Bible inconsistencies
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OldDogNewTricks,
So you missed the letters in your manuscript that are only found in the modern Greek alphabet and not in the Greek alphabets that were in use in the 4th & 5th Centuries.
Speaking of the Koran you do know that the ones in use today are fakes, don't you? Do you think that Uthman's committee wrote everything in numbered verses like the Bible? Who do you think reformatted the Koran and why do muslims think that what they are fed today is the original Koran? Just like other people they believe in their favorite fairy tale without question because they are too _______ to actually think about it. The guy who reformatted it should have included a verse about Mohammed riding a motorcycle through the desert and idiots would believe it without a second thought.
Here is the plain fact = You simply can't produce an original authentic Bible (a book with all or most of the current content found in today's various Bible versions) that was written before the 690s A.D. That is not to say that you can't find bits and pieces of various tattered scrolls but you can't produce an actual Bible written before then. It simply is not going to happen on this planet.
Of course the contents were known way before the 8th Century because they were oral stories. You probably know the basics about King Arthur and Robin Hood even if you never read a book about either of them and even if you aren't English.
There are chapters in Sirach that lists a bullet point about each main OT biblical character https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Sirach+44-50&version=CEB
So if you read that basic information about each character couldn't you write some BS stories about them over the next few days?
Dio
You have been presented with loads of argument and evidence, which you ignore, while presenting no evidence of your own, only wild claims. Your claims have been demolished. Live with it.
OldDogNewTricks,
May your faith in hoaxes continue to give you comfort in the future.
Dio
My faith is in demonstrable facts that stand up to scrutiny and form a coherent picture, as befits those who visit an atheist forum. May you someday realize the error of your conspiracy theory religion.
OldDogNewTricks,
I'm sure that others will be as interested as I would be to examine your legitimate original clearly legible Bible that was written before 692. So kill the conspiracy and produce it.
Dio
There are lots of bibles and individual books and pages and fragments definitely before 692. Oh but I forgot, those are all forgeries as well as all the writings about scripture and what should be canon written well before 692. Explain why forgeries made AFTER 692 should be in poor condition and have significant differences among them despite the alleged forgeries going to the trouble of duplicating ancient paleography. Why so incredibly skilled but also so inept? And don’t forget that some of them are on papyrus. Not only that but they made forgeries not just in koine Greek of the 1st century but in Syriac, Coptic, Gothic, Armenian and Anglo-Saxon. Also explain why if the bible was created by a committee in the 7th century, there are clear signs of evolution of beliefs commensurate with the passage of time in the 1st century CE to the point of blatant contradictions among books of the bible. Why would they do that? And that is just the problems with your conspiracy theory concerning the NT. If you want the OT to have been created in the 7th century, then both Talmuds and the Dead Sea Scrolls and the Septuagint manuscripts have to be forgeries as well. And why not? You already have the Qur’an being a forgery to get around the People of the Book problem.
Face it. Your conspiracy theory is simply ludicrous.
OldDogNewTricks,
IMO you are overlooking human nature. Sure, there were bits and pieces of various ethnocentric Middle Eastern Jewish religious fairy tales floating around the area before the Bible was written. But they were not the Bible. There was not one single book with all of the stories that we now call the Bible in existence before the 690s.
The Talmuds were written in the 400s and 500s. The Babylonian Talmud is pure garbage that doesn't have one worthwhile idea in it.
As I've said before, produce a clear legible authentic original Bible written before the 690s. You simply can't do it because it doesn't exist. You would think that if such a Bible had ever existed that there would be some copies of it scattered around the Mediterranean area. It would be worth a $Billion easily. But all you have to offer are fakes written in the modern Greek alphabet.
There are two passages in the Bible that show that the writers were pulling a prank.
The first is Titus 1:14 (CEV) = "14 Don’t pay any attention to any of those senseless Jewish stories and human commands. These are made up by people who won’t obey the truth."
Now think about that. What is the Bible? It is a collection of Jewish stories. How many of them make logical sense? Wouldn't you agree that they are mostly senseless? If so why would you pay any attention to any of them? Even the Bible said that you shouldn't. Do you think a Jewish writer wrote that or was it written by the writer in England who wrote the book?
The second passage is hidden in 2 Maccabees 15:37-39 (CEB) = "37 After things turned out this way with Nicanor, the Hebrews controlled the city from that time on. So at this point I will stop. 38 If the story was told effectively, this is what I wanted. But if it was told in a poor and mediocre fashion, this was the best I could do. 39 Just as it is harmful to drink wine or water alone while wine mixed with water is delightful and produces joy, so also may the writing of this story delight the ears of those who encounter this work.
