there is a culture in the USA (and in the UK too) where people don't carefully comprehend the loyal opposition positions and government party positions. A bigger problem though is the language and adversarial nature of politics in the USA. It is as if there is something wrong with a Rep becoming a Dem or vice versa, yet most of us see value in policies of both parties.
The Original Post is a good example of beginning a discussion with almost total misunderstanding of the Republican positions. Here are some examples that I think I observe:
“The only reason they are against Gay marriage is that their precious book says it's a sin.”
My understanding is that they have many objections and ‘it’s a sin’ is seldom one of them.
“We clearly know that a [] Zygote isn't a human being”
What is considered a human life is a matter of opinion.
“Why would you possibly be against banning assault weapons (not all guns) and universal background checks?”
Reps see thin ends of wedges everywhere. Republicans (not just Christian ones) have the mistaken idea that the only answer to a bad man with a gun, is a good one. They also have gun control muddled with the issues of freedom and personal protection.
“Why would you be in favor of the free market system that clearly isn't working, when there is an obvious way to fix this?”
I observe little agreement in the US on how to fix it. Reps don’t just think what they see as big government or (quite absurdly) even socialism as unnecessary and inefficient, they actually fear it.
“Why would you support these anti-Climate Change politicians who take money from oil companies?”
They say they think that climate science is some sort of organised money racket. Many deniers often cannot apparently tell climate change from weather change.
To solve any problem or disagreement, it is first necessary to understand it correctly.
"My understanding is that they have many objections and ‘it’s a sin’ is seldom one of them."
Well, you don't have much of an understanding. In the United States, the only reason people are against gay marriage is that of religion.
"What is considered a human life is a matter of opinion."
Well, I consider human life to be homo-sapiens who is conscious, has a brain, and can feel pain. If by human life you mean sperm, then it's completely amoral to get rid of some human life.
"Reps see thin ends of wedges everywhere. Republicans (not just Christian ones) have the mistaken idea that the only answer to a bad man with a gun, is a good one. They also have gun control muddled with the issues of freedom and personal protection."
"I observe little agreement in the US on how to fix it. Reps don’t just think what they see as big government or (quite absurdly) even socialism as unnecessary and inefficient, they actually fear it.""
"They say they think that climate science is some sort of organised money racket. Many deniers often cannot apparently tell climate change from weather change."
Exactly, and they're incredibly stupid for believing that. My point is that Atheists are supposed to be the ones who use critical thinking skills and common sense.
"In the United States, the only reason people are against gay marriage is that of religion."
Marriage is a contract, but it's primarily a religious contract designed to promote childbirth. It's had religious significance in many cultures around the world for thousands of years. Why the hell should atheists care about marriage (gay or otherwise) beyond whatever their personal life dictates?
Are you unaware of the legal / financial benefits (in the U.S.) provided to those entering into that contract?
Are you aware that those exact same legal/financial benefits can be made available through the courts because of the fact that it is also a legal contract?
That isn't accurate in the US. There are tax and insurance difference between civil unions and legal marriage at the very least.
It actually is accurate. Re-read what I wrote. Do you understand the difference between "can be" and "is/are"?
New Jersey, Illinois, Hawaii and Colorado, Rhode Island and Vermont all recognize civil unions or domestic partnerships as marriages with all the same rights and privileges. Other states have recognized civil unions and domestic partnerships with limited benefits since the mid 1980's and expanded those rights and privileges over time.
Clearly, marriage benefits CAN be legislated to people with civil unions and domestic partnerships in the U.S..
Just because the federal government does not currently recognize them, does not mean that Congress can't pass laws giving civil unions and domestic partnerships the exact same recognition, rights, and privileges as marriage. In point of fact, it is precisely the job of Congress to pass laws. The job of the courts is to make sure those laws are legally and Constitutionally correct. Additionally, anyone with legal standing can sue the federal government to have the law changed, create a legal precedent, and the courts will decide the matter whether Congress acts or not. That means that rights and privileges CAN be made available through the courts.
I highly recommend that you watch the videos "I'm Just A Bill" and "Three Ring Government" by Schoolhouse Rock if you still have questions.
More insults. Not a good sign.
Sorry, but not sorry... All of your comments to me so far appear to be designed to simply make me clarify things that a child should be able to understand. As long as you think that's a good way to have a discussion, I'm going to treat you like a child.
