It's ya boy back having another crisis

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Mikhael's picture
It's ya boy back having another crisis

Oh boy am I getting sick of this. Literally

Hey everyone, it's me. I've been doing good lately, calm and peaceful, but I've been talking with my older brother again, who's still in the church, and over the past couple weeks he's turned Mr. Apologist on me. I've told him I'm not into debates and I'm not interested but he's keeping it up. And what did he have to email me about last night but Fatima (we were raised Catholic and he still is) and it just triggered my anxiety so freaking bad since I'veready had a Fatima meltdown

And I shouldn't have read anything he said, I should have deleted it, but I have an anxiety disorder and obviously hate myself so I did, and it was a blog talking about the people like 18km away from Fatima who saw shit without even knowing what was going on. And of course I'm trying to use my logic brain about how people can lie and the weather is still localized and it's not a proof of this specific god blah blah blah, and surprisingly I'm doing well.

But thing is I was actually in the urgent clinic yesterday for arrhythmia and shortness of breath thabks to my FREAKIN anxiety so I just wanted to pop in here for a dose of rational support to calm my ass down.

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Cognostic's picture
For fuck sake! The day the

For fuck sake! The day the sun dances in the sky is the day you die. It's just that frigging simple.

You have a small group of people swearing that the sun and earth moved off their axes. You have many more people plus scientists monitoring the earth and the heavens that saw nothing at all.

MAGIC IS NOT AN ANSWER.

Mikhael's picture
Things get stickier when you

Things get stickier when you deal with modern Catholics imo. You have a religious group that sees themselves as enlightened and scientific, so of course the sun didn't ACTUALLY move, it was all an illusion to be seen by a few dontcha know.

Catholics k ow how to twist apologetics to work around so much shit, and I was so fucking good at worming back in my papist days

Idk man I need a vacation

Cognostic's picture
Catholics do not know how to

Catholics do not know how to twist apologetics. They use the same bullshit apologetics that everyone else uses. If they has some special ability, we would all be catholic. THEY DON'T!

CATHOLIC: Making you feel guilty about being alive for 2000 years.

Tin-Man's picture
Howdy, Mikhael. Good to see

Howdy, Mikhael. Good to see you again. And glad to hear you have been doing better up until this recent episode. Sounds like you have been making some progress overall, so don't let this little setback rattle you too much. Remember, "recovering" from long-term religious indoctrination is a process, not a one-time event. And that process varies widely for each individual. Some are able to get through it fairly easily and quickly, while others may have a more difficult and more lengthy recovery period. Personaly, for me it was getting past the threat of hell that caused the most problems. Once I finally cleared that hurdle, though, it was very easy for me to shake loose all the other nonsense, for I never really believed in most of the other stuff in the first place.

In your case, it would seem you have a strong disposition toward believing all the supposed "miracles" that are regularly used to bolster the beliefs of the faithful. (Just an observation.) You just have to keep reminding yourself that most all of the reported "miracles" throughout history are easily explained by scientific methods, psychology, and/or natural causes. The remainder can be chalked up to false/fabricated/faulty witness observations.

For instance, if I told you I saw a deer run through my back yard, it is likely you would not even question my claim nor require evidence for it. And even if I lied to you about that for some reason, you would likely just shrug your shoulders and shake your head and wonder why I would lie about such a mundane event. However, if I told you I saw a leprechaun riding a unicorn through my back yard pulling a cart full of gold behind it and claimed it was a miracle from God, I think (I would HOPE) your bullshit detectors would immediately start sounding alarms. And I further hope you would be DEMANDING some sort of evedence/proof of my claim, all the while being incredibly skeptical and doubtful. But what if my only "proof" to you was my saying, "I saw it with my own eyes. Why don't you believe me?" What would your response be? Think about that awhile.

Again, expect to stumble a bit along the way. Eventually you will learn to step over and avoid those annoying little foot catchers.

Mikhael's picture
I def need a fine tune to my

I def need a fine tune to my bull shit meter. I'm not necessarily too trusting but I'm good at looking at someone's arguments and feeling unable to validly counter them. I can sit here and say, well, maybe people 18km from Fatima still knew the story, maybe they only saw the weather bullshit. But I don't know and I don't feel smart enough or like I have enough knowledge to say for sure. I don't have much faith in my own intelligence or understanding of situations, which is a flaw to work on

Cognostic's picture
OH FOR FUCK SAKE _ The

OH FOR FUCK SAKE _ The people at Fatima did not know the story. Like the Gospels M,M,L, and J, the frigging religious fanatics just stuck all the shit people were saying together and called it a miracle. The reports were diverse and contradictory.

https://skeptoid.com/episodes/4110
"Joe Nickell reports that Lucia's own mother said that she was "Nothing but a fake who is leading half the world astray."

