Are religious claims about afterlife and rebirth falsifiable?

31 posts / 0 new
Last post
svhyd's picture
Are religious claims about afterlife and rebirth falsifiable?

Here's an example from a Hindu scripture called The Brihadaranyaka Upanishad:

Section X - The Path of the Departing Soul

Verse 5.10.1:

1. When a man departs from this world, he reaches the air, which makes an opening there for him like the hole of a chariot-wheel. He goes upwards through that and reaches the sun, who makes an opening there for him like the hole of a tabor. He goes upwards through that and reaches the moon, who makes an opening there for him like the hole of a drum. He goes upwards through that and reaches a world free from grief and from cold. He lives there for eternal years.

For what reasons is this claim falsifiable or non-falsifiable?

If this is non-falsifiable because of its metaphysical nature then are most claims that deal with karma, rebirth and afterlife (heaven, hell, etc.) also non-falsifiable?

EDIT:

While researching this I found something called Eschatological Verification according to which "a proposition can be verified after death" -- does this mean these 'after death' claims become falsifiable only after death for the person trying to falsify the claim? And for the living, the claim is non-falsifiable?

Attachments

No

Subscription Note: 

Choosing to subscribe to this topic will automatically register you for email notifications for comments and updates on this thread.

Email notifications will be sent out daily by default unless specified otherwise on your account which you can edit by going to your userpage here and clicking on the subscriptions tab.

arakish's picture
SV: "If this is non

SV: "If this is non-falsifiable because of its metaphysical nature then are most claims that deal with karma, rebirth and afterlife (heaven, hell, etc.) also non-falsifiable?"

Yes.

rmfr

svhyd's picture
OK, check my edit about

OK, check my edit about Eschatological Verification. How do you counter "can only be verified after death"?

arakish's picture
@ SV

@ SV

Has anyone come back to provide objective hard empirical evidence?

Onus probandi incumbit ei qui dicit, non ei qui negat.

rmfr

svhyd's picture
@arakish

@arakish

No, but what has burden of proof go to do with falsifiability? If the claimant places a condition on falsifiability like 'you need to die before you can falsify' - is this condition in itself enough to reject the claim as non-falsifiable because falsifiability only applies to the living?

arakish's picture
@ SV

@ SV

If you cannot provide OBJECTIVE HARD EMPIRICAL EVIDENCE, then any assertion is given these eleven razors:

The Eleven Razors:

  1. Sagan’s Razor: Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence.
  2. Hitchens’s Razor: What can be asserted without evidence can be dismissed without evidence.
  3. Arakish’s Razor: NO EVIDENCE = NO EXISTENCE. Or, if there is no evidence for “it,” then “it” does not exist.
  4. Xenoview’s Razor: Objective claims requires objective evidence.
  5. Randomhero1982’s Razor: If it's not evidenced, it's bollocks.
  6. Cognostic’s Razor: Any dweeb can make an assertion.
  7. LogicFTW’s Razor: You MUST first prove your religion/claim is not a con.
  8. CyberLN’s Razor: A nice vinaigrette dressing must be served with any word salad.
  9. Nyarlathotep’s Razor: Homines quod muta (People is dumb).
  10. Philip K Dick’s Razor: Reality is that which, when you stop believing in it, doesn't go away.
  11. Tin-Man’s Butter Knife: Any ridiculous nonsense presented will be countered with opposing ridiculous nonsense of an equal or greater amount.
  • Cognostic’s Shovel: When someone starts slinging bullshit at you, get a shovel and sling it back.

rmfr

Sky Pilot's picture
SV,

SV,

"When a man departs from this world, he reaches the air, which makes an opening there for him like the hole of a chariot-wheel. He goes upwards through that and reaches the sun, who makes an opening there for him like the hole of a tabor. He goes upwards through that and reaches the moon, who makes an opening there for him like the hole of a drum."

Everyone knows by now that when you die you go to the moon before you go to the sun. How did they get that wrong when it is so obvious?

svhyd's picture
@Diotrephes

@Diotrephes

Ha ha, yes, they got that one wrong. From Wikipedia on Brahmagupta, the Indian astronomer:

In chapter seven of his Brahmasphutasiddhanta, entitled Lunar Crescent, Brahmagupta rebuts the idea that the Moon is farther from the Earth than the Sun, an idea which had been suggested by Vedic scripture. He does this by explaining the illumination of the Moon by the Sun.

7.1. If the moon were above the sun, how would the power of waxing and waning, etc., be produced from calculation of the [longitude of the] moon? the near half [would be] always bright.

7.2. In the same way that the half seen by the sun of a pot standing in sunlight is bright, and the unseen half dark, so is [the illumination] of the moon [if it is] beneath the sun.