I think you should rephrase your question to "How can atheists be conservative in America?"
In other places there is an unholy alliance between the left and the churches, especially the Anglicans, Methodists, and Presbyterians. They collude with the Tax Man, egging politicians on to control more and more of our lives and spend more and more of our wealth on failed social policies. If you think free markets and trickle down have failed, you should see what widespread multi-generational welfare dependency can do. Either way you end up with an impoverished under-class. The only difference is in the composition of the elite. And by the way, markets aren't really free, and trickle down is filtered through endless layers of politicians, bureaucrats, and other parasites until all the drink is gone and nothing remains but a little bit of condensation on the outside of the glass.
You're right, I should change it. Bernie Sanders would be considered a centrist in Europe.
Can you provide a citation for your claim that the left and churches are allied in countries outside of America?
In answer to the OP question. Hey, there are dumb atheists!
There is a difference between a Republican and a conservative. Yes, in the USA the Republicans embraces some conservative values. But just because a person follows conservative beliefs more than leaning to the left, that does not guarantee they are Republicans.
Unfortunately in the USA the division is so severe you must be one or the other, and you must fully embrace all of the tenets of either side. But I do not play that game, I march to my own drummer. I am of the belief that every political philosophy has it's benefits and drawbacks. I just look for solutions. If it is offered by a liberal, fine. If it is offered by a conservative, fine. I don't care about the source, I care only about the solution to a problem.
Monarchy has it's good and bad points. So does Communism, Capitalism, Dictatorships, and even the now defunct German National Socialists.
Here's a little experiment. The next time you hear a politician talk about something, ignore what party they belong to. Instead,just check their track record on meeting campaign promises, and whether the solution they offer is actually worth considering.
Republicans embrace "some" conservative values? What Conservative values don't they embrace?
The Overton window is way to far to the right in the United States, we're probably the most right-wing developed nation.
Yes, I understand that there are good things that come with all policies, but you need to see if the good outweighs the bad. For example, having a low minimum wage helps the rich get richer, and gives them so much money that they can't even spend it. So yes, a few hundred thousand people will benefit, but tens of millions will have severe negative consequences.
And I don't support someone because they have a D or R next to their name, I look at where they stand on the issues, and how they have governed in the past.
1. Separation of Church and state: (Agree - It means small government. Being a Republican has nothing to do with Religion. The problem is that the Republican party caters to the religious to get votes. I am fully against Prayer in school I am fully against the Government legislating morality of any kind. That means I am pro prostitution, pro legalization of all drugs, pro abortion, etc...
2. Marriage Equality: The religious are idiots. Marriage has nothing to do with religion. Marriage is a government institutions. I am against all marriage. It should not be a factor at all. Given that it is... who in the hell cares who gets married. Marriage is a legal contract. If a Church marries you, you are still not married until you have that little certificate from the government. The government needs to butt out of marriage. Pro-all marriage if the government does not butt out. Fully against the concept of marriage in the hands of the government.
3. Pro abortion - to a point. I would implement a three strike and you are sterilized standard. People who are irresponsible should not be using abortion as birth control. It is the woman's body and she has a right to do with it as she wishes. And she has that right no matter what the man thinks. (Sorry guys, make a better choice for a mate. You should have talked it over before you got her pregnant.) However; if a woman is using abortion because she does not have the common sense to use birth control, I am pro stepping in and controlling her. It's just morally wrong to keep having abortions.
4. I am pro guns. All guns. The constitution of the US gives us the right to have arms and to use them to protect ourselves from the state. If the cops have assault rifles we should have them too., We are not the slaves of the state. The state works for us. The police in America are out of control contently and severe civil unrest is right around the corner. The militarization of the police should be stopped in its tracks. Civil forfeiture has gone crazy. Look what they have been doing in Tennessee in and in that small Alabama town that was in the news recently. Quotas for police and civil forfeiture are ruining the US. We need less government not more. We need guns to force the government out of our lives like they recently did to the Feds. in Texas! Bravo for Texas!!!
5. Health care and economy: Fk the Welfare state! The government needs to stop giving out free handouts. PERIOD! You want food - work for it. I fully agree with low interest loans to help people get jobs or even for education. I would require specific grade averages for loans. If you fall below you don't get another loan until the first one is paid back. It's simple. Welfare is what we have the damn churches for. We need to tax them and make sure they are giving the majority of their earnings to the poor like a good non-profit should be doing. These rich mega churches should never be happening.
