A benevolent, loving god?... Hmph!
Donating = Loving
Bringing you atheist articles and building active godless communities takes hundreds of hours and resources each month. If you find any joy or stimulation at Atheist Republic, please consider becoming a Supporting Member with a recurring monthly donation of your choosing, between a cup of tea and a good dinner.
Log in or create an account to join the discussions on the Atheist Republic forums.
Could you cite the peer reviewed publications that carried your research and validated your conclusions? Or is "my fundamental contention" just a sententious claim for your own subjective opinion? How about my fundamental objection that you're wrong, still stands? what do I win?
I wondered that too.
Well as you can see in my post of Feb 13th below I asked him to evidence his claim days ago, and of course nada. These relentless bald assertions are bread and butter to theists.
Royism ""it’s all part of their natural instincts – it’s not a conscious choice "
Care to evidence that claim? I'm guessing not."
"This is just an anthropomorphic projection of our tendencies onto animals. "
No it's not, there are proper scientific studies that support this, unlike your religious claims.
"it’s all part of their natural instincts – it’s not a conscious choice "
Care to evidence that claim? I'm guessing not.
“Why would a world of eternal, universal, equal benevolence contain petty character flaws like envy or need a carrot/stick approach of reward/punishment?”
"How do you know that a world of “equal benevolence” is some ideal place to be and that ‘envy’ etc are undesirable traits…"
I'm guessing he can read
the quality of being well meaning; kindness.
"to reject it, you need evil in the first place, right? "
No just the concept will do, humans are capable of imagination so the idea I'd need to burn my hand before I could appreciate ice was cold is absurd.
but the context of this debate is “if there is a god, then why does suffering take place…”
No, it is the concept of a perfectly merciful deity that is incompatible with suffering, I explained this to you before with a quote from Epicurus, but of course you ignored it.
“Is God willing to prevent evil, but not able? Then he is not omnipotent.
Is he able, but not willing? Then he is malevolent.
Is he both able and willing? Then whence cometh evil?
Is he neither able nor willing? Then why call him God?”
"why do you want to stop it, because you identify it as evil/bad. It’s precisely because you have that standard that you are able to make these moral decisions in life. Without that standard, you would not even be a moral creature to be making these kinds of statements."
Nothing supernatural is needed for that, not any religion either, yours has you trying to justify a middle aged man raping a nine year old girl, so the standard you're claiming helps morality hasn't helped yours has it, if you can't see that as an evil and immoral act.
@ROYISM: Whether suffering is inflicted by man or by nature… the fact is that suffering has to exist for ‘good’ to have any meaning. When there are diseases, goodness manifests itself in the form of people trying to assuage your pain
In fact, god is redundant, isn't it? Evil comes from nature and people. Relief from evil comes from people. Talk of rewards in the afterlife is just a confidence trick used to keep the downtrodden quiet.
You said: “In fact, god is redundant, isn't it? Evil comes from nature and people. Relief from evil comes from people.”
No… that’s not what I meant. I am sorry if I didn’t express myself clearly. Everything ultimately comes from God. After all, evil exists because god created it, and so is good. We humans have the choice of applying ourselves in pursuit of that evil (created by god) or in pursuit of that good (created by God)… and based on how we apply ourselves we will be rewarded. And obviously, in our application of good or evil, there will be others who are affected in different ways. For each of those who suffer, they have their own roles to play in the larger scheme of things, and they will be duly rewarded for their roles. That’s the long and short of it.
So all the world's a stage, and all the people merely players in god's Punch and Judy Show?
And remember, he's omniscient, so he knows what choices you will make before you make them, Free Will notwithstanding. And he's omnipotent, and the JudeoChristian god had no trouble exercising that omnipotence or overriding Free Will when he felt like it.
If it had been possible for me to save that child I would have. It was possible for an all powerful god to have done so. Therefore, my morals are superior to an all powerful god.
"If it had been possible for me to save that child I would have. It was possible for an all powerful god to have done so. Therefore, my morals are superior to an all powerful god."
Whilst this is true it's also obvious that there are parasitic organisms with better morals than such a deity would have.
You said: “If it had been possible for me to save that child I would have. It was possible for an all powerful god to have done so. Therefore, my morals are superior to an all powerful god.”
The reason you are talking of ‘doing’ good is because God created evil (in this case the disease)… without it ‘good’ would be meaningless. If God had not created good and bad, there would be no such thing as morality. Good and evil is the foundation of our morality… to question its creation because you think it’s immoral is a contradiction.
