Another Question for Theists
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@Nyarlathotep,
"Reserving the ability to switch between literal and metaphor allows the reader to make any text mean anything they want. Which makes the text useless, imo." Except, in Islam there are various ways of verifying if the metaphor is being used correctly. There is a whole method in Islam to verify what is true and what is not. What makes sense in the big picture of the message or not. People should not reserve that ability although, there are some that will twist it any way they want without verifying their interpretation and then taking that little bit of info and brainwashing others that do not know any better. While your opinion might be valid for those people, it is not valid when it comes to true scholars that know how to applies method of verification. But then again, it is your opinion so you can have any opinion you want but, does not mean it is valid in the case of Quran interpretation
@ SfT
There's a whole methodology in the various sects of Christianity, just as there is in the fragmentations of Muslim orthodoxy that "determine the way to read the texts" ( Theologists words) and " to verify what is true and what is not." (Your words). The only problem with that is the interpretations vary sect to sect and cult to cult in both the Muslim and Christian world according to circumstance and the body politic.
The unreliability of the decisions handed down by clergy, religious courts and 'inspired by god' leaders is the main thing that promotes discord and inter sect mayhem as we witness right now throughout the Middle East. You, SfT, are following an imperative you find suits you, and you condemn those that interpret the same words in the same text differently to justify their behaviour. You do not apply the same tests and rationale to your behaviour and texts because " we used the right method to ascertain the truth" .i.e you took an another authority to justify your position.Yet you have no proofs, any more than than the competing interpretation for the "proof" of your belief.
That is the chasm you seek to overcome on these forums, and, fail with certainty. We here call bullshit on all the competing "interpretations" of the unsullied "divine word" or "god inspired gospels" and ask ; "why should we believe the Sunni (RCC) way. when the Shia (Baptists) or the Sufi (Pentecostals) say this?"
All of you apologists come up with the "divine word, unchanged and unchanging", the "our interpretations of the text are the correct ones because" and all you amateur religious stand back, and damn with faint fervour the excesses and brutalities of those that take your books and texts literally when dealing with those of other faiths. You only bleat when it comes home to roost in your own communities, or ensnares your children. But then all you Christian and Muslim alike fund those areas and clergy where extremism and terror breeds.
That is why I described your exact feelings in a previous post, I have read and discussed the Qu'ran and the Hadith, both accepted and non accepted with learned muslims of most stripes and I call "nonsense" on all your houses as I do on the Christians. That is your Cognitive Disorder SfT and that is what will turn you into a fundamentalist or an apostate. Your feet are treading both paths at the moment, but cannot continue to do so for too long.
You arguments in this forum become more irrational when you continually use the "No True Scotsman" fallacy in the face of real and evidenced religious practices that go uncondemned by those very authorities that you claim support your vision of a peaceful and just Islam.
You see that yawning gap between your personal supposition and actual reality? There is your problem. Religion's problem and that which will ultimately destroy you SfT, that is the truth.
(Edited for punctuation and clarity)
Bullshit.
And I agree with Nyarlathotep. If ain't following the Scientific Method, it is 100% pure bullshit. There is no religion that has a "checks and balances" system like the Scientific Method and Peer Review.
The only ways of verifying anything in any religion is to Cherry-Pick until you find only those verses which SEEM to be corroborative of each other. When in fact, they really ain't.
It may have been you, but someone else said to get the context of any verse in the Qu'ran, you must also read the verse before and the verse after the verse in question. The only problem with doing this, and it never fails, is that it makes an even larger pile of bullshit.
rmf
"Except, in Islam there are various ways of verifying if the metaphor is being used correctly. "
No there aren't, theists are just delusionally biased, and so won't ever accept reality if it contradicts those beliefs, even when their religious texts specifically and unequivocally state it.
"There is a whole method in Islam to verify what is true and what is not."
No there is not, we do however have very specific methods for objectively validating claims, like science and logic, and compared to the ravings of superstitious iron age Bedouins it's not remotely a contest. For example the claim someone flew to heaven on a flying horse is a no brainer. As is the risible idea that humans survive their own physical death in any meaningful way.
"there are some that will twist it any way they want without verifying their interpretation and then taking that little bit of info and brainwashing others that do not know any better."
This basically applies to all religions, and the sheeple that have been brainwashed into believing them.
" you can have any opinion you want but, does not mean it is valid in the case of Quran interpretation"
If only you could take off the brainwashed blinkers of your beliefs and see the irony, that sentence is truly fucking hilarious.
