Atheists becoming Theists and vice versa

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Bob Lawson's picture
@David Killens

@David Killens

"Yes, we can postulate that many atheists also accept many scientific theories. We can state "many", but not "all". And if just one genuine atheist does not accept evolution, then it can never be stated that atheists accept evolution."

Atheists generally accept most standard scientific propositions, that's a given, but if anyone is conducting an argument against an atheist, then that individual needs to confirm all the propositions that impact that argument and not take anything for granted.

"The thing is Bob, accepting a generalized assumption can lead us down the road of muddy thinking that many theists desire to lead us down. In a debate, every proposition must be fully valid to support the next proposition that is a result of the first."

I fully accept this statement, but I still think it may be construed as a bit of bad faith if we don't acknowledge that certain assumptions can be surmised about most atheists; but if someone wants to delve into an argument with any given atheist then everything discussed needs clarification.

David Killens's picture
@Bob L

@Bob L

"I fully accept this statement, but I still think it may be construed as a bit of bad faith if we don't acknowledge that certain assumptions can be surmised about most atheists; but if someone wants to delve into an argument with any given atheist then everything discussed needs clarification."

Atheists are to the left.

Do you see where this statement is an incorrect assumption because generalizations were accepted?

Ramo Mpq's picture
@David

@David

“Atheists are to the left”

I assume you’re speaking politically here. If so, then I’d would say I agree with this statement as a general statement about atheist that could be true as they tend to be more aligned with the left politically than the right. That does not mean 100% of atheists are to the left. As a general statement that would be accurate for the most pet but, if I were talking 1 on 1 with an atheist I would not assume they were left, I’d ask first. There’s a difference between general statements and individual ones

David Killens's picture
Wow, just wow.

Wow, just wow.

Reposted .......

"No thanks as that will be taking us off topic."

The irony overload is at 11

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4KWI5Igr3Rs

SecularSonOfABiscuitEater's picture
@SFT

@SFT

" (please correct me if I am wrong) for the most part, everything outside of science is subjective"

That's a claim that you have to be prepared to back. I don't think there's any solid data to back that. To correct you, scientists do not claim to know all, they seek to find the empirical data to explain the natural world and other phenomena. "Dark Matter" for example, can be seen as subjective because it is hypothetical. We can detect it, it cannot (as yet) be fully explained at this time, so we label it with a name like "Dark Matter"

To answer your question, Most widespread religions keep their devotees faith strong by way of fear. Getting into Heaven is a reward, while Hell is punishment. Some Athiests can be at peace with their doubt and some might always feel that feeling of "what if I'm wrong?" Living a life based on punishment and reward can be hard to escape when you've been indocrinated as a child. We've seen some people go through that struggle time and time again on this very site.

If there's anything to learn about us Athiests, it's that many of us are unique as fingerprints with respect to our attitudes and beliefs. It would be a mistake on your part to generalize.

Ramo Mpq's picture
@Secular

@Secular

To correct you, scientists do not claim to know all, they seek to find the empirical data to explain the natural world and other phenomena

I never claimed they did so to be honest I am not sure what you are correcting. And I did say “for the most part” meaning not everything.

"Dark Matter" for example, can be seen as subjective because it is hypothetical.

Thank you, I did not know that.

If there's anything to learn about us Athiests, it's that many of us are unique as fingerprints with respect to our attitudes and beliefs. It would be a mistake on your part to generalize

Yes and no. I do not think Atheists are as “unique” on an individual or even a group level as you are indicating. While they are not all 100% the same of course, which can be said about any race or religion. But, for the most part there are there are many overlapping similarities between Atheists, which again, can also be said about any race or religion. While I never generalize about an entire race or group of people, I do know that there are some general statements that would apply to the majority of the group.

arakish's picture
NOT Searching for truth:

NOT Searching for truth: "While I never generalize about an entire race or group of people, I do know that there are some general statements that would apply to the majority of the group."

Which is EXACTLY what you are doing with atheists.