7.3. The brightness is increased in the direction of the sun. At the end of a bright [i.e. waxing] half-month, the near half is bright and the far half dark. Hence, the elevation of the horns [of the crescent can be derived] from calculation. [...]

But remember we are talking about souls here, so they can choose to visit the Sun first then come back to the Moon :)

Cognostic's picture
1. When a man departs from

1. When a man departs from this world? Are we using a euphemism or asserting someone is actively departing? One means dying and the other "saying goodbye."
It you assert is is "departing, going on a journey, saying goodbye," you have a burden of proof. What we see is a dead body and nothing more.

2. He reaches the air? He has lived in the air his whole life. WTF does that mean? Not to sound repetitive but the guy is not reaching anything, he's dead.

3. The air makes an opening like a chariot wheel. This has never been witnessed, measured or observed in any way. You must evidence the claim. As far as we know, the air does nothing at all.

4. The dead body goes upward and reaches the sun? 3.5 million degrees F (2 million degrees C). Large bubbles of hot plasma form a soup of ionized atoms and move upward to the photosphere. The temperature in the photosphere is about 10,000 degrees F (5,500 degrees C). If you think something is going up there and surviving - please provide some evidence.

5. The sun has a hole and a supply of tabors? Okay - fucking stupid.

6. Then he goes upward and reaches the moon? Obviously not Earth's moon, he passed that a couple years ago.

7. Some moon opens a hole. Who the fuck knows. We are so far out in LaLa land anything is possible. Have a happy eternity. I lost three IQ points just reading the story. Some village is obviously sad today for they have lost their idiot.

Any claim that deals with real things is falsifiable. We can observe the air, the sun, the moon, dead bodies, etc.... If you make claims about them, you have a burden of proof, Falsifiable or not, if you can not cite evidence for your claim, it can simply be rejected.

Eschatological Verification: If it can only be falsified after death, how in the hell would anyone ever know about it. You have to die to prove it and since people do not come back from the dead (no one ever came back from the dead and said "Hey, I learned about Eschatological Verification while I was dead." We can not possibly know this. It's a made up story. Please cite evidence for the assertion that someone can prove something after they are dead.

svhyd's picture
@Cognostic

@Cognostic

4. The dead body goes upward and reaches the sun? 3.5 million degrees F (2 million degrees C). Large bubbles of hot plasma form a soup of ionized atoms and move upward to the photosphere. The temperature in the photosphere is about 10,000 degrees F (5,500 degrees C).

'dead body' here means the human soul and the soul is supposedly not affected by temperature fluctuations.

If you think something is going up there and surviving - please provide some evidence.

Why does claimant need to produce evidence for you to tell whether the claim is falsifiable or not?

The post is not about who has the burden of proof, it obviously lies with the claim maker. The post is about on what grounds can you say the claim is non-falsifiable. The post is also not about the afterlife claim being true or false because as I understand, falsifiability has nothing to do with the claim being true or not. E.g., Russell's teapot even if true is not falsifiable.

Any claim that deals with real things is falsifiable. We can observe the air, the sun, the moon, dead bodies, etc.... If you make claims about them, you have a burden of proof, Falsifiable or not, if you can not cite evidence for your claim, it can simply be rejected.

This is what I was trying to get at, so you are saying that the soul is not connected to the physical world therefore any claims about it are non-falsifiable?

Cognostic's picture
@SV

@SV
'"dead body' here means the human soul and the soul is supposedly not affected by temperature fluctuations."

No it doesn't. I can read. It says "dead body." If the writer wanted to refer to a soul, he or she would have said "soul." He didn't. You are inferring "soul." Why would you do that? There is no reason to assume anything called a "soul" exists anywhere. You can not assume what the author did not intend and you assert anything called a soul into existence without evidence.

Falsifiable? Sure it's falsifiable. You can produce a soul and show it to me. You can then drag this soul to the sun and back and demonstrate it has survived. Failing that - the claim is certainly unfalsifiable.

Russell's teapot is in fact falsifiable. All you have to do is hop in your little flying saucer and search all of space. Russell's magical, non-corporal, invisible, spiritual teapot is non-falsifiable. (A teapot is a real thing. Space is a real thing. Orbits are real things.)

