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Bringing you atheist articles and building active godless communities takes hundreds of hours and resources each month. If you find any joy or stimulation at Atheist Republic, please consider becoming a Supporting Member with a recurring monthly donation of your choosing, between a cup of tea and a good dinner.
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Re: Agnos - "Whatever is true is true, as has been, and will be, and always will be. If something I say is true, it will prove itself, and the same will be proof to those who, if/when they are ready to see for themselves, they will."
To put it another way...
Theists (asking atheists): "Do you want answers?"
Atheists: "We want the proof."
Theists: (see attached pic)...
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**RE: Do you BELIEVE that?
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No, I only "believe" in possibilities based on any/all knowledge that a given possibility is "certainly possible". As such, it is difficult to call it a "belief" because it takes one or more known(s) into account (ie. conscious justification).
**RE: Human existence is impossible without beliefs, they are how we interact with reality. Beliefs however do not have to be unevidenced, though many are, and some of these are useful as well. You remind of reprogramming Jordan, a barking mad poster, who thought we could eradicate religion by abandoning all beliefs. The irony of course is that he really did BELIEVE that.
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It's not a "belief", it is a knowledge (of a possibility). It is the truth of the way of the living contained in:
All knowing is (by way of) indefinitely trying belief, but
not all belief is (by way of) indefinitely trying to know all.
Truth by Way of Negation<>Truth of the Way of the Living
Tried, Tested and *Falsified*<>(tends towards)Truth of the Way of the Living
See the inversion principle <> there? It is infallible (as any all-knowing god must certainly be).
It reduces the fallibility to the being themselves: thus, know thy self holds again. If god is all-knowing, that includes the ignorance(s) we all unknowingly have.
As we know more of them (our own ignorance(s)) and knowingly know them, any all-knowing god would then know we know of them, and inference can happen accordingly (if so existing).
Can it be falsified that knowledge can be pursued by way of indefinitely trying any/all belief for any/all belief-based ignorance(s)?
Can it be falsified that "belief"-in-and-of-itself would be required to confuse so-called evil with/as good? satan with god?
Can it be falsified that "knowledge"-in-and-of-itself would be required to reconcile so-called evil with/as good?
Can it be falsified that any all-knowing god would know *not* to eat from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil in the first place?
Which all challenges the ABSURD:
"All knowing is belief, but not all belief is knowing."
as the biggest blunder of philosophy, period. In reality:
All BELIEF is IGNORANCE, but not all ignorance is belief. Wherein:
3- (any/all *to*)
2- (I) KNOW - Tree of Life
1- I (am)
5- (I) BELIEVE - Tree of Knowledge of Good and Evil
4- (*not*)
1-2-3-4-5 = knowledge
1-5-4-3-2 = ignorance
and the Primordial Antithetical Dichotomous Dipole is KNOWLEDGE/of/IGNORANCE
Come on, Sheldon. You must certainly be able to falsify, no? I already know the answer: you can not, thus you attack personally which is ignorance, and just as ignorant as anyone else who does instead of focusing on the fact that hundreds of millions are dead due to certainly IGNORANT "beliefs".
**RE: If I stopped believing I needed food, or water what might the result be I wonder?
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You can't "believe" to not know something as fundamental as this, unless you are insane.
**RE: Your posts are still overly verbose word salad I'm afraid. Based on strong beliefs you clearly hold as well, ironically.
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I made a picture for the idiots who can not read and blame others for their inability to read.
https://ibb.co/090gbJ2
No "beliefs" instead of belief in possibility, like in world peace (known possibility) but you, as with the others who attack me personally, are just as useless and insufferably ignorant as the "believing" theists who FOCUS on MEN rather than IDEAS. Look:
**RE: @A Gnostic Agnostic: YOU KNOW YOU HAVE LOST YOUR MIND WHEN YOU RESPOND TO ABSOLUTELY INSANE POSTS.
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Look at how retarded this ape is: and he will project his own stupidity onto others and try having them suffer his own ignorance. This is exactly what any/all people do who are ignorant of themselves: blame others for it!
Nobody has been able to falsify anything - they don't even seem to have the temperance to do it, less attack and slander and whine and squeal like pigs.
Goats climb mountains (ie. try to falsify).
Sheep tend to flock (ie. repeat old nonsense)
Pigs whine and squeal (ie. ad hominem)
Not a single goat here so far. Not one. Very sad and boring.
I don't believe you, we know natural phenomena are possible, and we know the universe exists, but we don't know that anything supernatural, or any deity is even possible, despite your endless helpings of vapid word salad.
Like believing in a deity from an unevidenced archaic superstition, and for which you cannot demonstrate a shred of objective evidence, and which therefore is entirely devolved from reality.
Irony overload, your posts are complete unadulterated drivel nonetheless.