Friar Mario de Oliveira, who knew her well, described her as living in a "delirious world of infantile fantasies" and suffering from "religious hallucinations".

There are alternate explanations for the children's stories, imagination and boredom being chief among them."
----------

There is no corroboration on the number of people in attendance. The article points out a very simple fact. The people that did travel for hours and show up to witness the miracle were already well conditioned to witness such an event. They were already true believers.

Lucia wouldn't tell anyone what the secrets were until many years later, when she was a nun, and was asked to write them down by the Bishop of Leiria in 1941.

There is just so much wrong with this bullshit ...... read the article.

It was a rainy day but no one had umbrellas and the pictures we have are of a sunny day.

Mikhael's picture
I do want to apologize for

I do want to apologize for only coming in here to drop my anxiety. I have a vee deep and very real problem with anxiety and trauma, that I am seeking help for, but sometimes my flare ups can overall the resources I have to contain it.

God is still a very big fear for me. Damnation, hell. I'm queer, I'm polyamorous, I'm an artist who's inspiration is heresy and blesphemy. Pascal was wrong- I would have everything to lose to live my life according to Christianity.

When I was pagan, supernatural events or Christian miracles were nothing. It was just one god among thhrousands with a lot of fame. Doubting faith, I now had to fill those experiences with rationalism and education I don't yet have, and somehow, despite my view that either all gods exist or no gods do, my anxiety wants to fill all those gaps with jesus/yahweh. It was one step forward, 3 miles back in terms of my mental health.

It just. Baffles me. How some people can so easily explain and accept what troubles me. I look at somet ing like this and I obsess, I need to know the exact weather, the exact range, I need to understand the science and probability behind am the weather phenomina, I need to know of the other witnesses had been told of Fatima before. I need information that just isn't there, and I envy those who can just accept, be sure, and move on. This is indeed only one issue, but it's a slice of how my mind has been since I was 19

David Killens's picture
Hello MIkhael, glad to see

Hello MIkhael, glad to see you again.

From your posts, I am under the impression that when you hear a wild theistic tale, your first response is to believe it, and then attempt to disprove it. You are placing yourself under the burden of proof.

Of course it will not be easy, nor will it be quick, but I suggest you retrain your though process and priorities to what you know, but sometimes fail to follow.

Rule number 1. When someone makes a claim it is incumbent on them to prove their claim.

For this Fatima crap, your brother must prove his assertion and story. No gaps, no assumptions, he must prove every millimeter of his claim.

This is a rather sensitive area, but you need to set boundaries with your brother. If he does not respect your desire to avoid such theistic conversion attempts, then you either set and enforce boundaries, or you will always be plagued by his actions. Those consequences do not have to be extreme, but he must know that he stepped over the line, and you are enforcing sanctions. For example, inform him that you will not read any of his emails for the next month. As for you, the instant you realize he sent some theistic email, stop reading that instant, and trash the email, make it go away. Curiosity killed the cat, and your curiosity has led to severe anxiety.

Mikhael's picture
You are spot on, yeah. I

You are spot on, yeah. I definatelt still fall into that trap. I tend to think, however erroneously, that if someone is making a religious claim than it is because they have no rational or scientific explanation for it. I k ow this is bot the case and that people will praise gods for having just enough milk for their cookies, but it's how my thought process always starts. My brother talks to me about miracles and how people who had no idea that the miracle of Fatima was suppose to happen that day still seeing the sun dance from miles away and I think wow! Then slmethi g must have happened !

Do I realize those people could lie? Yes. Do I understand that the stories are embellished? Yup. Do I k ow the sun fries your eyes? You betcha. But my brain damage still tells me, it's god, it's THAT god in particular and you're going to hell.

Because you know, religious trauma is fun that way.

I'm trying to keep peace with my brother to keep peace for my grandmother right now. Really complicated family dynamics

Tin-Man's picture
@Mikhael Re: "I do want to

@Mikhael Re: "I do want to apologize for only coming in here to drop my anxiety."

