The assumption of design from complexity.

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David Killens's picture
It is a tactic by dishonest

It is a tactic by dishonest people. I usually speak from the heart, and although I do a final edit before I click to post, my responses are usually conceived at that moment. But for those who have a dishonest agenda, they are VERY careful with what they post, and what they reveal. I recall many times just fighting to discover what 'faith" the theist is practicing.

It is sad, because IMO it is not about winning and losing, but a healthy exchange of opinions and ideas. Personally, I have revised my stand on certain subjects because while in this forum, I have learned, and also learned that I was wrong on some stuff.

xenoview's picture
Royism turned out to be a

Royism turned out to be a troll? Really? FFSWTF!

Tin-Man's picture
@Xeno Re: "Royism turned out

@Xeno Re: "Royism turned out to be a troll? Really? FFSWTF!"

I know, right?... *rolling eyes*... But wait! It gets better! For all practical appearances, it almost seems as if our recent Muslim member calling "herself" Leper (for obvious reasons) has been studying under the direct tutelage of our self-proclaimed Islamic expert. Will miracles never cease?

Rabbi Mark's picture
How does complexity account

How does complexity account for a Designer?

Answer, Just think. Consider a cellphone, You have two ways to account for its existence. One that the particles/molecules/atoms came together by themselves. Secondly, it was created by a designer.

In the first model, it sounds quite logical to believe that they came together in such a way that they appear to be an intelligent design. But the problem with this is those particles are not capable of doing it the "coming together" by themselves. They need some force to act upon them and the force now calls a new entity, since force cannot exist on its own unless exhibited by an entity. And if to be fair, a rationalist, we must ask the question where did this entity come from, This will call for the existence of another entity and that for another and that for another and so on. So you see how this question keeps going on until you say "Well this entity was there forever - nothing before it; and this must be independent of time too". Stephen Hawking did the same. This we can call as the evolutionary model.

Now, in the evolutionary model the predecessor of every entity must be less complex or else you will end up calling for a highly sophisticated being (a God). In the creation model the whole thing starts from a highly sophisticated entity or being (a God). Now the whole question boils down to two, whether a particle incapable of thinking (doing logical processes), incapable of doing any process physical, chemical or anything (since preceding entities must be less complex or else they themselves become god's) made us OR was it an intelligent being who used some particles gave some attributes to them and modified them into such ways that they are as the variety of particles and later put those particles in such a way that they appear as the different variety of beings (Cellphones in this case) that we see around us today.

The same applies with the Universe, either you say that a dumb, no complex particle somehow subjected itself to time and made force out of thin air and out of a random chance got affected by the same force it made out and by chance the force made it into a little complex being and again made new forces out of thin air and these new forces affected in a new way, the same entity that brought forth them out of nowhere such that the entity added more complexity to it and the same continued for billions of years (of course you will need it or else you will be demanded of proof!) until we came up and are seeing just one portion of this whole magic show of the dumb particle OR you say, that an intelligent being (Independent of time/ Without a beginning or predecessor) took some particles (belonging to a higher dimension) and modified those dumb particles into the variety of particles that we see about us and put those particles in such an order that we see many organs and put those organs in such a way that we see them as different beings.

So you see, the whole thing can be concluded this way. Either you call a dumb particle the creator or you call an Intelligent being the Creator. And I am reminding, there is no middle ground (atheism) unless you stop asking "Why?How?" (or your questioning is shallow). Either you are a materialist (you call a no complex particle as your god) or you are a creationist (you call a Being as you God)

More points to consider;

-- If the evolutionary model is true, then if a dumb particle incapable of sensing anything (since things must be no complex or you assume an entity/being), incapable of storing data (Memory) and incapable of doing logical process/es (thinking) can evolve into the more complex universe around us over billions of years through random processes then an entity capable of sensing, storing those senses (data) and also capable of processing them and putting them into an order of its own (being creative) must be able to do evolve at a much faster rate, not even a few days and we should be seeing our cellphones and computers sense their lagging behind humans and grow themselves hands and legs to compete with men and in a short time by their processing, sensing and storing power be able to create new universes and stars and new earths every single day. But you don't any of them do it. WHY? They have their own limits. They can only exhibit the properties that are in them but cannot make new properties for themselves. And again this calls for a Creator to out in properties into these particles.