Rent free, boy. Rent free.

rmfr

Sapporo's picture
Generally, with theism,

Generally, with theism, belief in the existence of god/s is considered equitable to loyalty and confidence in the truthfulness of religious dogma.

For me, theism is similar to following a sports team e.g. the New England Patriots, apart from the fact that the object of veneration can never be observed.

arakish's picture
Searching: "For me as a

Searching: "For me as a Muslim, since I believe in God and an objective standard, the simplest explanation would be “he lost his way”.

And what exactly is this objective standard you believe in?

rmfr

arakish's picture
And I repeat:

And I repeat:

“Searching: "For me as a Muslim, since I believe in God and an objective standard, the simplest explanation would be “he lost his way”.

And what exactly is this objective standard you believe in?

Too much of a coward to state the objective standard you believe in?

And found your new avatar...

rmfr

EDIT: Image removed due to insult to our good buddy Leo.

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Tin-Man's picture
@Arakish Re: SFT's new

@Arakish Re: SFT's new avatar

Hey there, friend. Uh, listen, hate to bother you about this, but I just recently got a call from my ol' buddy Leo who saw you comparing him to our green Hulkster pal. And, uh... well... this is kinda embarrassing, but he wanted me to pass along a message to you. Seems he got a bit upset about that comparison. As Leo put it, "Please tell Arakish that I know I may not be very brave most of the time, but at least I try to be honest about it." Basically, I guess he feels somewhat insulted, because - in his defense - I do know Leo will at least honestly answer any questions people ask him. Anyway, just wanted to pass along that message real quick. (...*uncomfortably rubbing back of neck*... Geez, I hate being the middle-man...)

arakish's picture
@ Tin-Man Re: "Leo"

@ Tin-Man Re: "Leo"

Tell Leo I apologize. And yes, at least Leo is honest. NSFT not so much.

Thanks for the dressing-down.

rmfr

Sky Pilot's picture
Searching for truth,

Searching for truth,

Sometimes people become afraid of dying and they like the promise of eternal life in heaven or paradise so the convert to a religion that appeals to them. Hard-core atheists may not find the idea of eternal life appealing so they reject all gods on that basis. Besides, the gods in the Koran and in the Bible are assholes so who would want to spend eternity around them if they hate them?

arakish's picture
@ NOT Searching for truth

@ NOT Searching for truth

Diotrephes: " Hard-core atheists may not find the idea of eternal life appealing so they reject all gods on that basis."

As I despise the thought of having to exist for eternity. Eventually I would get so damned bored after having already done absolutely everything, said everything possible, crafted absolutely every possible piece of art, ate a supper of the same thing for the trillionth time, I would become like John De Lancie's character in Star Trek and become the most infamous and mischievous imp of the G Continuum. In other words, I would become the new Satan just break the boredom.

Go ahead. Believe in eternity all you want. Just give me an end. A hundred years is plenty for me.

rmfr

Sky Pilot's picture
arakish,

arakish,

"Just give me an end. A hundred years is plenty for me."

Have you ever thought about how many religions throughout the ages have pushed the idea of eternal life if people would only do some rituals, like killing certain animals by a specific means or even doing human sacrifices? And then they try to sell the idea that they have the best moral standards. IMO they are completely insane.

One thing discussing religion over the years has done for me is to convince me that I can never accept people's religious beliefs as my own. IMO they are simply insane people.

Sheldon's picture
You claimed only your

You claimed only your religion offered objective morality. So tell us, is it objectively moral for a 50+ year old man to have sex with a 9 year old child? Or was your prophet being immoral when he groomed and then had a sexual relationship with a nine year old?

Does Islam claim paedophilia is objectively moral, or was it's prophet bring immoral?

How can context change morality if as you claim, that morality is objective.

How can you (SFT) claim to possess objective morality, and not know if raping a 9 year old child is immoral? Or is ot rank hypocrisy and duplicity because you are simply lying about objective morality, and know you can't avoid this being exposed if you answer?