6. The Free Market is the best Idea that has come along in eons. With that said, it has its problems. It is based on a model of eternal growth. Growth is not eternal. It also leads to monopolies, price fixing and other issues. Some control is necessary. Perhaps earning caps or size caps. I really don't know. But over regulation is not an answer. There was a time when a person could start up a business in America. Now the government has so many regulatory hoops to jump through that you have to be a major corporation just to open a hamburger restaurant. It's not the free market that is the problem, it is over regulation by the government.
7. If there was no money in the Climate change movement, it would not be an issue. It's all BS. It is a red haring. The real issue is that we have 7 Billion people on this planet. The population is out of control and we have no idea of how to reduce it because of Capitalism. Our economy, our social security, our medical care and everything else is all based on the very same expanding economy that has brought us to the very peak of success; success in business, technology, international trade, medicine, and even education. But this system must now adapt somehow. We really don't have the answers.
* My guess is that not everything I have said is expressed as well as it could have been. I'm teaching at a University and I am on break.. So I just wrote fairly quickly. Point is (YES IT IS POSSIBLE TO BE A CONSERVATIVE ATHEIST.) Take a look at this.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AINa22UR0S4
@ Cognostic
I have read all of your statements and I am complete in disagreement with your "government has no role" stance.
Your points my response
#1 I basically agree with as long as all those things you legalize are heavily regulated.
#2 I agree except I do believe in licensing by the government to assure a fair and equitable distribution of property upon separation.
#3 I am pro-abortion but completely and emphatically against your "3 strikes and you are out" stance.
#4 You are completely wrong about why and what the constitution allows as far as guns. No one needs a gun. The 2nd states that you can have a gun IF YOU ARE IN A WELL REGULATED MILITIA! Pro-gun nuts always leave that part out. It has nothing to do with protecting yourself from the state. You have done what every pro-gun nut has done which is mix up The Declaration with the Constitution.
#5 your rant is not only unrealistic, it is misleading. I have way too much to say about this rant of yours to try and state here.
#6 you are completely wrong on this issue as well. The problem isn't "over-regulation" it's lack of regulation and lack of enforcement of regulations!
I started my own business and there are as many hoops as you would have us believe. The obstacle that every new business faces are fighting the corporations that OWN republican legislators!
#7 You're wrong on this issue as well. Climate change is real!
I completely forgot to mention what you said about the second amendment applying to militias, excellent point!
1. Republicans *claim* to be in favor of small government, but almost all of them are lying. The "small" and "big" government argument is bullshit. Republicans LOVE big government when it's used to go into a women's uterus, go to war in other nations, and imprison someone for slightly altering their consciousness, and we hate big government when it comes to those issues. It all depends on the policy we're talking about. So you lean left when it comes to separation of church and state.
2. So you lean left on Gay marriage.
3. "It's just morally wrong to keep having abortions."
Are you sure you're an Atheist?
4. You understand the problem perfectly but have a horrible understanding of the solution. You don't fight the militarization of police by militarizing civilians... You just demilitarize the police. Arming civilians with machine guns is not what the founding fathers had in mind when they wrote the constitution.
Even if the government wanted to have a hostile takeover, your guns ain't gonna do shit. We have drones, the air force, and nukes now.
5. First of all, giving people lower taxes and a living wage isn't a "free handout". It's just paying people enough money to keep the lights on at night in return for their work.
Second of all, what is the downside of universal healthcare? Everyone is insured, prices are lower, and lines are shorter!
6. I guess it's time to give you a history lesson.
In the 1920's, we had extreme deregulation, and it caused the largest economic boom in American history. That may seem great, but guess what followed it? The largest depression in American history. Roosevelt took office, added more regulation, and as a result he fixed our economy. in he 80's, we were in a recession so Ronald Reagan tried Deregulation again. It caused GDP growth throughout the 80's, but in the early 90's, the economy was in a recession once again. Clinton came into office in 1993 and added more regulation, which fixed our economy. Then at the end of his term, he deregulated, and Bush deregulated even more, and we had the worse recession since the great depression. Obama came back into office, regulated more, and fixed the economy.
Deregulation NEVER worked.