-- Also, there is a good reason why evolutionary model can't be true. Since, it would mean that every thought and action that we do are just bio-chemical reactions that happen in our brain and bio-mechanical reactions of our organs. In which case nothing can be true and nothing can be false. If so, nothing can be said as a evidence for a concept and nothing can be called a concept. Since everything is just a blabbering of the mouth due to some fluids running around inside some tubes called the brain trying to find the exit. But we see in reality that everyone of us can sense what is true and false (We have a 'common' sense), We can understand the data that our eyes see, our ears hear, our senses feel and we are able to process the data AT OUR WILL and make conclusions or change opinions, create new ideas and so on. All in all our body is just a biological computer over which we have authority and we are beings of higher dimensions (are Souls) and we have been given control of this body by our Maker. Of course, this body has to do different reactions to show/do different processes (thinking, walking, talking,etc) but that does not mean that these are capable of creating themselves out of nothing all by themselves. This leaves us with only one option to say that we are the creation of an Intelligent Being whose methods of creation we have not fully understood due to our lack of knowledge.

-- Thirdly, evolutionary model is full of randomness, what today happens may not happen tomorrow. So it provides no place for science. Since science is the study of the laws that govern processes and these laws don't change with time. This combined with the point above strongly prove evolution is harmful to science.

HOPE, YOUR FINGERS ARE NOT WRITHING AS THEY ARE HITTING SOME KEYBOARD KEYS IN RANDOM BECAUSE OF SOME FLUIDS RUNNING AROUND YOUR TUBES CALLED BRAIN BECAUSE SOME RANDOM LIGHT FROM A MONITOR JUST HIT YOUR EYES WHEN YOU SAW MY REPLY.

Talyyn's picture
@Rabbi Mark

@Rabbi Mark

HOPE, YOUR FINGERS ARE NOT WRITHING AS THEY ARE HITTING SOME KEYBOARD KEYS IN RANDOM BECAUSE OF SOME FLUIDS RUNNING AROUND YOUR TUBES CALLED BRAIN BECAUSE SOME RANDOM LIGHT FROM A MONITOR JUST HIT YOUR EYES WHEN YOU SAW MY REPLY.

You think you're wise, strong and holy with these few lines written in capital letters?

Rabbi Mark's picture
No, I think I am wise because

No, I think I am wise because I know what is true. I think I am strong because my enemies with their foolish theories are weak. I know I am holy because I do what is good and certainly not because of a few lines I typed into the computer. Hope I've cleared your doubts!

Sheldon's picture
"No, I think I am wise

"No, I think I am wise because I know what is true. I think I am strong because my enemies with their foolish theories are weak. I know I am holy because I do what is good and certainly not because of a few lines I typed into the computer. Hope I've cleared your doubts!"

That sounds like vapid rhetoric to me, the kind of arrogant hubris most theists exhibit when they come here to preach at the atheists with their faux piety and nauseating self righteous tone.

Objective evidence is what shows us if something has any validity, and the best method is science, and the pinnacle of scientific evidence is a valid scientific theory. Its risible when anyone shows they don't even know what the phrase means. Morality is subjective of course it cannot be otherwise, but all animals that have evolved to live in societal groups exhibit the ability to differentiate between right and wrong behaviour. The precursors of human morality were derived from our evolved instincts, and our evolved intellects allow us to reason the best action based on our innate empathy for other humans, and to a lesser extent all conscious animals. The word holy usually means a blinkered closed minded adherence to an archaic set of rules from a vapid superstition.

Even Nazis managed to blindly follow rules they'd been indoctrinated to believe were "right". I think I have at least enough humility to know that my own ignorance is all pervasive, and that at the very least my morals should encompasse the golden rule, and recognise the inherent value in a single human life. I don't care if my actions please the subjective whim of an unevidenced deity, as even if it existed it's inherent morality would have to be manifest to me, but of course there isn't a shred of objective evidence for any deity anyway.

I owe my moral allegiance to the well being of conscious living things, not imaginary bronze age deities.

LogicFTW's picture
@Rabbi Mark

@Rabbi Mark

Are you actually a Rabbi? How old are you?
Just curious.

I will keep my suspicions of sock puppet... mostly!.. to myself...