The soul is not connected to the real world? What soul. I have no idea what you are talking about. You would need to define the concept before it can be effectively discussed.

svhyd's picture
@Cognostic

@Cognostic

If you click on the link in the OP, there's commentary which says:

This section describes the goal and the result of all meditations. When a man who knows those meditations departs from this world, gives up the body, he reaches the air, which remains crosswise in the sky, motionless and impenetrable. The air makes an opening there, in its own body—separates the parts of its own body, i.e. makes a hole in it—for him, as he comes. What is the size of that hole? Like the hole of a chariot-wheel, which is of a well-known size. He, the sage, goes upwards (lit. upward-bound) through that and reaches the sun. The sun stands blocking the way for the prospective traveller to the world of Brahman; he too lets a sage with this kind of meditation pass. He makes an opening there for him like the hole of a tabour (Lambara), a kind of musical instrument. He goes upwards through that and reaches the moon. She too makes an opening there for him like the hole a drum, the size of which is well known. He goes upwards through that and reaches a world, that of Hiraṇyagarbha. What kind of world? Free from grief, i.e. mental troubles, and from cold, i.e. physical sufferings. Reaching it, he lives there for eternal years, i.e. for many cycles of ours, which constitute the lifetime of Hiraṇyagarbha.

That's why I assumed it's talking about the human soul and not the physical body. See Wikipedia for Brahman and Hiraṇyagarbha.

Russell's teapot is in fact falsifiable. All you have to do is hop in your little flying saucer and search all of space. Russell's magical, non-corporal, invisible, spiritual teapot is non-falsifiable. (A teapot is a real thing. Space is a real thing. Orbits are real things.)

Not in the way Russell defined it:

If I were to suggest that between the Earth and Mars there is a china teapot revolving about the sun in an elliptical orbit, nobody would be able to disprove my assertion provided I were careful to add that the teapot is too small to be revealed even by our most powerful telescopes. But if I were to go on to say that, since my assertion cannot be disproved, it is an intolerable presumption on the part of human reason to doubt it, I should rightly be thought to be talking nonsense. If, however, the existence of such a teapot were affirmed in ancient books, taught as the sacred truth every Sunday, and instilled into the minds of children at school, hesitation to believe in its existence would become a mark of eccentricity and entitle the doubter to the attentions of the psychiatrist in an enlightened age or of the Inquisitor in an earlier time.

What if the teapot is the size of a fingernail? How will you falsify something designed not to be easily found?

The soul is not connected to the real world? What soul. I have no idea what you are talking about. You would need to define the concept before it can be effectively discussed.

Agree I think this is where the problem is with the original claim. It needs to define the terms. Let's say the book which made the original claim also has definitions for all the other terms. Even then I'm guessing I still need to show you a sample soul...so this is where evidence of a soul comes in because you cannot disprove a claim about something you don't fully understand?

Cognostic's picture
SV: " I assumed " STOP

SV: " I assumed " STOP ASSUMING!!! How dense do you want to be?

YES THE WAR RUSSEL DEFINED IT: China tea pots are real. The space between the Real Earth and the Real Moon is REAL. You can in FACT disprove Russel's assertion by exploring every square inch of space between the earth and the moon. At no point did I suggest using a telescope. I told you to hop in your flying saucer and begin searching.

"What if the teapot is the size of a fingernail? " THEN YOU WOULD SEARCH EVERY BIT OF SPACE FOR A FINGERNAIL SIZED CHINESE TEAPOT. The claim is falsifiable. The claim is not falsifiable if the teapot is invisible, non-corporal, omniscient, magical, spiritual, and omnipresent. (Terms which all need to be clearly defined before you can begin your search.) You find something not easily found by looking harder.

I have no idea what you are talking about when you use the word soul. I gave you a pic of the heart's anatomy, please point to the structure you are talking about.

Why would I disclaim something I don't understand? I do not have to believe what I don't understand until evidence is given to understand. You are confused. No one needs disclaim anything. It is enough to not believe as the claim has not been shown to have sufficient evidence supporting it. If you think there is a soul, show the evidence. Otherwise you are just making shit up. Where is it and what is it? STOP MAKING ASSUMPTIONS!!!

svhyd's picture
@Cognostic

@Cognostic

I have no idea what you are talking about when you use the word soul. I gave you a pic of the heart's anatomy, please point to the structure you are talking about.

I use the word soul/atman in this sense (from Wikipedia):

The six orthodox schools of Hinduism believe that there is Ātman (soul, self) in every being.

... These texts state that the core of every person's self is not the body, nor the mind, nor the ego, but "Ātman", which means "soul" or "self". Atman is the spiritual essence in all creatures, their real innermost essential being. It is eternal, it is the essence, it is ageless. Atman is that which one is at the deepest level of one's existence.

It's a metaphysical concept like 'God,' so I cannot "show" it you. I'm not here to prove that souls exist because I don't believe they really exist. I think you misunderstood the intent of my original post.