" Except, in Islam there are various ways of verifying if the metaphor is being used correctly."
No there aren't, Hitchens's razor applied.
The claim an omniscient deity is unable to communicate clearly, or that a perfectly merciful deity would use metaphor, is truly one of the most irrational and imbecilic claims theists make. It's a desperate excuse to ignore the barbaric , erroneous, and amoral claims in their religious books.
Disregarding Seeker obviously not reading the provided link, or blatantly lying said principles doesn't apply to Islam, when they oh so obviously do. Let's just leave that one contradiction at that.
"People should not reserve that ability" and "true scholars that know how to applies... blah blah..."
Now then, tell me what exactly is a true scholar? I'm pretty sure they are just the same as any other Human.
As for your reply, simple. Since you fail to read and only take other peoples writing out of context (something you blame others of doing, hrmmm... All's fair then) I'll only address this much:
Castration would be a great way imo. And yes, the three Abrahamic religions are the same. Your failure to see the common aspects (or not reading other holy books) is in no way a blunder on my part. They lie, they indoctrinate, they get used as weapons of mass destruction. They are the same.
And you missed the main point. Religion is the ONLY weapon, whose core function relies on it being used AGAINST the ones who actually wield it. No other weapon in human history does that.
Now that is an outstanding post, well reasoned & rational, and eloquently constructed. He'll ignore it of course, but well said.
@Muashkis,
"Now then, tell me what exactly is a true scholar? I'm pretty sure they are just the same as any other Human."
Yes, they are both human. But saying a scholar is the same as any other human in regards to their knowledge of a particular subject is like saying a little kid is the same as Galileo or Hawking.I am going to give you the benefit of the doubt and assume you know what a scholar in any fields requires of a person. The same amount of time, dedication and education is needed for a religious scholar as well. You don't just wake up and call yourself a scholar.
"Castration would be a great way imo." While i do not wish any harm upon anyone, let me know how you feel after you or a loved one gets raped or, just go ask victims or look up cases. That's safer
" And yes, the three Abrahamic religions are the same." Yet, you still did not read all 3 and still make this claim.
"Your failure to see the common aspects (or not reading other holy books) is in no way a blunder on my part. They lie, they indoctrinate, they get used as weapons of mass destruction. They are the same." Actually, in a different thread i kind of summarized how i became Muslim and why, and prior to doing so i read up, researched and even went to the worship place of all 3 and spoke to their leaders. If you really want, you can look up my history and find it. I honestly forgot where i posted it. I, unlike you, actually read all 3 books in detail and understand them very well while i won’t say i am a scholar of course, i do know the major difference as well as the similarities between all 3. I also looked up Atheism i detail in addition to the 3.
"And you missed the main point. Religion is the ONLY weapon, whose core function relies on it being used AGAINST the ones who actually wield it. No other weapon in human history does that." Another statement you can not qualify and is highly inaccurate.
"saying a scholar is the same as any other human in regards to their knowledge of a particular subject is like saying a little kid is the same as Galileo or Hawking."
No it isn't, citing someone as a scholar doesn't make their claims objective facts, hence the need for a scientific consensus as part of the process that validates the genius of people like Hawking. What you did was use an appeal to authority fallacy. The word scholar when referring to religious texts doesn't validate subjective opinions about supernatural claims, or about their subjective interpretation of texts that often state plainly something they want to deny. Science in stark contrast must be supported by objective empirical evidence. Muslim apologists often make this asinine claim. A "scholar" on the Harry potter books could claim wizards and magic are real, but even if their scholarly credentials on the books were an objective fact, it wouldn't validate their claim, as you are trying to pretend scholars on the Koran can do here. All Koranic claims for anything supernatural are no more than superstitious flimflam, no matter who claims otherwise, unless they can objectively evidence their claims, and being a scholar on the book does not make their claims about true unless those claims can be corroborated with sufficient objective evidence, as is the case with validated scientific facts, and this applies equally to geniuses like Newton and some Billy no name we've never heard of. Newton also held beliefs that he could demonstrate no objective evidence for, science doesn't use his genius to claim these are true, it acknowledges his genius because his theories of gravity have been objectively validated.
Breezy has the same problem comprehending the scientific methods of validation. .
I already stated my elder sis got raped. Learn some reading comprehension and memorization.
Also: https://www.quora.com/Which-religion-is-responsible-for-the-greatest-num...