7. Are you denying Climate Change, or not? You're right, renewable energy has many economic benefits.
And here in the U.S, we're going to have to deal with a decreasing population. In most developed countries, population is expected to start declining, although population will increase in developing countries.
I didn't know David Silverman was a Conservative, I lost all respect for him now.
Stereotypes only define a small section of any group.
To some people - I am a flaming liberal. To others, I am a staunch conservative.
So which am I?
Both/ neither.
I am in favor of gun and reproductive rights. I'm against the death penalty and feel it should be legal everywhere.
( some people do just need killing).
I' m in favor of freedom of religion and think those who believe are morons.
I' m human, capable of embracing opposing ideals, and I don't need a label stuck on me.
That's another good point. If the police were assaulting some religious fanatic on a street corner I would defend his right to be there and speak as long as he was not inciting people. Some of the preachers call women whores and such. Those idiots are inciting violence. Telling people they are evil and going to hell is also borderline hate speech. i say borderline because here in America we sort of expect that from the religious morons and we generally don't give it much attention.
Anyway, Religious freedom is my freedom as well. That is what separates the Atheists from the Christians. We get that they have the right to express themselves no matter how moronic they sound. If they had their way they would silence us all, teach their faith in the schools, and deal harshly with anyone who opposed them. As atheists, we hope intelligence will be able to deal effectively enough with ignorance that we just won't have to deal with it too often.
@Cognostic: "I would defend his right to be there and speak as long as he was not inciting people."
I'm concerned about these concepts of "incitement" and "hate speech." I can incite sheep to run away by yelling at them. I can incite wild dogs by waving a steak at them. But people are supposed to have free will and responsibility. People always have a choice, and they're responsible for what they do.
"Hate speech" can be defined to cover just about anything, including the mildest criticism of Islam. Of course, owners of private property can decide that they don't want certain words pronounced on their property and eject anyone who breaks that rule. But should there be similar rules for public spaces?
I'm so upset. I closed the page and lost my first reply: Okay,,, Here goes #2. I'll make it shorter.
1. No regulation at all. If you want to be a loser, have at it. The owners of testing should be on employers. An employee who shows up for work under the influence should be mandated to test by an employer. Insurance companies should not insure this individual in a work environment. It's simple. You want to hold down a job, don't go to work under the influence. This works for every range of employment. This is already the practice for professional careers.
2. Disagree with government involvement at all. No licencing. A civil contract that can be agreed upon for a union of 1 year, 3 years, 10 years or whatever. Marriages can still exist for those that want to make lifetime commitments. A civil contract is more logical. It can be renewed as the couple wish. (Government intervention can occur with children. Any child born of a civil contract must necessarily be the responsibility of both parents.)
3. Agree to Disagree. A person who can not control their own life and be responsible obviously needs intervention. Abortions are not a means of Birth control. We probably both agree that at no time should the Government pay for abortions. (I would stipulate that the government does pay for sterilization. BTW - female sterilization can be as simple as a mandated neuroplant or an IUD. These are reversible. )
4. Arming civilians with guns is exactly what the founding fathers had in mind. The Supreme Court of the United States has ruled that the right belongs to individuals,
The "Collective Approach" (Your Idea) is from 1939. It was struck down in District of Columbia Vs. Heller in 2008. The Supreme Court held that the "Second Amendment protects an individual right to possess a firearm unconnected with service in a militia, and to use that arm for traditionally lawful purposes, such as self-defense within the home."
he Supreme Court has revitalized the Second Amendment. The Court continued to strengthen the Second Amendment through the 2010 decision in McDonald v. City of Chicago (08-1521). McDonald challenged the constitutionally of the Chicago handgun ban.
Second Amendment protects us from tyrannical Governments Our bill of rights came basically from everything the British did to the American colonies. The rights stated in the Bill of rights were to prevent what the British had done to the Americans (then also British, their own citizens) from ever happening again. History has shown us time and time again that when the population is disarmed that the Government presiding over them takes complete control and tyranny reigns free.
If you think a hand full of patriots can not stand up to a tyrannical government, you have to explain why we are not having success in the Middle East.
5. Yes it is a free handout and all across America people are taking advantage of the system. Illegals come to America just so they can have a baby and collect welfare. Ghetto moms have another baby just so they can increase the amount of welfare they are receiving. Then there is the fraud. There is so much we can say about fraud that we could spend days talking about it.