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Ahhh so you're not Jordan... could have fooled me!
It must have the unprecedented pile of unsubstantiated bollocks you post that couldn't pass a few atheists, let alone peer review.
Theists claim that the highest suicide rate is committed by atheists!
@Ricardo: It may be true. From my personal perspective, I am not going to rot away in a nursing home. Death from old age in America is a fucking horror. I have my death planned out and euthanasia is my friend. I plan on ending my own life when the quality of life sinks below my tolerance level. We put our dogs and cats out of their misery but force our grandmothers and grandfathers to endure horrible deaths. I have worked in geriatrics and I will not die a lingering rotting death. Atheists may not have the same fear of death experienced by their Christian counterparts.
BUT LETS LOOK AT SOME RESEARCH" I found an article......
"Depression is a serious problem with in the greater atheist community and far too often, that depression has led to suicide"
KEEP IN MIND, THE TRANSGENDER AND TRANSSEXUAL COMMUNITIES MAKE UP PART OF THE ATHEIST COMMUNITY. THIS MAY INFLATE SUICIDE STATISTICS FOR ATHIESTS.
Durkheim's theory of Suicide asserts that it occurs more often when people experience a state of anomi. "Lack of Social Boundaries, norms, social Mores."
Assuming this is true. The average atheist is well educated. They do not buy into the myths of the common people. They may spend more time questioning life's little rules, cultural norms, values. etc... This leads directly to Anomi.
IS THAT A BAD THING? I, FOR EXAMPLE, REGARD MY OWN DEATH AS MY OWN CHOICE. I SEE IT AS A POSITIVE. WHEN IT IS TIME TO GO, I WILL GO GLADLY AND PEACEFULLY. NO ONE NEEDS TO BE DEPRESSED TO ENGAGE IN SUICIDE.
"Anomic suicide is an extreme response by a person who experiences anomie, a sense of disconnection from society. (Not sharing societies values.)
" Altruistic suicide is often a result of excessive regulation of individuals by social forces such that a person may be moved to kill themselves for the benefit of a cause or for society at large." (I will do it for my own benefit.)
"Egoistic suicide is a profound response executed by people who feel totally detached from society." "Elderly people who experience the death of friends and family." "Loss of work and value." They lose their social role and feel alienated.
"Fatalistic suicide occurs under conditions of extreme social regulation resulting in oppressive conditions and a denial of the self and of agency."
https://www.thoughtco.com/study-of-suicide-by-emile-durkheim-3026758
Back to the original article----
"There are of course many valid reasons why atheists are sometimes more prone to suicide than religious believers. Interestingly enough, one of those reasons is religious believers themselves." I like this. We are a minority, rejected by the religious. Things are changing. We have the internet now.
"Imagine you are a young person who has just come to the realization that God is imaginary. You have just realized that everything your religious tradition and your parents have taught you is make-believe. Your whole world has just come undone and for the first time in your life, you now have to wrestle with the great existential questions of life on your own and without any support networks. What does it mean to live a meaningful life without a supernatural deity? Without an afterlife to live for, what is the purpose of life? "
"Some atheists questioned whether the statistics actually showed that a problem exists at all. For the record, it does."
This article assumes suicide and depression are linked. While that may be true in the general population, it may be a rational choice among atheists. Someone is behind the euthanasia movement. I think it is horrible that a despondent person going through an emotional crisis commits suicide. I would fully support a rational choice to end one's own life when life becomes no longer worth living. (This, of course would be case by case.) Suicide does not need to be horrible, sad, or the result of depression. It can be a simple "Thank you for all the fish!"
https://www.huffpost.com/entry/atheism-has-a-suicide-problem_b_5a2a902ee...
I like you cognostic want to take control of my own welfare, like you said, once basic comfort levels fall below a certain level, (and I am still aware of it) with no real hope for much improvement, I would like to be in control of my own situation. A well controlled comfortable death sounds preferable to a years long decline where I am bed/wheelchair ridden, in constant pain of which there is no other escape.
I don't have kids and do not plan to have kids. Even if I did. I would not want to burden them like that. Fortunately for me, so far, barring a major change in fortune for me, this is still many decades away for me. And who knows what future technologies will bring.
@Logic: RE: "I like you cognostic"
*** Blushing*** "Tin man is going to be Jealous. Old Man is just going to try and get you to pull his finger more often."
"Thanks Logic, I like you too."
I, like you, have no kids. I am single and have no plans to have children. Marriage might be an option as two people on retired incomes can survive better than one. But.... "Who knows what the future will bring."
@Cognostic
I did miss an important comma there didn't I? Hah. Let 'em be jealous!