If you cause "evil" despite being able to prevent it, you are evil, by definition.
Saying that I need to commit evil acts in order that others appreciate the good in life does not make me any less evil.
You seem to be saying that it is possible for us to not suffer while having no concept of morality...while god has a concept of morality, and chooses to do evil.
You said: “If you cause "evil" despite being able to prevent it, you are evil, by definition.”
The ‘goodness’ or evilness of a deed has to be judged based on their overall outcome. If you only saw doctors operating on a patient, you might think it’s immoral (because they are cutting him open)… but when you know that the patient is going to be cured of some ailment as a result of it, the deeds of the doctors will appear benign. Similarly, if suffering is a means to a greater good, then you can’t call God immoral on account of the sufferings you see on earth.
But at a more ontological level, if you thought about it, even for you to make a judgement on morality, you need a standard – which is ‘good’ and ‘evil’. So you are calling god immoral because he created the standard by which you can measure morality… It’s like you complaining about the precision of a measuring scale, while all you have got with you to make measurements is the measuring scale itself!!!
Royism:. "The ‘goodness’ or evilness of a deed has to be judged based on their overall outcome. If you only saw doctors operating on a patient, you might think it’s immoral (because they are cutting him open)… but when you know that the patient is going to be cured of some ailment as a result of it, the deeds of the doctors will appear benign. Similarly, if suffering is a means to a greater good, then you can’t call God immoral on account of the sufferings you see on earth."
This reasoning only applies to men, who are limited by their circumstances. Doctors open a patient because they have no other way to save his life. It is not for nothing that medical students must take the Hippocratic Oath. And one of the promises within that oath is “first, do no harm” (or “primum non nocere,” the Latin translation from the original Greek.)
Now, when we talk about an all-knowing, all-powerful being, if he chooses to reach his means by way of inflicting suffering into his creation, that being is immoral by any standard and notwithstanding the final objective of his actions.
Sorry, but your justification does not cut it with me.
@ aperez 241
You said: This reasoning only applies to men, who are limited by their circumstances. Doctors open a patient because they have no other way to save his life. It is not for nothing that medical students must take the Hippocratic Oath. And one of the promises within that oath is “first, do no harm” (or “primum non nocere,” the Latin translation from the original Greek.)
That’s a good point. The example I gave applies only after the first principle is established. The first principle is that good and evil must exist for there to be the concept of morality. Once you accept that premise, then the example of the doctors can be applied to god as well.
However, what you have called into question is the very notion of that first principle? As in, why should there ever be ‘evil’? If evil was not there, the idea of good would be meaningless. If Good does not exist, then you would have no such thing as morality. If there is no such thing as morality, you would not be able to make moral judgements of others, including God’s, as you are doing now.
So, good and evil is the only standard you have at your disposal to judge morality? And you call God immoral because he gave you that standard. Do you see the cyclical logic you are caught in? That is why first principles are can’t be questioned… they are there because they are there… that’s all. In philosophy you call this the axiomatic concepts… the concept from which all other concepts can be derived, but those concept themselves can’t be derived… they are because they are. Period.
"The ‘goodness’ or evilness of a deed has to be judged based on their overall outcome."
No it doesn't, that's called moral consequentialism.
Is it ever moral to torture someone?
Very well said ROYISM that`s how the Christian teaching follows also. We wouldn`t know what was good if there wasn`t a thing that derives from bad(EVIL). At the end God weighs everything and then has an outcome. good things do come out of pain and suffering.
@FIG Re: "good things do come out of pain and suffering."
Oh, hey there, FIG! You still here? Shouldn't you be somewhere else eating paste and sticking crayons up your nose? Wait... Let me guess... You ran out of paste, didn't you? Sorry to hear that. Anyway, since you are back....
Thankfully for me, unlike you and your fellow automaton brainless wonders, I do not need to see the exploded brains of a ten year old child to appreciate the good I have in my life. Oh, and one other thing while you are here. Something I forgot to tell you earlier. You were totally correct when you said God had nothing to do with that incident. That is the point I was trying to make all along. There is no god to cause it or intervene one way or the other. But, even IF there was a god who allowed it, then he/she/it is totally fucked up and not worthy of respect.