Talyyn's picture
No, I think I am wise because

No, I think I am wise because I know what is true. I think I am strong because my enemies with their foolish theories are weak. I know I am holy because I do what is good and certainly not because of a few lines I typed into the computer. Hope I've cleared your doubts!

What is true? How did you come to know what is true? Now we are enemies? Why so? Because I do not believe in your sacred, absolute and self evident truth?.

Foolish theories? Do you understand what is is? In what sense are they foolish? Give me a list of major things you do you consider good?

At last, for what reasons did you choose this pseudonym?

Leper's picture
@Talyyn

@Talyyn

"You think you're wise, strong and holy with these few lines written in capital letters?"

It seems to work for Cognostic. Ever time he types with capital letters I become more and more convinced he possesses the highest intelligence compared to the rest of us.

In fact, I auaully don't even read the parts he writes uncapitalized.

Sheldon's picture
Leper "It seems to work for

Leper "It seems to work for Cognostic. Ever time he types with capital letters I become more and more convinced he possesses the highest intelligence compared to the rest of us.

In fact, I auaully don't even read the parts he writes uncapitalized."

You seem more than a little obsessed with Cognostic, but has been posting here for a long time, and is clearly an erudite and intelligent poster, I have seen nothing in your posts yet to remotely suggest the same can be said if you.Maybe capital letters just make things easier for you to understand?

Talyyn's picture
@Leper

@Leper

I highly doubt that he consider himself the mos intelligent but I do understand why he is extremely annoyed by the amount of stupidity thrown at us by believers.

Tin-Man's picture
Re: Rabbi Mark

Re: Rabbi Mark

What... The... Fuck... was all of that psychobabble blithering nonsense??? Oh, dear lord! Was anybody able to make it all the way through that quagmire?

LogicFTW's picture
@Rabbi Mark

@Rabbi Mark

I did not get very far into your post before it became pretty clear to me that you do not understand evolution, or just choose to dismiss it. Evolution is a far FAR! better explanation then your heavily plagiarized "god" concept.

Reading a little further into your post, it looks you do not really understand the scientific method and modern tools of discovery/learning eithir.

Both above are understandable, if you are going to believe in your particular god concept nonsense, you have to eithir ignore or choose to not fully accept and/or understand both the scientific method and the evolution theory.

I get it, change is scary, realizing and admitting to yourself that you been conned, along with many other important people in your life is a very scary thought. Admitting to your self you wasted probably decades of your life on a lie and helped spread that lie to others... can be a crushing realization.

Leper's picture
@LogicFTW

@LogicFTW

"Evolution is a far FAR! better explanation then your heavily plagiarized "god" concept."

You speak as if the theory of evolution and the theory that God created everything somehow exclude each other. I hope I am wrong..

LogicFTW's picture
@leper

@leper

You speak as if the theory of evolution and the theory that God created everything somehow exclude each other.

They mostly do exclude each other, largely by design on the various popular religions part, long before Darwin was even born.

It also looks like you do not properly understand what "theory" means when in used in context of scientific findings, results, consensus etc. A common mistake.

Leper's picture
@LogicFTW

@LogicFTW

Well, you're wrong. The correct view is that God has created everything, including evolution. How would that be controversial from an almighty God? I understand you don't believe in it, but if you can hypothetically think about it you should be able to see it. There are numerous religious scholars who accept evolution and frankly, all the ones among Muslims who I know of that don't, believe so for false reasons; misinterpreting Scripture or just being obstinate without any reasoning.

LogicFTW's picture
@Leper

@Leper

Well, you're wrong.

Ahh there is absolutism egotistical smug self supremacy attitude that I expect from religious apologists, you further confirm what sort of person you are. And you do not even bother to defend your assertion that I am wrong.

How would that be controversial from an almighty God?

Sure I will try and summarize a couple of reasons why evolution and god ideas (from most major religions like islam and christianity do not work.

Evolution forces us to realize a few things that do not add up to common perceptions of "god."

1.) Time.
Most religions mostly avoid talking about this, but in order for evolution to work, our planet must be old, very old. 4.5+ billion years old. And the universe to be ~14 billion years old. This does a number things that makes the common god ideas incompatible.