SecularSonOfABiscuitEater's picture
SFT please respond to Sheldon

SFT please respond to Sheldon's question. I am very curious as to your thoughts on this as well.

Sheldon's picture
SecularSonOfABi "SFT please

SecularSonOfABi "SFT please respond to Sheldon's question. I am very curious as to your thoughts on this as well.2

I don't think he will ever give an honest response now, but I will repeat the question every time he weasels his way back on here pretending he wants to have an honest debate.

Same with AJ777, and his claims for religions moral ascendancy, yet he can't say why it is immoral to torture a child.

They come here and try to tell atheists they have no real basis for morality, as if atheists haven't given these complex ideas any thought, and every time they end up doing a *brave Sir Robin" from questions they have no answer to.

In case anyone is unfamiliar with phrase Brave sir Robin, check out the YouTube link below, hilarious.

https://youtu.be/BZwuTo7zKM8

toto974's picture
Ahem... So SFT, you believe

Ahem... So SFT, you believe in God (Allah) AND an objective standard for morality, but since your god has personhood, what he says is as subjective as anyone else.

Ramo Mpq's picture
@Talyn,

@Talyn,

Not sure where you get your info from but, Islam does not ascribe any kind or sorts of "personhood" to Allah.

arakish's picture
@ NOT searching for truth

@ NOT searching for truth

Allah is a human-created make-believe person with deitic powers. Thus, it has personhood. You are just too brainwashed to see actual true truth.

rmfr

Bob Lawson's picture
@SFT

@SFT

"Not sure where you get your info from but, Islam does not ascribe any kind or sorts of "personhood" to Allah."

I am no expert on Islam, but I think I agree with you that "person-hood" would be a very strange way for Muslims to view Allah.

SFT, I may have missed your explanation but could you tell me what you mean by objective? The Collins Dictionary describes it this way: "If someone is objective, they base their opinions on facts rather than on their personal feelings." If you agree with this statement, how could you describe morality as objective? We know that different cultures have some truly opposing views of what is right and wrong.

Ramo Mpq's picture
@Bob

@Bob

SFT, I may have missed your explanation but could you tell me what you mean by objective?

No, you did not as I did not talk about that since this thread was not started to talk about objectivity.

If you agree with this statement, how could you describe morality as objective?.

Yes, I agree with the majority of that statement however, disagree with what is considered “fact” what tools are used to reach those “facts”. If you or anyone else really wants to talk about objectivity and objective morality I would suggest a new thread please in order not to keep veering off topic.

Bob Lawson's picture
@SFT

@SFT

Collins Dictionary: If someone is objective, they base their opinions on facts rather than on their personal feelings.

"Yes, I agree with the majority of that statement however, disagree with what is considered “fact” what tools are used to reach those “facts”."

You have been asserting that Islamic morality is objective, yes? This is why everyone wants to know what you mean by objective, else wise you want to make your claim without defending it. Every object, whether solid, liquid, or gas that exists in the material world can have its substance measured in some way, thus supplying us some factual claims about it. Pretty difficult, however, to measure morality with any device known. Consequently, everything we might say about ephemeral cultural mores must be subjective, don't you think? When it comes to morality, we are passing judgement, not entering stats on a line graph. You can speak philosophically on morality, but you can't speak objectively.

"If you or anyone else really wants to talk about objectivity and objective morality I would suggest a new thread please in order not to keep veering off topic."

Don't make a claim and then tell us this is not the place to defend it.

Tin-Man's picture
@Bob L. Re: To SFT - "Don't

@Bob L. Re: To SFT - "Don't make a claim and then tell us this is not the place to defend it."

Hey, Bob. Thought I might take a moment to let you in on a bit of not-so-secret info regarding our big green Hulkster buddy. Sure, he looks all big, bulky, and clumsy. Hang around long enough, though, and you will see that he has moves that make Neo from "The Matrix" look like a corpse in rigor mortis. Can actually be fairly impressive to watch sometimes. Anyway, figured you might want a heads-up on that.

arakish's picture
Tin-Man: "you will see that

Tin-Man: "you will see that he has moves that make Neo from "The Matrix" look like a corpse in rigor mortis."