If somehow due to unfortunate circumstance I ended up single, I probably would not bother to marry again. I would just work on having solid lasting friendships into my old age, and when I got to old and infirm to maintain those friendships then yeah, same plan we been talking about, no need to drag it out.
100% agreement. And then leave your money to kids, relatives, help someone through school, just do something nice with whatever you have left. (Or frigging spend it all on a Las Vegas Weekend.) It's yours and not the nursing home's or the doctor's. The number one cause of bankruptcy in the US is 'medical bills." People throw away their life savings just to live another year or two. IMO - that's just crazy. Live your life now and when it is time to go, exit gracefully, thankfully for the experience, and with a smile on your face.
Between 5 and 10% of LGBT youth, depending on age and sex groups, have attempted suicide, a rate 1.5-3 times higher than heterosexual youth.
From American Federation for Suicide Prevention. https://afsp.org/about-suicide/suicide-statistics/
In 2017, men died by suicide 3.54x more often than women.
White males accounted for 69.67% of suicide deaths in 2017.
The rate of suicide is highest in middle-age white men in particular.
So, what are you going to do about it?
David Killens: Genius! Your statistics are fantastic. Who are the atheists? Their demographics are the same as those for those at risk for the higher suicide rates. Educated middle aged white men, transgenders, homosexuals etc... JUNE 1, 2016, PEW RESEARCH (Just saying the suicide rates of America and what constitutes the Atheist population in America seem to line up quite nicely. I am not asserting atheists are suicidal. I am asserting depressed people or highly intelligent people that question the world around them and thus experience a sense of Anome, are more likely to find a home in atheism (The rejection of god claims). Anyway, I thought the statistics were quite interesting. What are "we" doing about it? "We" are providing support for atheists world wide so they have a place in this world where they feel they belong. " I think that's fair. The Internet is the Town Square for Atheists. You are not alone!
*68% are men, and the median age of atheist adults in the U.S. is 34
*Atheists also are more likely to be white (78% are Caucasian vs. 66% for the general public) and highly educated: About four-in-ten atheists (43%) have a college degree, compared with 27% of the general public.
*About two-thirds of atheists (69%) identify as Democrats. Atheists overwhelmingly favor same-sex marriage (92%) and legal abortion (87%). (THIS DEMOGRAPHIC, THOUGH NOT CLEARLY STATED, CERTAINLY INCLUDES MANY IN THE LGBT COMMUNITY imo.)
https://www.pewresearch.org/fact-tank/2016/06/01/10-facts-about-atheists/
Another bowl of vapid sententious word salad.
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How did we get onto suicide?
Anyway I have as you may know had my life turned inside out of late. I'm going through a divorce at 54, and it's an adjustment to put it mildly. Money hasn't been an issue for a while, but now that might change. I'm just trying to deal with each issue as they come along. If I can't do anything about an issue, I try to put it out of my mind, not always easy.
I'm not contemplating suicide thank fuck, but there has been some raw emotional pain that's been tough, but I try to keep some perspective, others are far worse off than me, a cliche but true nonetheless.
I'll worry about euthenizing myself if and when there is no life of any substance left, and I'll never allow myself to be locked into an old people's home, I've seen some, and it's not for me.
Hopefully that's a long way off....its my life and if the time comes that I want to end it then it's my choice. Though I'm mindful of those who care about me, and want to avoid causing them unnecessary suffering.
The superstitous myth that I'd survive my oen physical death in any meaningful way, and for all eternity is too depressing to contemplate. Oblivion is easy, it didn't cause me any problems before I was born after all...
@Sheldon: You would be turned down if you tried to euthanize yourself. You have to make the choice before you have any major stress. It can not be a response to depression or injury.
The US state of Oregon legalized physician-assisted suicide in 1998.
patient must be resident in Oregon
patient must be aged over 18
patient must make 2 oral and 1 written request for euthanasia
there must be at least 15 days between the first and the last request
patient must be terminally ill with a life expectancy of less than 6 months
this prognosis must be confirmed by a second consultant physician
both doctors must confirm that the patient is capable of making this decision
both doctors must confirm that the patient does not have medical condition that impairs their judgement
patient must self-administer the lethal medication
YOU MY FRIEND ARE NOT EVEN CLOSE. Nor am I, at this point in time. But I fully disagree with the "6 months to live BS."
Well at least they have some kind of system for it; instead of just telling you it's against god's will.
It seems a hell of a lot better than what they have where I live, which is nothing.
@Nyarlathotep: Agreed/ It's a start. Until the medical industry figures out how to turn a profit from it, it will not catch on. Not unless people begin insisting.
We treat our pets better than we treat each other. Helping a pet die is seen as a selfless gift to them. Why do we treat the human animal differently? In a word - religion.
Edited a typo.
@CyberLN: Ding Ding!!! We have a winner!!!