All major popular gods ideas have a serious problem already, they have remained completely hidden for the last 1000 years ago, even to the religiously devout. We have had no new: "son of god" coming down, and/or mass miracles being performed, we have not had any new prophets that fly away on winged horses in over 1000 years, etc.

Now we have to accept that this god idea(s) did basically nothing for 14 billion years preceding that as well? When supposedly these all powerful gods can snap their fingers to create everything? That can communicate instantly to millions of people at a time instantly from outside space and time? That a god can create the universe but must wait around 14 billion years for humans to finally evolve and then talk to them and guide them etc? Then for a few brief years (blink of an eye when compared to the age of the universe) perform miracles and pass down rules and "divine insight" for a tiny period?

Rules that are BADLY outdated, edited, translated, etc 1000 years later? That this god was perfectly okay for 100's of thousands of years humans were around that it did not talk to them and they worshipped different god ideas for those 100's of thousands of years? In the history of homo sapiens, and then possibly counting close evolutionary cousins to that god just did not care for a vast majority of the time even humans were around? All this sort of works with a 6k to 20k year old earth, but a 4.5+ billion year old planet with human ancestors (earliest primates) dating back as much as 85 million years? So god just decided our great(times a million) grand parents were not "evolved" enough to even consider talking to for another 85 million years?

2.) Evolution is more about failure then success. 99.99% of all individual species that has ever been has already gone extinct. In the last billion years there have been at least 5 major extinction events where 80+ percent of all species got wiped out, with likely more than 90% of all living things died in a short cataclysmic period. The Jurassic period dinosaurs was only one of these major extinction events.

Furthermore, we "oh so perfect designed by god humans" are well on our way to creating a 6th major extinction event in the last 1 billion years. Evolution is increasingly showing us that humans are just another "bump" along the path that may well find themselves extinct (as with most other life on this planet) in the very near future, (blink of an eye in the time span of the universe.) People like Trump and Putin having a button they can push that will end just about all life on this planet certainly does not help things in this regard!

Humans are also highly violent creatures, even though we humans have managed to completely dominate and control almost all other life on this planet, we still kill each other in incredible numbers. While overall war and murder is down world wide over the last dozen decades or so, (same time as many religions begin to lose their total control grip on just about everyone,) a vast majority of human history people killed people in great numbers, a major major flaw in design, quite often people kill each other over simply bickering over which god is "the one true god."

If evolution was "designed" by god, it shows a weak and incompetent god. I could also list dozens of aspects of human biology that hinder us rather than help us. Certain species of sharks as well as other species have effective immunity to cancer, why not humans? Humans overall very flawed creatures for supposedly being designed by an all powerful all knowing god and being god's "favored" creation.

I could go on with many more examples but I think my point here is made. I am no god, but if I was given the tools of evolution to create life and have it evolve within my lifetime, I could easily do far better. In fact we humans already in part do this with selective breeding of our food sources, like creating rice that is drought resistant and produces higher caloric yields through selective breeding or more advanced GMO processes.

3.) Biblical stories of god's wrath that supposedly encompassed the entire planet that occured within the last ~20,000 years or so (there is powerful counter evidence that no such event ever took place!) Do I really need to go into detail on this one? It should be utterly comical to all of us if it was not so scary that people actually believe the crap.

4.) It is all "unsigned" work by "god." If we are supposed to give god credit for evolution, why did he/she/it not "sign" it's work. Why must this all powerful all knowing "god" rely on humans to spread the word and give credit to him in a very crude/inefficient manner?

Why has no religion, (even wide meta religions concepts like Islam!) never surpassed even ~10% adoption percentage in the history of humans? (7.5 billion alive today, and over 100 billion that have already born and died.) If it was important for us to understand evolution is actually god, why did this all powerful almighty god utterly fail at telling us about this? Why is evolution not even vaguely mentioned in all the ancient text that supposedly came from god? Why did it fall on us humans to discover evolution and then somehow try to connect it to god story that is completely unevidenced?

I will stop here as this reply is getting long, but: if somehow this is not enough for you I, (and possibly others here,) can continue to lay on more major major issues with god being the one that gets credit for evolution.
 