I'm only "making assumptions" and defining the terms involved so we can have a conversation about the claim.

Why would I disclaim something I don't understand? I do not have to believe what I don't understand until evidence is given to understand. You are confused. No one needs disclaim anything. It is enough to not believe as the claim has not been shown to have sufficient evidence supporting it. If you think there is a soul, show the evidence. Otherwise you are just making shit up. Where is it and what is it?

As I've already admitted this is where the problem is with the original claim. If a soul cannot be demonstrated to exist, how can I disprove a claim about the soul's movements? (I get it now)

Re: Russell's teapot, I still think it's a non-falsifiable because it can take you forever to find that teapot. Even if you come back saying you didn't find it, I can say you did not search for it properly or missed a certain area of space. Simply having the means to begin a search doesn't make the claim falsifiable.

Cognostic's picture
@SV: I don't care what the 6

@SV: I don't care what the 6 schools believe. What in the hell are they calling a soul? If there are 6 schools, it should be an easy question to answer.

What in the hell is metaphysical and if you can't show it how in the world do you know it's there?

If it takes you forever, it is still falsifiable. The fact that we are dealing with a real object in real space makes it falsifiable. Teapots exist, I have one in my kitchen. The earth exists, I am standing on it. Orbits exists, I can watch the moon. The moon exists. If there is a real teapot orbiting the earth it can be found. It does not matter how long it takes you.

Nyarlathotep's picture
The claim that Russell's

The claim that Russell's teapot exists is unfalsifiable. The claim that it doesn't exist is falsifiable; all you have to do is go find it.

Old man shouts at clouds's picture
@ SV

@ SV

This is what I was trying to get at, so you are saying that the soul is not connected to the physical world therefore any claims about it is non-falsifiable?

OK I will address the elephant in the corner....what and where the fuck is a "soul"? Please evidence these things exist. Without that there is no reason to accept any of this nonsense.

svhyd's picture
@Old man shouts ...

@Old man shouts ...

Good question, here's one definition of soul/atman from another Hindu scripture:

6. This ātman is in the heart. Here, there are a hundred and one nerves. Every one of these has a hundred brandies; again, every one of these has seventy-two thousand sub-branches. In these, vyāna moves.

Shankara’s Commentary:

Com.—In the heart, i.e., in the ākāsa of the heart, enclosed within a lump of flesh of the form of a lotus, is this ātman, i.e., the subtle body connected with the ātman. Here, i.e., in the heart, are the chief nerves, a hundred and one in number. Every one of these chief nerves has a hundred branches. Every one of these branches has seventy-two thousand sub-branches. In these nerves, moves vyāna (so called, because he is all-pervading). Vyāna stays pervading the whole body through the going out from the heart everywhere within the body, as rays from the sun, especially in the joints, shoulders and vital parts. Growing active in the interim between the activities of the prāna and the apāna, it is able to perform deeds requiring great strength.

I don't have evidence for any of these claims. All I'm looking for is a good explanation to reject these claims as non-falsifiable. I don't want to reject them by saying 'there's no proof for any of these claims' because that reason has nothing to do with falsifiability.

Old man shouts at clouds's picture
@ SV

@ SV

I wouldn't ask for 'proof' anyway. But I cannot react to a claim that is not accompanied by some evidence for its basic premise. i.e. that a "soul" exists. Another claim in a book is not evidence.

Any subsequent claims must be held in abeyance until the Prime claim (that a soul or souls exist) is substantiated or at least probable.

If this is not substantiated then Universe Creating Blue Bunnies come into play as does Eric the Rainbow Farting Unicorn Who Lives in MY Garage. They are also unsubstantiated claims with sub claims attached.

Note: "Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence or they can be dismissed without examination"

svhyd's picture
@Old man shouts ...

@Old man shouts ...

Another claim in a book is not evidence.

Any subsequent claims must be held in abeyance until the Prime claim (that a soul or souls exist) is substantiated or at least probable.

My second quote was not to make another claim. It's just defining atman or soul because you asked for it. Yes, the way these things are defined, one claim leads to another.

Note: "Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence or they can be dismissed without examination"

Yes, I'm aware of Hitchen's razor as well. But this isn't about evidence and dismissing claims that don't have evidence. This is only about falsifiability, in theory. E.g., 'the Moon is made entirely of cheese' is in theory falsifiable (all one needs to do is find a moon-rock to disprove the claim), even if no one has visited the Moon and collected any samples. But I agree we need to have good understanding of both 'Moon' and 'cheese' in order to say the claim is falsifiable or not.