@ Cog
We are just in the throes of passing similar legislation here in Western Australia. Realising they have lost the vote, the legislation WILL become law, the fundies are now engaged in launching amendments to the Act to make it as unworkable as possible...for instance they want a clause that forbids Doctors from discussing euthanesia (VED) unless the patient (yes they must be terminally ill and in pain) specifically brings it up, they are further trying to limit the options medical personnel can offer for a painless exit.
Fuckers.
I have my exit strategies planned depending on circumstance.
I will not be dictated to by people who have no interest in my well being or my welfare unless it coincides with their narrow beliefs and lifestyle. If push comes to shove I can see a scenario where a few of them may join me.....
It would be much easier if the law reflected the population's wishes.
@Old man shouts ...
"for instance they want a clause that forbids Doctors from discussing euthanesia (VED) unless the patient (yes they must be terminally ill and in pain) specifically brings it up,"
I few weeks ago I viewed an interview from Rob Van Dam, a professional wrestler. He was discussing his mother's situation, where she was suffering, and in a group meeting stood up and suggested marijuana. The doctor at the podium thanks Rob profusely, because he was under strict legal restrictions to never suggest pot, but if the patient mentioned pot, that legally allowed the doctor to openly discuss the benefits and drawbacks in pot for therapy. The end result was the Rob's mother got pot therapy, and her condition is much improved.
I don't get it, the whole thing feels insane to me. People will commit suicide with or without a doctors help. Yes, we don't want to make it easy where if someone has one bad day they get a pill that ends it with a prescription. But at the same time, the immutable fact is still there, if someone wants to commit suicide, it is going to be really hard to stop them.
What is worse most people try to do it in horrible ways when they are out of options. Trying to OD on pills (a horrible non-effective way to die!) a gun (also a horrible and all too often non-effective way to die!) and it leaves the mess of figuring out if the person really committed suicide or if it was murder staged to look like suicide or if it was even an accident. I knew someone that commited suicide and the body was not discovered until the land lord came to evict due to non payment of rent.
If they allowed people to openly talk to doctors and help about suicide it would be much much better. For one a professional can become aware of the situation and perhaps help in ways that do not involve suicide, and if the person cannot be helped and is still certain they can help set the affairs in order. Make sure wills get done. People can say their goodbyes, police can be notified (so they know it's not possibly a murder staged to look like suicide or under any duress etc) and a person can die a dignified death, and it can be done far enough in advance to help ensure the person is making the decision in a calm rational way.
Plus it will help stop other problems of suicide, I am friends with an officer, and he has dealt with, 3 times now, in a relatively short career, a person trying to commit suicide via "death by cop."
@cognostic
I'm not even sure what the law demands in the UK. As you say and I absolutely agree, depression should not be a legal justification for euthanasia. Terminally ill with little to no quality of life and no realistic chance of recovery.
I also agree I've (hopefully) got a couple of decades or so before I need concern myself with my demise.
Shit happens, and I'll have to deal with it, and move on. The thing about depression is it is treatable, whether it's a temporary reaction to traumatic events, or a lifelong battle, there's a great deal we can do to fight it.
Starting with Wales winning their world cup QF game against France on Sunday....first I am going out for a birthday meal tonight with family and friends.
@Sheldon! Have a great time.
Cognostic "@Sheldon! Have a great time."
Thank you, it started badly, as the shite weather here tripped the electricity and locked me out of my garage, the trip switch firmly locked in the garage, doh" I really must get that sorted, so after Osteopathic treatment on my ck, I had to take the inside garage door off its hinges then wrestle the fucker back on in the pissing rain. Then charge to town to get a present for my sister and her husband's anniversary. rushed home to iron my clobber for tonight, and now finally having a drink and relaxing before going out later....
I should write a blog or something.... PMLMAO...
@Sheldon: Yea, write a blog or star in your own Charlie Chapman Movie. I can see the whole event unfolding in that old flickering tape-reel fashion of the silent movie. Perhaps a few screen shots of comments between the action.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FN2SKWSOdGM
@Old man shouts ...: It would be much easier if the law reflected the population's wishes.
The population is still living in the Dark Ages. They are scared shirtless of things that go bump in the night and children's campfire stories. I am in charge of my body and the things I do. The legal system holds me responsible right up to the point I no longer wish to exist and then they do a flip flop and tell me I am not the one in control/ BULLISHT. I've got years to go before I die and years to go before I die, but when it is time.. the plans have been laid. I figure I am good for another 10 to 20 years. I am very healthy.
@cognostic
Your post made me think of this...
The woods are lovely, dark and deep,
But I have promises to keep,
And miles to go before I sleep,
And miles to go before I sleep.
Robert Frost
@Sheldon: Yea, I sorta plagiarized ole Robert's suicide poem.
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