 

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I am an atheist that always likes a good debate
Please include @LogicFTW for responses to me
Tips on forum use. ▮ A.R. Member since 2016.
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Leper's picture
@LogicFTW

@LogicFTW

"Ahh there is absolutism egotistical smug self supremacy attitude that I expect from religious apologists, you further confirm what sort of person you are."

Oh, I'm sorry, we're you one those who openly admit that I might be right? You're one of those doubtful atheists? Or is it that the moral standards you want to apply to me are different from those you follow yourself?

LogicFTW: " Time.
Most religions mostly avoid talking about this, but in order for evolution to work, our planet must be old, very old. 4.5+ billion years old. And the universe to be ~14 billion years old. This does a number things that makes the common god ideas incompatible."

Not at all, the Qur'an is right with this, if you've read it. The Bible,... Well, I haven't read the bible so I can't say much about that. But I do know that some, for instance, think that God literally created the world in 6 days because that's what the translation says - however the actual word in the original version doesn't have to be translated as "a day". More at:
https://www.bibleinfo.com/en/questions/did-creation-take-place-6-literal...

LogicFTW: "All major popular gods ideas have a serious problem already, they have remained completely hidden for the last 1000 years ago, even to the religiously devout. We have had no new: "son of god" coming down, and/or mass miracles being performed, we have not had any new prophets that fly away on winged horses in over 1000 years, etc."

Well in Islam Muhammad was the last prophet.

LogicFTW: "Now we have to accept that this god idea(s) did basically nothing for 14 billion years preceding that as well? When supposedly these all powerful gods can snap their fingers to create everything? That can communicate instantly to millions of people at a time instantly from outside space and time? That a god can create the universe but must wait around 14 billion years for humans to finally evolve and then talk to them and guide them etc? Then for a few brief years (blink of an eye when compared to the age of the universe) perform miracles and pass down rules and "divine insight" for a tiny period?"

Here, its funny, atheists often like to point out that theists put human characteristics on God, but that's exactly what you do and that's partly why - or at least how - you reject God. You think it absurd God would wait because...... You think that if you had magical powers you wouldn't have patience. It is no wonder Scriptures continuously tell man to be patient and to have faith that the Lord's promise is true.

2 Peter 3:3 'Above all, you must understand that in the last days scoffers will come, scoffing and following their own evil desires.'

2 Peter 3:4 'They will say, "Where is this 'coming' he promised? Ever since our ancestors died, everything goes on as it has since the beginning of creation.'

2 Peter 3:8 'But, beloved, be not ignorant of this one thing, that one day [is] with the Lord as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day.'

Time was created by God. He isn't bound by it which is again something you assume He is because you assume He is something like you when He is nothing like anyone or anything else.

LogicFTW: "Rules that are BADLY outdated, edited, translated, etc 1000 years later? That this god was perfectly okay for 100's of thousands of years humans were around that it did not talk to them and they worshipped different god ideas for those 100's of thousands of years? In the history of homo sapiens, and then possibly counting close evolutionary cousins to that god just did not care for a vast majority of the time even humans were around? All this sort of works with a 6k to 20k year old earth, but a 4.5+ billion year old planet with human ancestors (earliest primates) dating back as much as 85 million years? So god just decided our great(times a million) grand parents were not "evolved" enough to even consider talking to for another 85 million years?"

God didn't talk to them? The Qur'an says All people have been sent the message. Therefore, all people have been sent the message. How, by whom, when, what message, that no one knows.

In Islam there is speculation - according a hadith - that there have been an approximate of 124,000 prophets and messengers.

LogicFTW: "Humans are also highly violent creatures, even though we humans have managed to completely dominate and control almost all other life on this planet, we still kill each other in incredible numbers. While overall war and murder is down world wide over the last dozen decades or so, (same time as many religions begin to lose their total control grip on just about everyone,) a vast majority of human history people killed people in great numbers, a major major flaw in design, quite often people kill each other over simply bickering over which god is "the one true god.""

Again you are assuming God should think like you.

LogicFTW: "If evolution was "designed" by god, it shows a weak and incompetent god. I could also list dozens of aspects of human biology that hinder us rather than help us. Certain species of sharks as well as other species have effective immunity to cancer, why not humans? Humans overall very flawed creatures for supposedly being designed by an all powerful all knowing god and being god's "favored" creation."

Same as before. Why should we live forever? That is your human greed speaking.

