Atheism the future of humanity

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Mario Pelayes Jr's picture
Atheism the future of humanity

Atheism in particular is a trend that is increasing, the number of non-believers grows day by day, despite the fact that the religion especially the Judeo-Christian is the one that dominates worldwide, there is a percentage of the population is abandoning their belief to declare atheists or non-believers.

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LogicFTW's picture
@Mario Pelayes Jr

@Mario Pelayes Jr

Welcome to AR, glad to have you here!

When responding to someone in particular please use @"persons name here"

I agree that atheism/agnostic/none/non-believers is on the rise, and really on the time scale of religions, it is rapidly rising. I do caution however that not all religion is in decline, the more aggressive sects of religion are expanding, and quickly. While it is hard to imagine Judeo-Christian as not being "more aggressive" A trip to some of the least secular countries can quickly highlight how much more progress is needed, and the danger of these newer more aggressive religious ideas.

Whitefire13's picture
Hi Mario! Welcome! This

Hi Mario! Welcome! This younger generation is more rational and open-minded...not as religiously inclined.

cranky47's picture
@Mario Pelayes.

@Mario Pelayes.

Welcome to the forum, have fun.

Atheism as the saviour of humanity? Afraid I'm a light year away from being convinced of that.

My reasons in brief;

(1) Some form of religious belief is universal. Christianity is a huge business, but other religions, such as Hinduism, Buddhism and islam, combined have more adherents.

(2) Like any widespread human behaviour especially, religion meets some very important human needs. Religions always reflect the societies which invent them. For religion to disappear, those needs would need to be met in other ways. Typically that means personality cults.

(3) Religion or no religion, we humans will remain the same selfishly stupid and aggressive creatures we have always been. We are currently making our planet uninhabitable is due to stupidity and greed, not religion

(4) I really don't t care about the personal superstitions of others. I DO care about corrupt and parasitic organised religions,. I'm sure they could have their wealth and power stripped way, and be forced to become the servants of the people they pretend to be . Just not this century, at least.

Cognostic's picture
@MARIO: RE: "Judeo-Christian

@MARIO: RE: "Judeo-Christian is the one that dominates." A very ethnocentric point of contention. Islam is neck and neck with the Christian faith. (This is not "domination") Pair that with the simple fact that any 1/3 of Christians will swear to you that the other 2/3 are going to burn in hell for their false beliefs and what you actually have is a bunch of minority religions all claiming to be Christian with a very wide variety of TRUE BELIEFS. 30,000 Christian sects, all believing different shit, throw contention to your assertion or domination.

The number of non-believers under the age of 25, last I heard, was at 25%. The increase you speak of is contingent on who does the measuring and how "non-believer" is classified. The language of the surveys often have an influence over the percentage claimed as non-believer. If the survey comes straight out and asks, "Are you an Atheist." The response rate is generally around 6%. It has not changed much. If more amorphous questions are asked, "Are you religious." for example, the rates climb.

Indeed. "Empty Pew Syndrome" is plaguing the nation. Theists are scrambling to fill their pews. Religion appears to be on the decline. But declining religious beliefs do not necessarily transfer to an increase in Atheism. There is a whole lot of Woo factor to consider. (Just Saying)

Lion IRC's picture
Atheism is a trend which is

Atheism is a trend which is increasing.

Here's a few others.
Hedonism - living like there's no tomorrow. (No afterlife)
Drug abuse.
Mental illness.
Domestic violence.
Suicide.

https://www.businessinsider.com/cdc-teenage-gen-z-american-suicide-epide...

Algebe's picture
@Lion IRC: Here's a few

@Lion IRC: Here's a few others....Hedonism...

And would you say that those problems are increasing more in religious or in secular communities?

Lion IRC's picture
Well, it's not a religious vs

Well, it's not a religious vs secular divide.
It's a religious vs atheistic divide.

Australia is a secular country notwithstanding the fact that religion is in the majority- albeit declining majority.
If atheism correlated - causally or otherwise- with lifestyle wellness/happiness/wisdom indices (emotional IQ) then we should expect to see domestic/gender violence, substance abuse, self-harm and suicide, mental illness etc. in decline as atheism increases.

The experience of the indigenous people (aborigines) in Australia is a rather good case study of the rapid transition from religion to non-religion. In a very short time they went from being a highly religious civilisation to being now forced into an irreligious society as per the 21st Century Western, liberal, capitalist, post-modern - and yes, secular way of life.

The affect of this change has lead to (or correlated with) terrible social pathologies in their community.
See the work of academic David Tacey as an example.

https://www.booktopia.com.au/gods-and-diseases-david-tacey/book/97804155...

ilovechloe's picture
@Lion IRC

@Lion IRC

FUCK! Please dont tell me you are Australian. Going by your logic (or lack of it) I would have guessed you were a trump supporting american! If you are australian, let me guess? Pauline hanson supporter?