The death toll speaks for itself. Weapon of Mass Destruction, activated only by being used on it's own wielders. Religious people don't just up and kill others, they get persuaded by their religious leaders.
Prove that the Human Being tasked with interpretation is in no way or another affected by Bias of outside pressure from extremists.
Prove that Quran is any less false than other scriptures.
Prove my necessity to be educated to criticize obvious logical fallacies.
PS: I think I'm starting to get the hang of it
@Muashkis,
Sorry about your older sister, i missed that point. You can handpick any cites you want to prove what you are trying to say does not mean its true.
"Prove that Quran is any less false than other scriptures" I already have and convinced the main person that matters, myself. If you really want answers there are a plethora of videos of lectures and debates you can watch if you don't want to read.
"Prove my necessity to be educated to criticize obvious logical fallacies." In Arabic there is a saying that roughly translates to "What do donkeys know about making cookies?" While I am certainly not calling you a donkey, it basically means how can you explain something to someone when they have 0 understanding of that which you are talking about. The problem with people today is they think everything can be explained or understood in 5 minutes. Well, sorry, Islam can not be explained nor understood in 5 minutes. If anyone wants to truly understand it they actually need to put in the time and effort, if they don't, they will just keep going based off the first google result that comes up and completely misunderstanding the whole thing. Islam has a full a rich history that needs deep understanding, unlike Atheism which is nothing but, emptiness. The more i talk to atheists the more i realize why they find it so easy, its empty and meaningless and takes 2 minutes to fully understand and become an expert of believing in nothing
@Searching for truth
You say that atheism is based on nothing but emptiness.
Even if that were true, that would be better that basing something on torture (the greatest evil), as Islam does. You don't need two minutes to know that an ideology is fundamentally wrong when it promotes the continuous torture of its opponents through the repeated burning of skin, as Islam does. Torture is never justifiable.
"The more i talk to atheists the more i realize why they find it so easy, its empty and meaningless and takes 2 minutes to fully understand and become an expert of believing in nothing"
All that shows is that you are as ignorant as you are illiterate. You could Google atheism in ten seconds and know your claim is moronic nonsense, so it is clearly you who prefers to know nothing, in order to keep believing vapid superstitious fairy tales.
"You can handpick any cites you want to prove what you are trying to say does not mean its true."
Sites ffs, and yes anyone can, this fact doesn't make them false either, sadly religious people seem to want to ignore what validates claims.
Richard Feynman. The first principle is that you must not fool yourself – and you are the easiest person to fool.
If you expect me to waste my time to bother studying Quran, first prove it's credibility. If you claim it's truth without evidence, I retain the right to dismiss it with cold hard facts.
1) The mere existence of this holy scripture has contributed to millions of deaths. Fact
2) Quran is the tool used by extremists to persuade people into committing atrocities. Fact
3) Quran follows the same principle of one true god and his divine mandate, given to us through his prophets, as other religions. Fact
4) Quran, as you describe it, relies on interpretation by humans, who can be influenced, biased, scheming... (put your favorite ugly human trait here) Fact
5) Quran depicts supernatural events, not supported by the observable reality. Fact
Now what on earth kind of evidence do you bring that would make all these facts irrelevant? What sort of evidence do you have to convince me reading any more of Quran is even relevant to reject it's credibility?
The only thing I expect to find there after reading the whole Bullshit, is more contradictions, logical fallacies, supernatural claims and other nonsense that would disprove the book by itself. Same as any other holy scripture.
@Muashkis
Yep. You are definitely getting the hang of this. Bravo!...*clap-clap-clap-clap-clap*....
All these claims yet you haven't even read it. That's all I have to say
But I have. Quite a few times. Boiling it down, this is the Qu'ran and the religion it teaches:
You shall live in peace, joy, and brotherhood, but only with those of like mind (beliefs). All others are to be put to the sword (killed).
And yet, even you Islamics still cannot live in complete peace, joy, and brotherhood with each other. Even you have divisive sects.
All you have been doing ever since you have been posting on these forums is dodging the truth. You refuse to accept arguments put forth to your faith by saying they inconsequential. You turn the argument around by saying your interpretation is the ONLY true interpretation. Yet, you can NEVER prove your interpretation as correct. You just say it is correct.
You, sir, are an Absolutist Apologist. The worst of the brood.
rmfr
@arakish
Me? An apologists? Lol thanks for proving you don't know what that means.