LogicFTW: "3. Biblical stories of god's wrath that supposedly encompassed the entire planet that occured within the last ~20,000 years or so (there is powerful counter evidence that no such event ever took place!) Do I really need to go into detail on this one? It should be utterly comical to all of us if it was not so scary that people actually believe the crap."

Do you mean the flood? In the Qur'an it is not a global flood.

LogicFTW: "Why is evolution not even vaguely mentioned in all the ancient text that supposedly came from god?"

It is in the Qur'an.

LogicFTW's picture
@Leper

@Leper
This conversation is starting to get heavily "nested," where long replies do not work well, so I will make my response at the end of this thread.

Sheldon's picture
The scientific theory of

The scientific theory of evolution is an objectively evidenced scientific fact, I have no idea what you mean by " theory that God created everything " but not one shred of objective evidence has ever been demonstrated for any deity, and the facile creation myths attached to that belief are risible nonsense, and roundly contradicted by known scientific facts.

You need not hope, your posts suggest you are wrong more often than not.

Sheldon's picture
Please kill me now, why do

Please kill me now, why do theists not read the fucking threads? We know things (like cellphones) are designed, because we have objective evidence that they are, we can see designs of them at every stage, we can see people designing them, we can see factories where they are made, and of course we can see they NEVER OCCUR NATURALLY.

Parenthetically we also know as an objective fact that all living things evolved, because the objective evidence is overwhelming. Thus all analogies about complexity not occurring without an intelligent designer is refuted absolutely by the scientific fact of species evolution.

The next few paragraphs are an overly verbose appeal to ignorance fallacy and a false dichotomy fallacy. Not knowing how life started or fully understanding how the big bang event started isn't evidence for anything, this is the very definition of an argumentum ad ignorantiam fallacy. The you use a false dichotomy fallacy claiming we are limited to two choices of either having a natural explanation or it being a deity using magic. We can simply not know, and of course what we do know as an objective fact is that natural phenomena are possible, we have no objective evidence that anything supernatural is even possible. Here is the false dichotomy fallacy...

"Either you call a dumb particle the creator or you call an Intelligent being the Creator."

Note the use of the word creator, this assumption for the very thing being argued for is called a begging the question fallacy.

Now look at this...

"Either you are a materialist (you call a no complex particle as your god) or you are a creationist (you call a Being as you God)"

Another false dichotomy fallacy, note the way this poster equates someone having the intellectual integrity to admit they don't have an answer to a specific problem is "giving up" and stopping asking why or how. Hilarious, as the only reason to ask why or how is if we admit to ignorance, this is of course the fundamental basis of scientific endeavour, the courage and humility to admit we are ignorant, Compare that to the arrogant hubris of religions that claim access to absolute truth.

"prove evolution is harmful to science."

Nothing on any news channel? The entire scientific world seems to have missed this, and the worlds press, Hell even the theistic world seems unaware if this....FUCKING HILARIOUS.

And before anyone says anything, yes I also strongly suspect this cretin is trolling, but I had a few minutes to kill.

Cognostic's picture
@Rabbi Mark: COMPLEXITY

@Rabbi Mark: COMPLEXITY ACCOUNTS FOR DESIGN: Don't be a fucktard, go back and read the frigging posts that have already been made before asserting inane BULLSHIT that has already been debunked.

YOU WANNA KNOW WHAT COMPLEXITY REALLY ACCOUNTS FOR? Complexity accounts for all the idiots incapable of reading a science book and making sense out of it spouting off utter nonsense and assuming they are correct. Why? Obviously anything complex is just too difficult for them to understand so they make up ignorantly simple fairy tales and pretend they can understand.

Cognostic's picture
@Rabbi Mark: LETS LOOK AT

@Rabbi Mark: LETS LOOK AT THIS BULLSHIT POINT BY POINT.

1. re: Two ways for a cell phone to come together "One that the particles/molecules/atoms came together by themselves." ARE YOU STUPID? NO CELL PHONE HAS EVER COME TOGETHER BECAUSE ATOMS AND MOLECULES CAME TOGETHER. WE KNOW EXACTLY HOW CELL PHONES ARE MADE. HAVE YOU EVER BEEN INSIDE A SCIENCE CLASS? THIS IS NOT, NOR HAS IT EVER BEEN AN OPTION. YOUR COMPARISON IS ILLOGICAL, NONSENSICAL, JUVENILE, AND OBVIOUSLY A FALLACIOUS ATTEMPT AT A COMPARISON. (FALSE ANALOGY).

