Atheistic Morals Baseless?

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jay-h's picture
Morality exists outside of

Morality exists outside of religion and outside of government.

Religion often took on the mantle of morality in part because it was the only coherent social structure at the time. Up to a point, that was not a bad thing, rules about violence, theft, rape, etc were necessary somehow. In a time of no birth control and no medical treatment, even rules about abstinence and marriage served to reduce disease and unsupported children.*

Handing morality to the government is a case of new boss, same as the old boss. In the 'secular' west, the governments have become obsessed with the details of our lives, and whether our attitudes align with the current socially prescribed narrative. Religion enforced morality with threats of damnation, government does so with threats of violence.

Logic is not fully an answer either. Sam Harris looks to logic, and certainly it can inform our judgement but complexities of human relations simply do not fit with logic. The various trolley car scenarious show that our minds do not fully buy into the Vulcan ideal (could you intentionally cause the death of one innocent person to save a car-load of others? Is that moral?). How much should freedom be abridged for the 'overall good' (and how do you measure the 'overal good'? -- maybe loss of that much freedom is an 'overall bad'. At what point does abortion become infanticide? At what point does it acquire the legal rights guaranteed to every person (regardless of age or health)?

In a way, morality evolved like the spam filter in your email. You get a spam, and tweak your rules to block future similar messages. After a while you have lots of 'rules' but there is no logical consistency to them, indeed some will directly contradict one another. And some will delete legitimate messages. Evolution does not 'care' about those messy details. If it works on a statistically significant level, it will be selected.

*This is somewhat a problem today. Statistically, corrected for age, background, income and education, married people with children do far better financially than those who have children on their own or with casual partners. This is a major problem in some of our cities, where social workers are cautiously non-judgemental--they discourage teen pregnancy, which is not the biggest issue, and are silent on everything else. Yet the children of intact parents are far less likely to get into drugs, violence and crime.

mykcob4's picture
@unknown

@unknown
1st why are you unknown....are you embarrassed?
2nd for the umpteenth time, morals don't come from religion or a god. Never did! They come from society and always have. Religions have tried to hi-jack morals and control them for their own political purposes and have always done so.
I am SOOOOOO damn tired of non-atheist telling ME that I don't have morals because I am not a christian. What a bunch of horseshit!
If we were to gauge "morality" of the actions done in the name of god, we could easily see that religion is antimoral as it condones hate, murder, rape, slavery, prejudice, incest, pollution, greed, genocide and a whole host of other atrocities! More people have been violated in one way or another in the name of JESUS than for any other reason. Slavery in the USA was and is based on a christian belief that the colored races are inferior to whites. "Manifets Destiny" is a christian ideal that justified genocide.
All religions are immoral but christianity is by far the worst. Right now ISIS is trying to start a holy war, and western christian also want to start a holy war all in the name of both their gods, which oddly enough is the exact same god.
I profess that you cannot be really MORAL unless you are an Atheist! Because Atheists are not beholden to any belief that terrorizes another human being. Having a god gives you an excuse to commit crimes against humanity and therefore they do so!
So fuck religion. If you belief in a god PROVE that there is one, AND prove that that god dictates morality. Because by example christians prove everyday that they have no morals only agendas!

BAACKJD's picture
And you don't even have to

And you don't even have to prove the existence of God for atheists to really take a hard look at your perspective. Just offer some reasonable evidence. I have yet to see that. There is a reason that every time atheist intellectuals and theologians debate, the theologians getting their asses handed to them.

smoran's picture
Not quite.

Not quite.
I'm an Atheist, And I do have morals.
My morals are based on what I have learned during my lifetime.
For me, everything that hurts another being without a just cause (which is always debatable).
It wasn't always like that, As I grew, my thought of what is moral and what not were changing, and still are.

Those Morals are an outcome of many things: Where I was raised, How I was raised, What have I experienced in life and many more factors.

I Can't find any harm being made by two males deciding to marry each other.
It harms only the fools who find it harmful.

CyberLN's picture
We have visited this debate

We have visited this debate about morality numerous times in this forum. Theists continue to claim 'their' morality is objective and therefore superior.

What has not been done to my knowledge in any of these discussions, is for one of these claimants to provision data that shows, definitively, this supposed superiority. So far as I can tell, this superiority is an assumption not a fact. Studies may actually indicate that the subjective (golden rule type) morality has better results...happier, healthier, saner, more cooperative, etc peeps.

Now wouldn't that be a hoot!?

Valiya's picture
Hi CyberLN

Hi CyberLN

You said: “What has not been done to my knowledge in any of these discussions, is for one of these claimants to provision data that shows, definitively, this supposed superiority.”

Since you have asked for proof, here you go

In a huffington post survey on charitable donations, Muslims led the list with the most charity donations given. Christians and Jews followed. Atheists were at the least charitable. Here is the link

http://www.huffingtonpost.co.uk/2013/07/21/muslims-give-most_n_3630830.html

According to another worldwide study conducted by no less an agency than American Socialogical Review, Muslims have least sex outside marriage. Here is the link

http://www.livescience.com/24093-muslims-have-least-sex-outside-marriage...

Having said that… let me add that let me say that it’s very difficult arrive at any conclusions based on these figures… because from a religious point of view, morality is entirely a matter of the heart. A person could be having a Christian or a Muslim name, but he would actually be a disbeliever at heart.

How would a person who believes that God is watching him and that He would make him account for his sins, ever dare to commit a grievous sin? When a person does a sin without any compunction, it means that he doesn’t really believe… or that their belief has some gross undoing.

You said: Studies may actually indicate that the subjective (golden rule type) morality has better results...happier, healthier, saner, more cooperative, etc peeps

Can you show me what those studies are.

CyberLN's picture
I said studies MAY show that.

I said studies MAY show that...By that I am saying I don't know if they do or dont. No one has produced, in this forum, any studies showing the overall results that indicates one way or the other. I'd still like to see one. Until I see that, any conjecture is just that, conjecture.

The two you sited are incredible narrow, both in scope and sample size.

Also, IMO, and I'm confident I'm not alone, there is absolutely nothing immoral about consensual, safe sex outside of marriage. The only exception I can think of is where there is a contract between people prohibiting it.

Valiya's picture
"there is absolutely nothing

"there is absolutely nothing immoral about consensual, safe sex outside of marriage. The only exception I can think of is where there is a contract between people prohibiting it."

That's the whole crux of this debate... what are the standards on what you decide what is moral and immoral?

CyberLN's picture
No different source than you

No different source than you have. The only difference I can see is that I take ownership and you don't.

chimp3's picture
Of course sex outside of

Of course sex outside of marriage is immoral! Unless you are having sex with your concubine.

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