The end."
Verses 38 & 39 could be the final verses in the entire Bible. The writer included them to show that it is all just one big story meant for entertainment. The English are fantastic story tellers. One thing is for certain and that is that no Jew or Greek wrote any of it. Consider the stilted language found in the Talmud. If a Jewish writer from that area had written the Bible no one would read any of it. And all the Greeks did was translate the original Latin into modern Greek.
I never said that the Koran was a forgery. I said that the modern Korans that even wingnut mullahs use is not the original Koran because they cite numbered verses, which the original Koran did not use. So who formatted the Koran like the Bible and when did he do it? It is just like the average Protestant who doesn't have a clue about biblical history and don't know that the committee who revised the Bible in the late 1870s-early 1880s deleted the Apocrypha. Instead they think that the Catholics added the books. They don't know that they are reading the Readers Digest version of the Bible instead of the complete Bible.
And since countless people in all sorts of industries get their income and status and power from selling religious fairy tales to gullible people they will do everything to cover up the lies. Heck, English architects designed a lot of muslim mosques around the world. Do you think the company that sells magic Mormon underwear is going to call the Book of Mormon trash?
I suggest that you take some time to really study the issue. I'm sure that you analyze your average business deal with more scrutiny and care than you have been doing on religious issues.
Ribs.
Another inconsistency. If god removed a rib to create woman, how come everyone has that missing rib now?
David Killens: "Ribs. Another inconsistency. If god removed a rib to create woman, how come everyone has that missing rib now?"
Maybe because it was never taken in the first place? Anyone else here ever had school teachers teach that us males have a missing rib? I remember proving one teacher wrong by showing us males do not have a missing rib. Of course I got an ass whooping from the Principal. Then me mom chewed my ear off and grounded me for a week. Thus, I did mine own studies in school. Besides, I still got my weekly ass whooping on Sundays.
But I still find it unbelieveable that teachers would actually teach that kind of bullshit in public schools. Even 50+ years ago. Then again, public schools where I grew up were completely dominated by those damned Religious Absolutists. Sorry ass shits.
rmfr
Of course there was no god and there is no missing rib. In fact, those we loosely define "doctors" in the dark ages feared to explore the human body lest they find that missing rib. That is why they call it the dark ages because religion put a massive damper on the advancement of science and medicine.
Leonardo da Vinci, in his quest to portray the human body properly, was a grave robber who dissected corpses to learn what was under the skin. And his actions were not approved by all. Most of his sketches are basically anatomy he learned from dissection. Imagine, 1500 AD and that is how delayed progress was. Just because of religion.
David Killens
Everyone knows that anointing the sick with magic oil and praying over them will cure every disease and disorder known to man.
James 5:13-16 (CEV) = "13 If you are having trouble, you should pray. And if you are feeling good, you should sing praises. 14 If you are sick, ask the church leaders[a] to come and pray for you. Ask them to put olive oil[b] on you in the name of the Lord. 15 If you have faith when you pray for sick people, they will get well. The Lord will heal them, and if they have sinned, he will forgive them.
16 If you have sinned, you should tell each other what you have done. Then you can pray for one another and be healed. The prayer of an innocent person is powerful, and it can help a lot. "
The Romans had a pretty good medical corp for dealing with combat wounds. Maybe they would have eventually developed blood transfusions and antiseptics. I don't think olive oil and prayers are an effective treatment for an arrow in the knee.
Some people went ape shit crazy when doctors got the nerve to start operating on the heart. Now there are some who want to stop stem cell research and other medical advances. We still have a long way to go before we are out of the caves.
David Killens,
"Another inconsistency. If god removed a rib to create woman, how come everyone has that missing rib now?"
You are looking at it all wrong.
See, Adam was all alone so God decided to make him a helpmate. And when he took one of Adam's rib to make him a helpmate he ended up with another man. God saw that that wasn't going to work out exactly right so he put thr rib back and when he did he took the new guy's penis as well. So that is why we don't have any missing ribs and why women don't have external penises.
Dio:1. "Please cite chapter and verse in the Gospels where Jesus said to kiss his butt."
Matthew 7:21-27. John 15:4-7. Matthew 10:32
***
Matthew 7:21-27
Matthew 7 (ESV)
21 “Not everyone who says to me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter the kingdom of heaven, but the one who does the will of my Father who is in heaven. 22 On that day many will say to me, ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name, and cast out demons in your name, and do many mighty works in your name?’ 23 And then will I declare to them, ‘I never knew you; depart from me, you workers of lawlessness.’