2. People create cell phones. We are the designers. "What's your point?" We do not need another entity. Cell phones are produced in factories by human beings.

3. We do not keep going and going. What the fuck are you talking about. You can watch a cell phone being made from scratch if you just go to the local factory and ask for a tour. What fucking planet are you living on?

4. RE: " -- If the evolutionary model is true, then if a dumb particle incapable of sensing anything (since things must be no complex or you assume an entity/being), incapable of storing data (Memory) and incapable of doing logical process/es (thinking)" NO NO NO NO NO NO..... We do not assume any of this and have never seen it demonstrated. What in the fuck are you on about? Simple chemical interactions and the bonding atoms and molecules are natural phenomena and responsible for everything we currently know of. It's not a fucking mystery.

EVOLUTION: You don't even know what evolution is. Have you had a semester of High School Biology yet? You really are ignorant. Evolution has nothing at all to do with the "Creation of Life." Evolution is responsible for the diversity of life. You have your theories all confused because you have learned biology from the pulpit and not from someone who knows what in the hell they are talking about. Evolution says NOTHING AT ALL ABOUT THE CREATION OF LIFE! NOTHING!!

5. re: --" Also, there is a good reason why evolutionary model can't be true. Since, it would mean that every thought and action that we do are just bio-chemical reactions that happen in our brain and bio-mechanical reactions of our organs"

Obviously you are completely ignorant of modern trends on neuro-biology and the writings of people like Daniel Dennett or Sam Harris. It may very well be, according to these folks, that there is no free will - At least not in the way we understand it.. Educate yourself and watch the links below.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vCGtkDzELAI

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pCofmZlC72g

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VnGDrc_s6KA

6. RE: " Either you call a dumb particle the creator or you call an Intelligent being the Creator. " NO! You either have a magical creator or you have "Natural Causes." All evidence points to "Natural Causes." No evidence what so ever points to a magical creator being. NONE. If you think you have some, please post it.

FOR THE UNIVERSE TO BE CREATED, YOU MUST PROVIDE EVIDENCE FOR A CREATOR. So far, we have no reason at all to assume a creator is responsible for anything. We have no reason at all to assume the universe as we know it was "created" in any way. It may have an eternal property. It may have a natural cause. It may have been created by one of the other million gods in human history. How did you rule out all of the other gods and just settle on the one you like? Please demonstrate why Blue Universe Creating Bunnies did not create the universe. And when you say "Universe" do you really mean Cosmos? Have you any idea at all how big the Cosmos is? Your assertion is simplistic and inane on its surface. There is no reason to look any deeper without some form of evidence.

Leper's picture
@Cognostic

@Cognostic

Darwin didn't deny the existence of God. Just thought you should know.

Sheldon's picture
"Darwin didn't deny the

Leper "Darwin didn't deny the existence of God. Just thought you should know."

Darwin didn't deny the existence of unicorns, just thought you should know. However he lost his christian faith, this is a well evidenced fact, though atheists are not as obsessed with it as theists seem to be. He never believed in the Islamic religion at all of course, but hey, keep taking the cheap shots, I'm sure you'll hit your stride and offer something of value soon, then again...

Cognostic's picture
@Leper: RE: Darwin's God/

@Leper: RE: Darwin's God/ "Duh! Thank you Mrs. Obvious."

Just Thought you should know - Some Muslims drink camel piss as a part of their faith. It was prescribed by Muhammad. It keeps them healthy and cures AIDS. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OwA19n8tsWQ

Yummy! I wonder if it helps intelligence? Have you ever thought of having a nice camel tea before bedtime?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JKeSrq7t6Ak

Leper's picture
@cognostic

@cognostic
This habit of your forefathers was prohibited by Muhammad.

Cognostic's picture
@Leper: RE: This habit of

@Leper: RE: This habit of your forefathers was prohibited by Muhammad.

"God" ---- errrr --- I mean "Allah you are ignorant." Didn't you watch any of the videos. IT IS GOING ON TODAY!! You have been given the sources....