Nice try blaming the problems with the aborigines on a secular irreligious way of life! Of course it would have nothing at all to do with the dispossession of their native lands, the white Australia policy & the stealing of their children, racism, the fact that missionaries forced them into camps & indoctrinated them with the christian religion, & that they were often used for virtual slave labour where they were constantly underpaid, or not paid at all!

Old man shouts at clouds's picture
@Ilovech;oe

@Ilovech;oe

I was just too gobsmacked and angry to reply to the used toerag.

David Killens's picture
@ Old man

@ Old man

"I was just too gobsmacked and angry to reply to the used toerag."

Me too, my anger is raging. It is exactly like some pervert rationalizing raping children.

Algebe's picture
@Lion IRC: The experience of

@Lion IRC: The experience of the indigenous people (aborigines) in Australia is a rather good case study of the rapid transition from religion to non-religion.

Nonsense. The state of indigenous people in Australia is an example of the worst effects of colonialism, not atheism. That process began way back in the 19th century, and the perpetrators of this great crime, including settlers, missionaries, and government officials, were unambiguously Christian. The churches were complicit in the "stolen generation" tragedy, which resulted in the forcible removal of aboriginal children from their families. That continued down to the 1960s. Pope John Paul II actually apologized for the role played by the Catholic church.
http://www.abc.net.au/worldtoday/stories/s424422.htm

Lion IRC's picture
@Algebie

@Algebie

Christianity was not an anathema to the Aborigines. It didn't take away their spirituality - it gave them continuity.
I'm arguing that the 'secularisation' of indigenous Australia that happened in the relative 'blink of an eye', (as opposed to the 800-900 years which Western civilisation has had to process the separation of Church and State,) gives us an interesting study in what happens to the collective religious psyche of a society that has its religion suddenly destroyed.

Yes, the dispossession of their land, the imposition of a foreign legal system, the paternalism (however well-intentioned), the forced transition to the English language - these were also factors. But David Tacey makes the case that it's not this head on collision with the unstoppable march of history and globalisation that has caused the greatest damage, but rather the sudden demolition of their theistic framework which had been in place for ~ 40,000 years.

Algebe's picture
@Lion IRC: Christianity was

@Lion IRC: Christianity was not an anathema to the Aborigines. It didn't take away their spirituality - it gave them continuity.

The only continuity Christianity gave the Aborigines was down the slippery slope to social and economic marginalization and near extermination in their own lands. In Australia, New Zealand, Africa, and the Americas, Christianity consistently justified and abetted colonialists and conquistadors.

What caused the loss of the "theistic framework". Do you think mission schools and forced assimilation of children into white Christian households had anything to do with it?

cranky47's picture
@Algebe

@Algebe

Agreed. I'd like to add A bit:

That the people who administer the laws have traditionally been believers, not secularists. The stolen generations comes to mind; children removed by (statistically) Christian police, and placed in 'homes' run by christians

It was Christian missionaries who did their utmost to destroy aboriginal society. The 'stolen generation' GOVERNMENT POLICY was administered at Christian missions, with the help of christian police and courts. .

I won't even start on the work of missionaries in nineteenth century china. Or tehOpium wars,

In the mid-late nineteenth century, England had the greatest empire the world has ever known. It was built and maintained by good christian Englishmen, at all levels , up o to Queen Victoria herself. White Victorian society is remembered for it'\s hypocrisy; the hypocrisy of good, god fearing christian Victorians.

One more, and I'll stop : the antebellum Southern United States : Slavery was carried out by good Christians who even allowed proselytising of their slaves . ( made them easier to control) These good christian people justified slavery by referring to the old testament and misquoting and misunderstanding the passage about 'The children of Ham" .

Christians and other other believers remain expert at cherry picking 'divine texts' to justify just about anything .

Yar ,I'm a tad embarrassed to learn the drongo is an Aussie . It's been some years since I have met a person as quite egregiously ignorant. THAT was at a party, and I threatened to hit a young bloke: I think I mentioned this before:

I was by myself at a party. Young bloke slithers over and asks "Have you heard the News?" To which I replied; 'I'm not sure, but if the answer is Jesus, I'm going to punch you in the face" . He slithered way, not realising I was bluffing. In retrospect, I became ashamed of myself. But damn, it sure felt good at the time. MY failing, I need to be more tolerant of fools. Haven't managed it so far. Better to say nothing. Haven't quite managed that yet either.

Nyarlathotep's picture
Lion IRC - The affect of this

Lion IRC - The affect of this change has lead to (or correlated with) terrible social pathologies in their community.