And I have answered almost all questions that actually have a basis on which that question was asked. I chose to ignore all the fabricated bs that has already been addressed and debunked 100s of times before. I chose not to waste time with those questions. Oh, and you (and others) choosing not to accept my answers is not my problem. I have asked more than once for anyone to actually bring something substantial against islam without taking words/verses out of context, present it in its entirety and then let's discuss. But, in return it's he same bs brought forward again and again, which is always the first result or 2 found on google. Once anyone actually takes the time to present something of substance and worth talking about, then I'll address it in detail but, till then I'll just keep ignoring and not wasting my time with the same old false claims over and over. Just look at what I asked Sapporo and look at her reply.
@Searching for truth
I do have a simple question for you.
Do you believe that all of the Koran was divinely inspired and is perfect?
@Searching for truth:
I do not know what an apologist is? And I have been dealing with them for 50+ years? Well, let's see if I can come up with a definition from this, as you put it, pathetically puny mind of mine.
An apologist is a person who practices apologetics which is the assumption of presupposed conclusions that have nothing to do with reason and rationality and actual information, creating irrational excuses and whatever conflicting ideas justifying your baseless assumptions regardless of what the true facts are, using beguiling diatectical semanitcs, distorted and perverted data, emotional whiney-ass pleas, due to an indoctrination conditioning that is so ingrained you never question the veracity of the nonsense offered or why they need to defend their faith at all.
OI! Vay! Tin-Man, I think I may need that mechanic of yours. I'd swear I threw a few gears coming up with that one. And I am a TREE! Damn!
Why do the intelligent geniuses have to ask us idiots to define a term? Damn! I think I also wrenched a couple of branches also.
***rumble --- scrape --- rumble --- scrape... as a tree slowly limps off***
rmfr
@Arakish
Not really sure you would want to use my mechanic. The guy has only artificial plants in his shop, and even THOSE don't look too healthy. I could recommend a good botanist, though.
@Sft
"...which is always the first result or 2 found on google."
And this is the proof needed to show you are an apologist. And not just any apologist, but a dishonest one as well. Just like ALL Absolutists.
I have never copied and pasted anything from google or any google search. Please show where I have, excepting the few times others have asked for something and I offered a google search result for them. Reiteration: I have never copied and pasted anything from google or a google search. Prove me wrong.
You, kind sir, are an Apologist, the worst breed of the Absolutists, and you are an Absolutists. Dishonest, spewing false accusations, spouting innuendoes. You, sir have a very serious illness which is common amongst Absolutists: Alvi Deiectiones Ositus.
rmfr
I haven't read Harry Potter, that doesn't validate wizardry though. Why do religious apologists not see how stupid that claim is? How many theists can claim to be experts every single religion that every human society has created? None of course, most of them have been brainwashed into believing what they were fed as a child, and have no critical thinking abilities of their own as a result. It's pretty sad but no less true for all that.
@ Searching For Truth: "Islam has a full a rich history that needs deep understanding,"
I GIVE YOU THE HISTORY OF ISLAM: In five minutes.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=o0m9nEafBE4
Not difficult to understand at all. You ever wonder where Hitler got the idea of tagging Jews with a yellow star?
@Cog Re: Vid link
Holy cow.... After watching that video, I am now even MORE baffled as to how any self-respecting, semi-intelligent, conscientious individual could ever even remotely want to believe in/follow a religion like that. Now I am very interested in sitting back and watching how that vid will be explained away and/or rationalized by certain you-know-whos around here. Hmmmm.... Time for popcorn... *wanders off to kitchen*...
Re: Video of History of Islam in five minutes
Aha! Got it! I just figured it out! I should win a prize for this! I know how to explain away and justify and rationalize all the violence involved in the beginning of the Islamic religion! And it is SO SIMPLE! It is right there in plain sight. In a nutshell, the only reasonable and rational explanation for all the war and violence is because...... *drum rolllllllll*........
The founder of Islam was not a true and faithful follower of the real Islamic teachings. He simply took too many passages out of context and took too many of the metaphors too literally and followed the wrong path. BINGO! There it is!.....*patting self on the back*.... He simply was not a good example for the Islamic faith.
TIN MAN!!! Tighten that screw in the back of your neck. The one that keeps your brain from rattling around. And for God's sake, quit patting yourself on the back, you are going to knock something loose before it gets tightened.
It's always nice to be reminded of previously researched history. That vid is possibly the single best summary so far.
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