WANT SOME MORE? THERE ARE WELL OVER A DOZEN.

saheeh hadeeth: The Prophet (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) told them to drink the milk and urine of camels, and they recovered and grew fat. In the story it also says that they apostatized and killed the camel-herder, then the Muslims caught them and executed them. Narrated by al-Bukhaari (2855) and Muslim (1671).

The author of al-Qanoon (the Canon) – i.e. the doctor Ibn Seena (Avicenna) – said: "The most beneficial of urine is the urine of Bedouin camels which are called najeeb."

In an article by Dr Ahlaam al-‘Awadi, which was published in al-Da’wah magazine, issue no. 1938, 25 Safar 1425 AH/15 April 2004 CE
"Camel’s urine is efficacious in the treatment of skin diseases such as ringworm, tinea and abscesses, sores that may appear on the body and hair, and dry and wet ulcers. Camel’s urine brings the secondary benefits of making the hair lustrous and thick, and removing dandruff from the scalp. Camel’s milk is also beneficial in treating hepatitis, even if it has reached an advanced stage where medicine is unable to treat it."

In the al-Jazeerah al-Sa’oodiyyah newspaper (issue no. 10132, Rabee’ al-Awwal 1421 AH) there is a quotation from the book Al-Ibl Asraar wa i’jaaz (The camel: secrets and wonders) by Darmaan ibn ‘Abd al-‘Azeez Aal Darmaan and Sanad ibn Mutlaq al-Subay’i: "Camel’s urine is beneficial in treating al-hazaaz, and it was said that al-hazzaz is a pain in the heart caused by anger and so on. Camel’s urine, especially the urine of a young she-camel – is used as a cleansing substance to wash wounds and sores, to make the hair grow, to strengthen and thicken it and to prevent it falling out, and it is used to treat diseases of the scalp and dandruff."

The dean of the Faculty of Medical Science in the Sudanese al-Jazeerah university, Professor Ahmad ‘Abd-Allaah Ahmadaani, has discovered a practical way of using camel’s urine to treat dropsy and swelling in the liver. (Medicine based on Woo Woo).

LEPER IS A TROLL
In the face of absolute facts she continues her bullshit. Lame excuses, assertions, sidetracking, utter nonsense, excuses, and BULLSHIT piled upon BULLSHIT. TROLL -

Leper's picture
That's because the people

That's because the people were very ill.

I don't care for the articles now if you haven't done anything to make sure they're true and reliable. I'm not interested enough to do your work for you - again.

The hadith is much longer than that actually. And has many others to go along side it.

"Narrated Anas: Some people from 'Uraina tribe came to Medina and its climate did not suit them, so Allah's Apostle allowed them to go to the herd of camels (given as Zakat) and they drank their milk and urine (as medicine) but they killed the shepherd and drove away all the camels. So Allah's Apostle sent (men) in their pursuit to catch them, and they were brought, and he had their hands and feet cut, and their eyes were branded with heated pieces of iron and they were left in the Harra (a stony place at Medina) biting the stones. (Sahih Bukhari, volume 1, #234)"

" Narrated Anas bin Malik: A group of eight men from the tribe of 'Ukil came to the Prophet and then they found the climate of Medina unsuitable for them. So, they said, "O Allah's Apostle! Provide us with some milk." Allah's Apostle said, "I recommend that you should join the herd of camels." So they went and drank the urine and the milk of the camels (as a medicine) till they became healthy and fat. Then they killed the shepherd and drove away the camels, and they became unbelievers after they were Muslims. When the Prophet was informed by a shouter for help, he sent some men in their pursuit, and before the sun rose high, they were brought, and he had their hands and feet cut off. Then he ordered for nails which were heated and passed over their eyes, and whey were left in the Harra (i.e. rocky land in Medina). They asked for water, and nobody provided them with water till they died (Abu Qilaba, a sub-narrator said, "They committed murder and theft and fought against Allah and His Apostle, and spread evil in the land.") (Sahih al-Bukhari, Volume 4, Book 52, Number 261)"

"The Prophet [saw] branded their eyes because they had branded the eyes of the herdsmen". (Al-Muntaqaa by Ibn al-Jarood, volume 1, Pg. 216)

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