So, thanks again for stopping by. Scamper off back to your padded room now. Maybe you could do some finger-painting with your own poo until they can get you some more paste. Toodles!
your selection of words leave something to be desired; please don`t curse god for the evils done in this world. We have a thing called free will where not automatons What took place happens here in my state also I`m talking about new York, The reason I said that is happened in what I perceive is a black neighborhood is because that is the majority of people you have living in government supporting housing the projects. A funny thing is that you said in your first response to me is that there were churches everywhere. well isn`t that the truth about a lot of neighborhoods but people either aren`t attending or they not taking heed to the message and living out the gospel .You have to blame the absentee father which is due to our culture today, also the gangster rap songs and violent video games and most of all to lazy to educate themselves or go get a job. Please don`t fill me here with excuses, I grew up in the City so I heard all the excuses you or they can throw at me.Alot of people have evil in there hearts and want to hurt others. just like you and the language you use on this forum. clean it up please!!!.
@FIG FUCK god! FUCK jesus!
You my friend better watch yourself or you just may wind up in hell!!! I`ll wash your mouth out with soap if you were my relative!!!!You have no logical or pertinent arguments or responses that`s why you take the easy way out with profanity. I put the blame on the moderator here for allowing this to continue, because there allowing this to continue I will not support financially this forum with my hard earned money anymore, to they do something about this profanity. YOU GOT ONE LESS SUPPORTER!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Well a few vituperations are nothing to get hysterical over. It's not like some complete scumbag who publicly claims someone who died of cancer deserved it, just because they didn't share his bat shit crazy hokum superstitious beliefs.
"because there allowing this to continue "#
They fucking are is not abbreviated as fucking there for fuck sake, how many fucking times.
"I will not support financially this forum "
I'm sure they're all fucking devastated. I know you're none too bright Billy, but do you really think anyone's going to believe you were ever offering financial support to an atheist forum? If you're unhappy you could always leave? I for one would not miss your pompous arrogant sententious bullshit.
@FIG Re: "I`ll wash your mouth out with soap if you were my relative!!!!"
Oh, WOW! Now THAT would be fun to watch! I would pay money to see that! *clapping with gleeful joy* Although.... Were you talking to me or Myk? It was hard to tell. Oh, well. Doesn't matter. Either way it would be a blast to see you try. LOL
Re: FIG - "YOU GOT ONE LESS SUPPORTER!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!"
Well, hell, He finally got the right amount of exclamation points. That statement MUST be true. Okay, everybody! Pack it up! We've got to go! FIG is no longer supporting the site! Get your shit and get out! Move-it-move-it-move-it!
If you believe that someone should go to hell for swearing, you have a very warped sense of morality. I wouldn't send even such an abhorrent individual as yourself to hell.
Hey, Myk! What is your favorite brand of soap for mouth washing? Personally, I prefer Ivory Soap, but I admit Irish Spring does leave my breath smelling fresher.
Wright's Coal Tar soap, I have loved the smell since I was a child, and now and again it does smell good enough to eat, though I'd not recommend it. FWIW I'll take your cogent rational intelligent posts, and any amount of vituperation, over Billy's malicious petty, sententious, irrational, idiotic, superstitious twaddle, and his execrable spelling and grammar any day of thefuckingweek.
@FIG Re: "Alot of people have evil in there hearts and want to hurt others. just like you and the language you use on this forum. clean it up please!!!."
Oh, I freely admit there have been (and are) times when I really wanted to hurt others. And there have been times when I have. But I have no evil in my heart. Fortunately, for most of those I may want to hurt, what I do happen to have is a conscious and a strong sense of personal integrity in that I happen to try to obey those major laws that a civilized society attempts to uphold. And you know what? Your pathetic and immoral excuse for a god has nothing to do with it. As for my language, little man.... If you don't fucking like it, then get the fuck out of here and don't fucking read it. Love ya, mean it. *smooch*
So the religious bigot is also an unpleasant racist, and he's lecturing us about his superior objective morality, irony overload.
How he has the nerve let alone the stupidity to ask someone else to clean up their language is really mind boggling. Tin man's odd use of vituperation is fine, your appallingly vile racism and bigotry is not, try cleaning that up. Feel free to apply soap to your gob if you think that will help, as your views are repugnant.
So the only way an omniscient omnipotent deity can show us what is good is by torturing us? What a truly moronic idea.
"good things do come out of pain and suffering."
Exactly the kind of sadistic bullshit the Albanian nun used to enjoy.
According to the fairy tale the more severe the beating the more Yahweh loves you. If you aren't getting beaten then Yahweh hates you. Didn't he beat the crap out of Yeshua?