Other posters have already laid out in detail how ludicrous what you've suggested is. I'll just add that correlation don't mean shit.

Or to turn it back to religion: the flying spaghetti monster people (jokingly) claim that the decline of piracy is the cause of global warming by pointing out they are correlated. Surely you wouldn't accept that, but you swallowed that non-sense about the Aborigines hook, line and sinker. Why do you think that happened?

Lion IRC's picture
If you think "correlation don

If you think "correlation don't mean shit" then what's the significance of statistics about religiosity?

Nyarlathotep's picture
Lion IRC - If you think

Lion IRC - If you think "correlation don't mean shit" then what's the significance of statistics about religiosity?

I have no idea what you are talking about.

Correlations don't mean shit, because almost everything is correlated. Like the f̶u̶n̶n̶y̶ silly piracy and global warming example I gave above.

Algebe's picture
@Lion IRC: If you think

@Lion IRC: If you think "correlation don't mean shit" then what's the significance of statistics about religiosity?

Correlation is meaningless without evidence of causality.

I could say that 99% of mass murderers, drunk drivers, drug addicts, suicides, and COVID-19 victims have eaten potatoes. Is that significant? I don't think so. There's no evidence of causality. So that correlation is worthless.

I could also say that countries where Catholicism is dominant tend to be politically unstable and economically backward. That is a significant correlation because I can point to numerous examples, including most Latin American countries, as well as 20th century Spain, Portugal, and Italy. We can also look for causality, such as a strong religious influence in education at the expense of science and engineering, and the absorption of financial resources from individuals and governments. The Catholic church has also helped to hold back social and economic progress by allying itself with oppressive monsters like Mussolini, Franco, Pinochet, and Somoza. So we have correlation and causality.

Statistics about religiosity correlate negatively with indicators human progress, such as education level and literacy. The causality here works both ways. People who are more educated see through religion, so when education rises religion declines. Or religion holds back education by injecting doctrinal and creationist nonsense into curricula at the expense of science, etc., so when religion is strong, education suffers.

Lion IRC's picture
How can you say "statistics

@Algebe @nyarlathotep
How can you say "statistics about religiosity correlate negatively/positively with [suspected link]"?
...if correlation doesn't mean shit.

Algebe's picture
@Lion IRC:

@Lion IRC:
Right at the start of my post, I said "Correlation is meaningless without evidence of causality."

Do you need me to explain any of those words to you in simpler language?

Tin-Man's picture
Re: Lyin' Ass and his comment

Re: Lyin' Ass and his comment about the Aborigines

Holy fuck-a-doodle-doo!... *look of disbelief*... Seriously???... Hell, I'm not even Australian, but I do know enough about it's history to know how badly the Aborigines were treated over the course of the country's developement. Sadly, not much different than how the Native Americans were treated as colonists started spreading across the U.S. The shit ain't rocket science. But now this candy-ass trolling puss sac decides the reason for all their problems is ATHEISM??? I swear, it would be hilarious if it were not so mind-numbingly pathetic.

Well, I don't know about the rest of you folks, but that settles it for me. As far as I am concerned, Lion is a toxic-minded psychologically warped individual whose only reason for being here is to intentionally make outrageous remarks for the purpose of "pushing buttons" and inciting outrage. He has been riding the edge of his little charade thus far, but the little pussycat fucked up and tipped his hand fully with the Aborigine post.

I've been on here quite awhile now. And like all the other regulars here I've seen all manner of trolls, sock puppets, and other such miscreants pass through this site. Fortunately, most of them are so obvious and so childishly ridiculous that they are easily dismissed, and they cause no real harm. No big deal.

But then you have those like Lion, and Jo, and JoC, and Joy, and Breezy, and others like them. From all appearances, they seem well-educated and have fairly good communication skills. In other words, they display a degree of above-average intelligence. Yet, instead of using that intelligence for productive and beneficial purposes, they choose to visit random chat sites and spread a bunch of falsehoods disguised as facts and intentionally play their amateur little mind-games in an effort to disrupt and cause dissent.... Why?

What is their motivation? What do they gain by conducting such flagrantly ignorant activities? Because, honestly, I somehow doubt most of them are truly the theists they claim to be. Would not even surprise me if these same folks trolled religious sites posing as atheists or some other opposing religious member. Regardless, it is difficult for me to comprehend that type of mindset. It is almost sad and pathetic in a way... *shaking head sadly*...

AccretedMinutiae's picture
Lion IRC: "If atheism

Lion IRC: "If atheism correlated - causally or otherwise- with lifestyle wellness/happiness/wisdom indices (emotional IQ) then we should expect to see domestic/gender violence, substance abuse, self-harm and suicide, mental illness etc. in decline as atheism increases."

