I can see the issue with a belief system.
I understand it's useless just to memorize one that goes against the reality you're experiencing.
What you want is to grow one from your own experience and put it to the test.
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You also need to make sure the test makes sense, is applicable to the reality you experience, and can be performed and verified by anyone with the wherewithal, or at least can be demonstrated to be effective to some useful degree every time you apply it.
Flatland has no interest in objective evidence, and I must say nor have any of the theists I have ever met or interacted with. It is a very compelling reason to doubt their spiel, and coupled with the fact they can offer no cogent rational argument to support their superstitious beliefs, it is enough for me to disbelieve their god claim, and all their claims for anything supernatural.
Are you saying you disbelieve because of me? Well, that's like an honor?
To whom are you responding?
If it's meant for me, then I can't dumb down my earlier response any more really.
Oh what the Hell, yes I can.
The answer is NO, I do hope this helps you out.
@Flatland: But we all disbelieve because of people like you. How that is honorable is a complete mystery. It's a bit like saying, "I love being ignorant." You are certainly entitled but calling it an honorable position is just ignorance piled upon ignorance.
@ Flatland
"I can see the issue with a belief system."
So can I, but atheism is NOT a belief system. It is the answer to just one question .. is there a god?
"What you want is to grow one from your own experience and put it to the test."
As living beings with brains, we learn every moment. That experience accumulates, and we later compare concepts with our experiences in reality. This is why I have serious doubts concerning the god question. All of my working life I have been in professions where you can not make mistakes. In construction, if you do not see that dump truck backing up, you could get killed. If I drop a tool, someone could die, or an entire system shut down.
So fantasy is just that to me, a product of one's imagination that may not have any bearing on reality. I don;t have to look out for imaginary dump trucks just like I don;t have to worry about a god, neither has any evidence it is real.
I live in a very real world, and god does not exist in that world.
".. but atheism is not a belief system"
like a penis, treat it like a penis. I'm not sure why I triggered you again.
I figure you don't believe in a magical sky fairy, but what about God?
It's the truth David offered that triggered you champ, and you know it.
Atheism
noun
1. disbelief or lack of belief in the existence of God or gods.
Google it, and stop lying, as you must know we can all Google it. Worst of all, each atheists gets to decide what they do and do not believe, so whilst you cannot redefine a dictionary for others, individuals can ascribe a nuanced definition for themselves if, and only if, they have the integrity to say so plainly, so you're lying theistic rhetoric is doubly fucked, as they say in Germany im arsch, and that champ, is as fucked as it gets.
These breakdowns of yours are madness and your own fault really.
I have no idea who you're talking to, or about what? However can I commend you on some of the most comedic grammar and spelling I have ever had the pleasure of reading, is it deliberate? Do you know what a possessive apostrophe is?
If you ever have the integrity to address any of my posts, I will of course reciprocate.
What objective evidence can you demonstrate they are different?
@ Flatland
"I figure you don't believe in a magical sky fairy, but what about God?"
As far as god, I am withholding belief because I have not received enough valid evidence to be convinced it exists in reality. Convince me of your god. Go ahead.
All except your own you mean, but no you really can't, and nothing in any of your posts supports your claim.
There is only one reality, it exists independent of subjective experience, or we couldn't possibly know anything in any objective sense, and one belief would be no more valid than any other, and anything contrary to reality is the very definition of a delusion.
Nonsense. this is what everyone claims when they want to believe something they know has no objective validity.
1. What objective evidence can you demonstrate for any deity, or anything supernatural?
2. What beliefs do you hold, that form no part of your supernatural religious beliefs, that you can demonstrate no objective evidence for?
If the answer to Q1 is nothing, and the answer to Q2 is none, then explain why, in the absence of any objective evidence, we should ignore such obvious and dishonest bias from you inn favour of your god claim?
Still not over the god-people, Sheldon? Please make your own thread about it.
I didn't start this thread mentioning god or anything, simply belief system and that we grow one from our own experience.
@Flatland
I understand your meaning and I agree that some are approaching your hypothetical as being atheist.
If you strip away all other philosophical influences, humans tend to develop a theistic belief system. Much like you see in a human culture 20,000 years ago. In fact, human history documents that. Almost every primitive culture had a God or Gods.
@Flatland
Hallelujah, you actually learned to mention the person whose post you were responding to, well done.
Really, you didn't mention anything in your OP? To be honest that's pretty much how all of your posts read, vapid and devoid of any substantive content.
Atheism is not a belief, or a belief system, sadly anyone unable to grasp this is always going to struggle. Try this, atheism is neither a belief nor a belief system, but an (individual) atheist may hold beliefs and a belief system, that axiomatically encompasses their atheism.
Do let us know when you have grasped the epistemological validity of that, then you might at least progress to some worthy cogent debate. You will never properly understand your own belief as long as you distort it's epistemological context in this way. You will have to abandon dogma, and your a priori doctrinal beliefs, before you can grasp these basics, as painful as this might be for you, but sadly I think it more probable you will cure cancer. I feel your pain sadly, and this is why you come here to an atheist forum, and regurgitate the dogma you were indoctrinated with. Let it go, seriously release the intellect evolution has blessed you with, and look anew and with an open mind, I promise you it's not nearly as scary as you have been led to believe. It is in fact quite liberating, far more than clinging to ancient superstitious dogma, which is making your intellect a slave.