...*clearing throat*... Ahem!.... *folding arms across chest*... *stern look of reprimand*.... Uh, just a quick little admonishment here with which I am confident many others here will agree: DO NOT apologize for coming here to to seek advice or vent frustrations or ask questions. Buddy, that is exactly why this site is here, and that is precisely why many of us hang around as much as we do. There are plenty of folks on here (myself included) who are very well acquainted with the stress and anxiety involved in breaking away from religious indoctrination. As such, we understand how difficult that process can be sometimes. If you are able to cope/manage on your own for most of time, then that is fantastic. However, whenever you get in a bind and are having a rough time sorting things out in your head, then THIS is the place you can come to and feel safe getting that shit out of your system in order to get you one step closer to freedom from all that anxiety. Granted, you may not always like some of the answers you get, but it is important to remember that the truth sometimes sucks. And it is not always pretty and kind. Furthermore, it is entirely up to you whether or not you want to accept what you are told. Everybody on here has his/her own individual story and experiences on how they became an atheist. Everybody on here has his/her own unique manner of explaining things. And, again, it is totally up to you on how you accept those words of advice. Bottom line, though, is that if you are genuinely and sincerely here to seek advice, vent, and/or learn, then I assure you there are those of here who genuinely want to help in any way we can. So, with that in mind, NO MORE APOLOGIES from you about showing up here seeking help. Capeesh?

Cognostic's picture
NO! If Pascal is wrong --

NO! If Pascal is wrong -- He has already convinced you to give up your sanity. He has convinced you to live your life in a shadow of fear. He has convinced you that the impossible is possible/ He has. in fact. caused you to be a weak minded mess who has wasted the only life available to you.

Mikhael's picture
Well, by saying he is wrong,

Well, by saying he is wrong, what I meant is, it's bullshit for him to say that if someone believes in his but is wrong, they loose nothing. That's wrong. They loose out on thebonly life they get by decotonf themselves to a god who isnt there. I mean to say, I spent too many years following that path and I'm still struggleing to break free, but want to

Tin-Man's picture
@Mikhael Re: Pascal's Wager

@Mikhael Re: Pascal's Wager

Believe me, I know how difficult it is to get away from that. I was living by the mindset of "Better to be safe than sorry" for most of my life. But I didn't know it actually had a name until after I joined the AR a couple of years ago and learned about Pascal's Wager. Up until joining the AR I was always in an annoying mental tug-of-war between my rationality and what I was raised to believe about god. It kept me in a near-constant state of indecision along with sporatic moments of mild depression. In other words, I was miserable.

Good news, though, is there is an easy way to escape that nonsense. And it is so simple and obvious that it is easily overlooked. It works great for me. Hopefully it can work for you. Look at it this way...

The Christian god we are discussing is supposedly ALL-KNOWING, right? Meaning it knows your thoughts and feelings even better than you do. Meaning if you are having doubts, but are deciding to pretend to believe just for the sake of playing it safe, then that god will know you are full of shit and not being sincere. Meaning you are up shit creek without a paddle. On the other hand, if that god is somehow fooled by your pretend faith, then that god is not worth giving the time of day, much less worshipping. With that in mind, even if that god was somehow proven to be real, I would have little choice but to believe in it. But I DO have every choice about whether or not I would worship it. And knowing what I know now, there is no way I would worship such an horrendous entity as depicted in the bible. Therefore, why waste my time and put myself through so much stress and indecision over such nonsense?

Bottom line is, if that god is truly as all-knowing and all-powerful as described, then it already knows what I think and how I feel about it. Moreover, it should easily be capable of doing whatever is necessary to convince me it is real. And if its image as described in the bible is a misrepresentation, then it should also be fully capable of changing that. Since it has not done so over the course of several thousand years, I can only conclude...

A. That god approves of the bible's depiction, or...

B. That god does not approve, but chooses to make no effort to change it, or...

C. That god does not approve, but is unable to change it, or...

D. That god is simply a concept generated from the imaginations of ancient people who had no concept of modern sciene/technology and needed something to fill the gaps in their lack of knowledge relating to natural events.

Either way, I refuse to waste my time and energy worrying myself about a god that is either maliciously vile and sadistic and/or incompetent and/or simply does not exist. Hope this helps.

Tin-Man's picture
@Mikhael

@Mikhael

Just a quick little addition to Pascal's Wager. Why are you not worried/concerned/stressed about what Thor, Odin, Apollo, Zeus, or any of the other thousands of gods might do to you for not believing in or worshipping them?

Mikhael's picture
Heres whats hilarious about

Heres whats hilarious about that. I hse to believe in all of them, but in no specofic afterlife. I believed every god and religion was an interpretation of spirit, and death was simply the release of energy. I didn't fear anything because most of us don't believe in salvation

Then somehow after deciding I didn't believe in any god, only then did my terror of THAT god come back?? Because that's logical. Why can't I just go back to being a pantheist if my brain wants to believe in magic ??

toto974's picture
@Mikhael

@Mikhael

I do want to apologize for only coming in here to drop my anxiety. I have a vee deep and very real problem with anxiety and trauma, that I am seeking help for, but sometimes my flare ups can overall the resources I have to contain it.