You have no basis upon which to state this. Especially given the still relatively small percentage of humanity that it openly/purposefully atheist. And this demonstrates your terrible lack of caring for the facts (or even possibilities) within the situation.

I don't pretend to know the facts of the situation (I leave that to you), but what if an increase in non-religious outlook actually causes some of those who are stuck in their religiously-minded worldviews to contemplate suicide at a higher rate per capita, due to the fact that they have a hard time coming to grips with the ideas that they have been believing baseless garbage for their entire life, or they simply can't cope with people questioning their precious beliefs and feel overwhelmingly threatened? In that scenario, because there are far more theists than atheists, the suicide rate would actually increase as a tendency toward non-religious outlook increased. And whose "fault" would that be? The atheists asking the hard-hitting, tough questions? The theists who indoctrinated these people in the first place? How about if the majority of atheist suicides occur because of ongoing religious persecution, distancing and ostracization? Again - I am NOT pretending to know that these things are the case - my main point is simply that there are far more variables at play, and unintended consequences to investigate, before you can simply say that as atheism increases we should see a decrease in "bad stuff" if people being atheist is "better."

Lion IRC's picture
@AccretedMinutiae

@AccretedMinutiae
Nyarlathotep has already unilaterally decreed that any correlation between the growth of atheism (in younger demographics) and the growth of - existential angst, mental illness, hedonism, substance abuse, gender based violence, suicide and self harm, is totally irrelevant and therefore meaningless.

So, when it comes to the consequences of living like there's no tomorrow, let's just take Richard Dawkins at his word.
https://i.dailymail.co.uk/i/pix/2009/01/06/article-1106924-02F6196700000...

Sheldon's picture
Oh ffs, Lion IRC is now

Oh ffs, Lion IRC is now quoting the Daily Heil.

https://youtu.be/5eBT6OSr1TI

A new low....

Sheldon's picture
@Lion IRC

@Lion IRC

This reminds of that facile book by Peter Hitchens, claiming all the ills that occurred in the former Soviet Union were attributable to atheism, almost as if he''d failed to notice that totalitarian regimes are generally awful to live under and that goes for theocracies as well.

"Before he began his recent travels, it seemed to Phil Zuckerman as if humans all over the globe were “getting religion”—praising deities, performing holy rites, and soberly defending the world from sin. But most residents of Denmark and Sweden, he found, don’t worship any god at all, don’t pray, and don’t give much credence to religious dogma of any kind. Instead of being bastions of sin and corruption, however, as the Christian Right has suggested a godless society would be, these countries are filled with residents who score at the very top of the “happiness index” and enjoy their healthy societies, which boast some of the lowest rates of violent crime in the world (along with some of the lowest levels of corruption), excellent educational systems, strong economies, well-supported arts, free health care, egalitarian social policies,"

Phil Zuckerman

https://www.amazon.co.uk/dp/B0029VCUVK/ref=dp-kindle-redirect?_encoding=...

Whitefire13's picture
That article links it to

That article links it to technology. Hedonism isn’t even mentioned, and I would hold belief on blaming technology.

In my experience it’s never one thing - 100 Ways to Die in the West scene with kid playing with hoop and stick pops into mind.

Tin-Man's picture
@Whitefire Re: Stick and hoop

@Whitefire Re: Stick and hoop

Ahem!... It's "A MILLION Ways to Die in the West", thank you very much. Hillarious movie!... lol...

https://youtu.be/IXOsCi_F7w8

Cognostic's picture
I will watch it tonight after

I will watch it tonight after work. In the mean time....
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IJNR2EpS0jw

Sheldon's picture
"100 Ways to Die in the West

"100 Ways to Die in the West "

Awesome film.

When his girlfriend said he should have fought the gunslinger and he said "are you kidding, next to him I'd look like I had Parkinson's" and she replied "what's Parkinson's?". So he says "Oh, it's just another of god's delightful surprises to show how much he loves us."

Fucking hilarious...

Whitefire13's picture
....oh right ;) ... I love

....oh right ;) ... I love how that movie brings to “light”
The idealism of the good-ole-days. Cholera anyone?!?!

Remember 7 years ago the whole 2012 thingy. This guy bought into remote viewers and some preacher selling videos on 2012. He moved himself and his family from the city to Tennessee. This was one of his first videos he posted - chopping firewood. I would fuckin’ laugh OMG. Fuck I’m tearing up and I haven’t even rewatched it yet. Then in later videos he’s scared of
his rural neighbours. Oh god...stop me please...and his wife hates chicken poop. Fuck I can’t type anymore....

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=lyay1-UDfsY

Sad to say he moved back to Florida. Preferring death to “survivalist” lifestyle. Oh god.

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