@Sheldon
Flat is a man of few words. I agree, you have to do some guessing to formulate a response.
I took it that he was proposing if you were totally devoid of any "belief system", what philosophy would evolve. That is why I went back to primitive culture when mankind was looking for explanations as to why his child died. Or why his crop washed away. Naturally, he began to manufacturer Gods to explain the unknown. We all would in the absence of knowledge.
Sorry but I don't agree, I think Flatland was presenting the facile, and dishonest idea, lately popularised by religious apologists, that atheism involves a belief or belief system, simply because atheists have beliefs, and belief systems.
All thumbs are fingers, but not all fingers are thumbs. I feel the urge to draw him a Venn diagram.
I am an atheist, I hold beliefs, I even have a worldview or belief system if you prefer, but my atheism is simply the lack or absence of belief in any deity or deities, and I only believe claims for which sufficient objective evidence can be demonstrated. I may be wrong to disbelieve in unevidenced deities, but then by the same rationale I may be wrong in disbelieving in the existence of an unevidenced flat earth, or unicorns and leprechauns, but rather tellingly Flatland is not championing any other unevidenced concepts.
@ Flatland
"I didn't start this thread mentioning god or anything, simply belief system and that we grow one from our own experience."
For myself, it is not "belief" but confidence. Usually it is based on prior experience. I have confidence that my alarm will wake me up at 5:00 AM because it has consistently done it or the last five years. I have confidence my car will start because I know cars and it has also been reliable in operation.
I have confidence that what I see and hear is real because other people near me confirm they experience the same sights and sounds.
I do have a question for you Flatland, please offer your definition of "belief".
It may be your choice of word Flat. I prefer “confidence”. So as an example, I had confidence that my mate would be faithful. It was based on his actions and affection towards me until that “confidence” was abruptly ended. We all have confidence in things everyday... driving to work, taking a shower, eating in a restaurant - we weigh risk, experience, our knowledge (until it’s added to).
Hmmm are the windows open?
It seems to me there is a distinct windiness blowing over the prairies, very Breezy indeed.
That sent a breezy chill down my spine....
@Sheldon
It's hard for me to tell right now. Is Flatland a troll or just ignorant and/or not very bright? Be interested in other possibilities if you can think of any.
Doesn't matter , I'm done with him either way.
@cranky47
Well of course he can be a troll and still be "ignorant and/or not very bright?", indeed it's my opinion those characteristics tend to define most trolls.
I can see why you're done with him, the diminishing returns when a blinkered intransigent theist keeps repeating the same tired vapid rhetoric is unappealing, and negates rational cogent honest debate. Though of course I doubt most theists see it that way.
However here are a couple of quotes from late great Christopher Hitchens...
This is an atheist forum at the end of the day, and anyone peddling their superstitious wares here, better have the constitution to see those ideas challenged in the most robust, rigorous and irreverent fashion. Especially if they start by preaching at the heathens.
Live long.....and prosper.
Oh, he’s a shitdisturber alright...
He thinks it’s funny. And if you notice, his name Flatland describes his posting and online-personality ... “flat”
Why exactly do you think any of us has a belief system?
I have a none belief system as an atheist.
Prove there's a god, or maybe bother someone else.
Belief systems, aka religions often clash with reality.
My beliefs are not part of a 'system'. They are the result of my life experiences. And they are continually subject to testing and re-evaluation.
Religions tend not to re-evaluate as this often leads to the creation of bothersome heresies.
Wrong. The last thing any sensible human being should do, is bother with a belief system. Because at bottom, belief is nothing more than uncritical acceptance of unsupported assertions. What sensible human beings should be doing, is compiling systems of evidentially supported postulates. I emphasise at this juncture that the word "should" in this context, is not intended as a statement of ethical imperative, rather an imperative of practical utility, and as a corollary, a better word needs to be found to express that concept.
Quite simply, evidentially supported postulates do not require "belief", instead, they require understanding. In particular, understanding of the manner in which properly constructed error-free deductions or observational data sets, place constraints upon the likely truth-value of categorical statements. Learn that valuable lesson, and one develops a filter of immense utility value, allowing one to differentiate between fact and fiction. Or, more appositely in this case, between genuine frameworks of knowledge and mere mythologies.
@ Cali
The last thing any sensible human being should do, is bother with a belief system. Because at bottom, belief is nothing more than uncritical acceptance of unsupported assertions. What sensible human beings should be doing, is compiling systems of evidentially supported postulates. I emphasise at this juncture that the word "should" in this context, is not intended as a statement of ethical imperative, rather an imperative of practical utility, and as a corollary, a better word needs to be found to express that concept
Should be tattooed on the forehead of anyone who ever states "I feel it (in my heart, my breast, my bowels)" therefore god.
also on the breasts of those who say "if it was not for (insert deity of choice here) I would not have survived/be here today"
I wonder what other places and phrases would deserve a tattoo?
@Flatland: "And put it to the test?"
When you gonna start?
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