6. We are not talking about the same regulations. I specifically discussed monopolies and start ups. I believe I also discussed earning caps for corporations. Some way to keep them from monopolizing and being in complete control of a market. Anyway, we agree that some regulation is necessary to prevent events like the Depression.
7. No one can deny climate change. The climate has always changed. Currently we are still not outside any normative global values. The question is how much are humans contributing. Certainly we could all eat less beef. Recycling does nothing at all to thwart climate change, that is a myth. Recycling is being done to save land fill space. We just don't know what else to do with all the garbage we make. Recycling only alters the kind of pollution we make.
Renewable energy is another basket of problems. All we are doing is shifting our use of oil products from the public to the private sector. All those wind machines are made with plastics and run because of oil.
"If you have roughly 700 days of sun in two years (which is optimistic, but it makes the math easy), 5 hours a day of good sunlight at the equivalent at which the panel is rated (this is seasonal, but it’s what we use in South Africa and it makes the math easy), then this 300W panel makes 700 * 5 * 300 = 1050kwh in that two years.
A barrel of oil has 5,729,000 BTU according to the second search engine result I just googled, which is 1680kwh (of raw energy). So you could say, with a lot of hand waving and generalisation, that it takes about two-thirds of a barrel of oil to make a PV panel."
https://www.quora.com/How-much-oil-does-it-take-to-make-a-solar-panel
There is no FREE ENERGY - It all costs and it all contributes to pollution.
Regarding Over Population: Does it matter that our rates are going down while the rest of the world is rising? For some strange reason we feel responsible for the rest of the world? We are the ones feeding them, giving them medical supplies, housing them, and inviting them into our country.
There are lots of problems in the world, we can both agree on that. Go ahead and respond if you like. You can have the last word.
Are you replying to @mykcob4 or me?
@Cognostic
1) No regulation? Are you nuts? All regulation is, is the fair oversight to make sure people don't abuse each other. If you leave everything up to corporations you have an oligarchy not a nation of laws.
2) Marriage is contract has everything to do with property. To do away with oversight of this process is just stupid!
3) Now you are just being a NAZI. Abortion is HEALTH CARE!
4) No that was NOT the intent of the founders! READ the Federalist Papers. The reason for the 2nd Amendment and the ONLY reason is that there is no provision in the Constitution for a standing army.
5) This is nothing but a racist rant on your part and has no basis in fact!
6) your concept here is hypocritical and unrealistic. Regulating business is the only way to prevent abuse, fraud, and monopolies. Teddy R. proved that years ago. Read HISTORY!
7) Everything you stated is wrong and simplistic. Recycling, wind energy, solar energy are all good solutions to pollution, far better than coal and oil use!
I have not run into atheists who are conservative, but I have only talked to a few in my life, other then here. I would say it is almost like someone who is gay and is a conservative. Why vote against your own self interests? People have been doing it for decades. Look at the current deranged lunatic we have for a president. I have talked to lot's of low income people who voted for him and still support him, even knowing that he is a racist, wants to kill medicare and medicaid, deport the dreamers and the muslims and the best one that always make me shake my head is just how many christians love him and say he is a man of god. Great family values.
All I can say is that while there might be some atheist that are conservative, I would have to assume that most would not be conservative if they held true to their non beliefs and knew just how the conservative base is made up of evangelical nuts and dumb church people who listen to their pastors lie about liberals, so they can go vote these creatons in!
TLB - if you vote - period - it's against your self interests.
The world isn't digital. On- off. Pro - con. Black - white. Conservative - liberal. Gay - straight. Us - them.
If it were such things would be simple.
Thankfully, it's not.
Any perception you have otherwise is colored by your own prejudices and conform to the stereotypes you believe in.
No politician you vote for really has your interests in mind. They may agree with you on a thing or two. Maybe not.
You have to trust the honesty of a politician to allow you to believe what that politician's agenda really is.
Good luck with that.
Wrong Cronus dead wrong.
It is one's own best interest to vote. It is cynical to believe that all politicians are corrupt and don't act in the interest of their constituents. But of course, you are conservative so you would think that all politicians are corrupt because the conservative ones are corrupt.
Ahhhhh... Stereotypes.
Can you also tell who is a criminal by the bumps on their head?
Such talent.
@ Cronus
What the fuck is that suppose to mean?!
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