There are no problems or shame to share your problems here, we can help you a little, be that may. It is better to get this out of yourself. Keep seeking help with a professional to heal you.

David Killens's picture
I wish to repeat, that your

I wish to repeat, that your problems are our problems and we are here to help you as much as possibile during you difficult transition process.

The only dumb question is the one not asked.

Mikhael's picture
Hey y'all, thabks for your

Hey y'all, thabks for your remarks and support. I'm really appreciative of you guys. I'm just going throuf a lot of stress and change right now and it's manifesting hardcore in religious pain right now.

Maybe I'm not totally atheist right now but I'm trying to love by logic and reason to wherever that takes me. I know I'm a very obsessive person; Tin Man, I'm sure you can relate, I know you speak of your own past issues often. And you're very helpful with your dissection of the reality of God's image problem. Namely. That he fucking sucks.

I'm tr ing to lay down for a rest now because I'm sending myself into a tizzy. Like. Heart palpatation freak out and I'm not loving it. Trying to logic my way out of Catholic apologetics is like trying to hold onto a squirming animal. My brain feels at peace and then it finds a new angle. Like at one moment I am assured by the fact that not everyone at Fatima saw anything. Then it panics me that not everyone saw something because if it was a weather phenomena then surely everyone WOULD. And thats a rich stancw for me to take since my blind ass can't see shit even if it's pointed out to me and I'm sure a lot of poor sheep farmers in 1917 didn't have 20/20 either. Just tonight my sister pointed out a rainbow spot in the sky and it took me 5 damn minutes to see it!

Religion is just. Severely decreasing my quality of life. This is just the article of it my brain has latched on to right now. Again. ._. And i know to those who have passed this is can seem frustrating to see someone clinging to what seems so illogical to you, but it's such an absolutely real fear for me

Cognostic's picture
What if you simply came to

What if you simply came to the realization that the religious way of thinking is something you used to do? I am as good at talking theist bullshit as anyone on the site. My mind is completely capable of engaging in and understating the theist perspective and their dishonest ways of supporting their positions. There is absolutely nothing a theist has ever said that has not clearly been debunked or found to be utterly and completely useless when it comes to arguing for the existence of a god..

So when do you get to that point where you are emotionally detached from all that shit you once believed. For me, it is as easy as putting on a pair of sunglasses. If you put on a pair of yellow shaded sunglasses, everything in the world has a yellow tone to it. If you put on a pair of green sunglasses, everything in the world has a green tone to it. You are simply looking at the world through a pair of God colored sunglasses and you can not figure out how to set them down. Then once you manage to slide them off your nose for a bit, you can not figure out what to replace them with. "ATHEISM IS NOT A REPLACEMENT." Atheism means putting the glasses down and using your own eyes. Atheists do not see the world through a dogmatic belief system. We may still be influenced by culture and the world around us, but we learn how to set those beliefs down as well. Atheism is about taking off the sunglasses and simply setting them aside. It's all about clearly seeing religious claims for what they are; they are nothing more than a way of coloring the world around you. Ideally, you should be able to take the glasses on and off at will. Then, having the ability to see the world in multiple ways, the question you ask yourself is "Which way is real and how do I know?" One way has facts, evidence, predictability, and repeat-ability. The other way has, myth, threats, fantastic unsubstantiated stories, false promises, magical thinking, and woo-woo. Immersing yourself in either world has real consequences. Choosing to wear yellow or green sunglasses or choosing to simply see things as they are is always a choice. You make the choice when you are able to set down all the sunglasses and begin to test the things you see for facts that directly effect the world around you, reliability, repeat-ability, predictability, consistency, and measurably. All you have to do is reach up and remove the glasses from your eyes.

Mikhael's picture
I want to work towards this,

I want to work towards this, and I feel like for a long time i had this. Things just slid off me, it didn't upset me or worry me. I just didn't think about it. I honestly don't know what happened to change that. Thib s have been so good for me. It's just so terrifying to think how if I believe again, my life is over. I don't know if I know what the world still looks like without glasses on. I dont know how to jyst acxept the "i dont knows " and the "I can't explain it but I know it's not God ". I need to learn that and practice that.

Old man shouts at clouds's picture
@ Cog Nice analogy there....

@ Cog

Nice analogy there....

Cognostic's picture
Accept the "I don't knows."