Perfect analogy. Absolutely perfect. Many bravados and kudos to you. 10K Agrees.

rmfr

Ramo Mpq's picture
@tinman

@tinman

Hulk with moves like Neo? I accept that compliment lol

Tin-Man's picture
@Hulkster

@Hulkster

Fascinating how you actually see that as a compliment. But, uhhh, ooooo-kaaaay... *shrugging shoulders*...

Ramo Mpq's picture
@ Bob L.

@ Bob L.

Don't make a claim and then tell us this is not the place to defend it.

Bob, instead of replying to your entire post line by line I’ll go ahead and explain it in reply to this one since, I feel this reply would probably answer some (or all) of your questions. First off, as I stated before this thread was not started for any other reason or intention other than to answer the question I asked in my initial post when I stared this thread. So, when people start going off topic and asking questions that do not relate to the original intent of the post, I prefer not to answer and waste my time. If someone truly cares that much about what I or anyone else thinks and they aren’t getting the answer they want I respectfully, have a few suggestion. 1) Start a new thread around that particular topic 2) Researching is a great way to find answers. Objective morality in Islam did not start nor will it end with me so, if people truly want an answer that bad try looking it up and 3) Visit Islamic forums.
Now, you say if I make a claim I need to defend, in the past I might have agreed with you and I actually started out that way when I first joined these forums. However, over time I realized that I was wasting my time, almost all the replies I would get were 1) either off topic 2) getting multiple replies by multiple people each replying not to what I said by what they think I said rather, than what I really said and 3) Profanity laced replies. Don’t get me wrong, I am not playing the victim here nor am I acting out of “hurt feels” but, I no longer want to waste my time having to define and justify every single word I type.
Another thing that stared getting difficult to deal with was how I would almost never, ever get a straight reply from the majority of Atheists on this website. Hence, I coined the term “atheist dance” as they dance around in every shape or form then engage in word play all in an effort to avoid answering any question straightforward.
If you have seen the recent thread titled “Narrow Minded bigots” you will quickly see that this isn’t simply the experience of a Muslim, even an atheist feels the same way. Luckily for me, I have thick skin and don’t let all the hate I get, get to me. I easily block it out and move forward, after all, I am Muslim on an atheist forum, do you think I was expecting a warm or even tolerant welcome? Lol
Although, it’s not all doom and gloom there are about a handful of people here that I actually find quiet enjoyable engaging in dialogue with. Heck, even Oldman can be a (rare) delight when he wants to lol. As for the remaining 98% honestly, as soon as I see their picture I just continue scrolling so when people ask me to answer someone else’s question that I am currently ignoring, I tend to ignore that particular post from them as well. In no way shape or form am I saying I am better than anyone here because I am not but, I have learned to make the time I spend reading and replying enjoyable.
Oh, also I am no longer trying to change anyone’s mind or train of thought (a mistake I made when I first joined) now I am simply looking to better understand people. By asking questions that have less to do with a person’s particular/individual belief but, rather the concept or idea that they are using to reach that belief or view point. So, while I don’t want to be disrespectful and have you think I am avoiding or ignoring your questions, I am simply past trying to defend or justify every single word or statement I say. People can take what I say for what I truly said or they can make up their own conclusion as honestly, I do not care.

Sheldon's picture
How about Mohammed? Now is he

How about Mohammed? Now is he a moral person according to you? How about him have sex with a nine year old child when he was was over 50 years of age, can the rape of a child really ever be objectively moral in your opinion? If it was moral then and not know, then it's clearly not objectively moral is it?

Come on lion, have the decency and integrity to given a candid answer here, what are you hiding? I'm an atheist and have no qualms about giving a definitive answer, that the rape of a nine year old child is a deeply pernicious act, that causes untold physical and emotional suffering, exacerbated if the rapist in his 50's, and therefore can never be a moral act.

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