Old man shouts at clouds's picture
@ SV

@ SV

This is only about falsifiability, in theory. E.g., 'the Moon is made entirely of cheese' is in theory falsifiable (all one needs to do is find a moon-rock to disprove the claim), even if no one has visited the Moon and collected any samples. But I agree we need to have good understanding of both 'Moon' and 'cheese' in order to say the claim is falsifiable or not.

A false analogy. There is ample evidence that the moon exists. There is ample evidence that cheese exists. They are not theoretical claims.

There is no evidence for the soul, which is the basis for the claim in your verses. Therefore the claim must be dismissed without evidence. No need to falsify at all.

However a correct analogy would be that Eric, the Rainbow Farting Unicorn lives in my garage and eats marshmallows all day and poops Reeces peanut cups; that is a claim. LIke your verses we have evidence for physical, observable objects, that my garage exists, we have evidence for marshmallows, we have evidence for Reeces Peanut Cups..but where the whole edifice falls down and does not require any further thought is that we have no evidence for Eric the Rainbow Farting Unicorn. Therefore there is no need to address the matter or attempt falsification.

Do you get it now?

svhyd's picture
@ Old man shouts ...

@ Old man shouts ...

Like your analogy better. Thanks. I was only calling 'Moon is made entirely of cheese' a theoretical claim for the sake of discussion just like Russell's teapot.

Cognostic's picture
@SV: "This ātman is in the

@SV: "This ātman is in the heart."
What the fuck is an atman. I have never seen one in a x-ray. I have also studied anatomy and physiology, I have never seen the word in any of my text books. I guess you will have to point it out to me. Perhaps you are just confusing some Hindu word for an English word that you don't happen to know. (I've attached an image that should help.)

Please indicate the structures you are talking about and get back to us.

You want a good explanation for rejecting the claims? ("That which is asserted without evidence can be rejected without evidence.)
You do not get to assert things into existence.

Attachments

Attach Image/Video?: 

Yes
dogalmighty's picture
Everybody knows that physics

Everybody knows that physics and certain physical laws prove that a soul, does not exist, and thusly, for the same reason, prayer is complete bunk too...and likely demonic possession to boot. Not sure about evidencing that they exist, but we have evidenced that they don't exist.

Sapporo's picture
Any claim that says something

Any claim that says something exists for eternity cannot be proved true or false.

Nyarlathotep's picture
@SV

@SV

Let's just take the first sentence:

Version 1: When a man departs from this world, he reaches the AIR, which makes an opening there for him like the hole of a chariot-wheel.

Now let's imagine someone comes up to you can tells you:

Version 2: When a man departs from this world, he reaches the SAND, which makes an opening there for him like the hole of a chariot-wheel.
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------
How can you empirically test to see which (if any) of these are accurate? There seems to be no way. It's unfalsifiable.

Tin-Man's picture
Re: OP - "Are religious

Re: OP - "Are religious claims about afterlife and rebirth falsifiable?"

Seems to me everybody is making this waaaaaay more complicated than necessary. Just go dig up some dead guy and ask him. (Dang. And I'M the one here without a brain? Sheesh!)

dogalmighty's picture
Chortle.

Chortle.

arakish's picture
Unfalsifiability = NO

Unfalsifiability = NO EVIDENCE = NO EXISTENCE.

rmfr

LogicFTW's picture
@OP by SV

@OP by SV

Are religious claims about afterlife and rebirth falsifiable?

Yes, they are falsifiable. Instead of complicating it, you simplify it.

The real simple answer: with a non functioning brain, consciousness stops.

There have been many studies on the brain. If you touch the exposed brain in the correct spot, a robot like response occurs (same can be done with electrodes placed on the skull/brain.) If a portion of the brain is missing the corresponding area of the brain function is lost. (Sometimes it can heal or reroute these processes, but at least temporarily the function is lost.) A concussion resulting in a black out even short amnesia is also evidence of this.

We like to place mystical properties on this "soul" concept, but in the real world with actual testing, the human brain is extraordinarily complex, but without a functioning brain all these complex functions like sense of self stop.

 
 

▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬

I am an atheist that always likes a good debate
Please include @LogicFTW for responses to me
Tips on forum use. ▮ A.R. Member since 2016.
▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬

Sheldon's picture
It falsifies itself, by

It falsifies itself, by contradicting known physiological and scientific facts. Well if you care about believing what is objectively true it does anyway. Those who are happy to believe unevidenced woo woo won't care.

Donating = Loving

Heart Icon

Bringing you atheist articles and building active godless communities takes hundreds of hours and resources each month. If you find any joy or stimulation at Atheist Republic, please consider becoming a Supporting Member with a recurring monthly donation of your choosing, between a cup of tea and a good dinner.

Or make a one-time donation in any amount.