Accept the "I don't knows." What a great way to look at it. Just replace the words "God, spirit, angel, mystical, miracle, or any other inane religious word or concept with the phrase, "I don't know." The simple fact of the matter is this; if any or all of these concepts were challenged, eventually the theist would have to admit, "I don't know." Then they would go one step further. "Because I don't know, I have to use faith." We all know faith is not a path to truth. There is no concept or belief in this world that I can not convince myself is true based on faith. Faith, like the rest of the words, simply means, "I don't know."

Mikhael's picture
You make a good point with

You make a good point with that cog. That even theists have to fall back on i don't know. I just need to learn how to be ok with that when I came from a religion of, you can know and you are OBLIGATED to know.

The thing is I know I'm not dumb. I'm sharp enough, but I make myself be a theologian, a historian, a philosopher, a meteorologist and so ghost when it comes to searching out this shit, and it's killing me. I mean that kinda literally. My heart has been pounding and skipping for about 3 hours because of panic reading accounts on Fatima. I want to learn to calm myself and be ok with, I don't know but it's probably not a god

Tin-Man's picture
@Mikhael Re: "My heart has

@Mikhael Re: "My heart has been pounding and skipping for about 3 hours because of panic reading accounts on Fatima..."

A guy walks in to the doctor's office. The doctor asks the guy, "What is your problem today?" The guy looks at the doc and says, "Doc, I'm not sure what's wrong, but I seem to get a terribly sharp pain in my eye when I do this...", at which time the guy jabs his index finger forcibly into his right eye. The guy naturally yells, "OW!", and then asks the doc, "See? What can I do about the pain in my eye?" The doc looks at the guy and tells him, "Stop jabbing your finger into your eye."

Mikhael's picture
I need you to know I read all

I need you to know I read all tour posts, I cmudinf this one, with the background noise of rusty metal moving and it honestly helps brighten my day up a wee bit

Tin-Man's picture
@Mikhael Re: "...with the

@Mikhael Re: "...with the background noise of rusty metal moving..."

Aw, damn. My apologies for that. I totally forgot to oil my fingers before sitting down at the computer this evening.

Cognostic's picture
@Tin: A guy walks into a

@Tin: A guy walks into a doctor's office. The doctor asks him, "What seems to be the problem?" The guy looks worried and says "Doc, I don't know. For some reason I seem to be hurting all over." He pushes on the back of his hand and yells "ouch." He presses on his cheek and shouts "ouch." He touches his knee and yells "ouch." He touches his him and shouts "Ouch." "See doc! I am in serious pain."

"Yes, I see." Says the doc.

"Well, what's the matter with me?"

"Your finger is broken."

Cognostic's picture
A man walks into a doctor's

A man walks into a doctor's office.
The doctor pulls him into the examination room and asks, what seems to be the problem?
The man tells the doctor "I'm just not feeling right."
The doctor does an examination. He finds bits of carrots shoved up one of the man's nostrils and potato up the other one. He finds a chicken bone in the man's right ear and something that looks like ground beef with salsa in the left ear. The doctor has him drop his pants and find mushroom chunks on the mans backside. The doctor scratches his chin and looks at the man contemplatively.

"So what's do you think is wrong with me?" asks the man.

"Obviously," says the doctor, "your not eating right."

Mikhael's picture
Yeah yeah I get y'all, I see

Yeah yeah I get y'all, I see it xD I know I make my own problems here but I'm trying ! XD

Mikhael's picture
So I got a full nights sleep,

So I got a full nights sleep, and I don't work today, so the rest is helpful, I'm feeling a little better. My thoughts are still a bit racing and scrambled but I'm not like, short of breath and feeling dizzy or anything so that's a plus.

I'm trying to remember that I can't hold myself yo the standards of others. I can't be an expert in every field and be able to debunk everything. I need to learn to trust that there are people who make shit like debunking their whole career and that they have half an idea what they're doing. A 29 year old doodler with a high school degree probably isn't gonna be able to match their level of devotion and deduction.

Of course at the same time I feel the same way over blogs and responses set up by believers. I just always feel like others are so much better at working these things out. I still can't shake the assertion I read, refuting a skeptic, asking, if Fatima wad a sundog or halo or other natural weather glitch, (which explains how people far away saw it) how come not everyone saw it? It was a physical thing there in the sky to see. I know there is a rational explanarion, and I know other people seem to understand what that is and can throw it away, I just don't understand what could explain people in multiple places seeing something in the sky but not others. Poor eyesite? Confusion? Not looking in the same place?

I guess I just get frustrated when I see really good debunking of things that give other people a very satisfying answer and then I'm still like BUT WHAT ABOUT-

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