V 21 The ones who will enter the kingdom of heaven as those who do the will of the Father. Not kissing the butt of Jesus but doing what the Father said. What did the Father say to do? What is in the written Torah, the word of God.
Matthew 19 (ESV)
16 And behold, a man came up to him, saying, “Teacher, what good deed must I do to have eternal life?” 17 And he said to him, “Why do you ask me about what is good? There is only one who is good. If you would enter life, keep the commandments.” 18 He said to him, “Which ones?” And Jesus said, “You shall not murder, You shall not commit adultery, You shall not steal, You shall not bear false witness, 19 Honor your father and mother, and, You shall love your neighbor as yourself.”
Which commandments are to be followed? The ones in the Torah- these are all quotes from the Torah - and especially the ones that actually accomplish something good- like the particular ones cited - and not just meaningless ritual like for example the oral Torah of the Pharisees that Jesus called ‘commandments of men’ in Matthew 15. Notice that in Matthew 19:17 above, Jesus directs attention to God and away from himself, a nice lead in to quoting the Torah.
Who are those in 7:22 who prophesy and cast out demons and do mighty works in the name of Jesus? Who are the workers of lawlessness (7:23) that Jesus rejects as his followers? The Pauline epistles mention prophesying, miracle working etc. but also reject the Law. Paul and his followers are the workers of lawlessness.
Matthew 7 (ESV)
24 “Everyone then who hears these words of mine and does them will be like a wise man who built his house on the rock. 25 And the rain fell, and the floods came, and the winds blew and beat on that house, but it did not fall, because it had been founded on the rock. 26 And everyone who hears these words of mine and does not do them will be like a foolish man who built his house on the sand. 27 And the rain fell, and the floods came, and the winds blew and beat against that house, and it fell, and great was the fall of it.”
What are the words of Jesus that are to be done? Go back and read the quote from Matthew 19 again. It is the Torah. Those who heard them and do them (follow Jewish Law) are those whose house was founded on a rock which stood. Those who hear them and do not do them are those whose house will collapse. Mathew is having Jesus argue against Pauline Christianity.
We can see here an echo of an earlier passage in Matthew.
Matthew 5 (ESV)
17 “Do not think that I have come to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I have not come to abolish them but to fulfill them. 18 For truly, I say to you, until heaven and earth pass away, not an iota, not a dot, will pass from the Law until all is accomplished. 19 Therefore whoever relaxes one of the least of these commandments and teaches others to do the same will be called least in the kingdom of heaven, but whoever does them and teaches them will be called great in the kingdom of heaven.
The entire written Law is here to say, Matthew has Jesus say. Whoever relaxes any of the Law and teaches others the same is the pits. Anyone who accepts the entire Law goes to the head of the class. Take that Paul.
Let’s backtrack a little to Matthew 7:24 and the “wise man who built his house on the rock”. Compare that to this:
Matthew 16:18 And I tell you, you are Peter, and on this rock I will build my church,
Is Matthew authorizing the Catholic Papacy here? No. In the Pauline epistles, Paul is the apostle to the Gentiles and Peter is the apostle to the Jews. Matthew is having Jesus side with Peter, apostle of the Jewish Christian church. Once again, a slap at ‘lawless’ Paul.
That is what Matthew 7:21-27 is all about.
Matthew 10:32
In context:
Matthew 10 (ESV)
23 When they persecute you in one town, flee to the next, for truly, I say to you, you will not have gone through all the towns of Israel before the Son of Man comes.
24 “A disciple is not above his teacher, nor a servant above his master. 25 It is enough for the disciple to be like his teacher, and the servant like his master. If they have called the master of the house Beelzebul, how much more will they malign those of his household.
26 “So have no fear of them, for nothing is covered that will not be revealed, or hidden that will not be known. 27 What I tell you in the dark, say in the light, and what you hear whispered, proclaim on the housetops. 28 And do not fear those who kill the body but cannot kill the soul. Rather fear him who can destroy both soul and body in hell. 29 Are not two sparrows sold for a penny? And not one of them will fall to the ground apart from your Father. 30 But even the hairs of your head are all numbered. 31 Fear not, therefore; you are of more value than many sparrows. 32 So everyone who acknowledges me before men, I also will acknowledge before my Father who is in heaven, 33 but whoever denies me before men, I also will deny before my Father who is in heaven.
V 23 Who is it that is persecuting Matthew’s Jewish Christian community in Israel?
V 24 Who is it that said that Jesus’ master is Beelzebul?
Matthew 12 (ESV)
22 Then a demon-oppressed man who was blind and mute was brought to him, and he healed him, so that the man spoke and saw. 23 And all the people were amazed, and said, “Can this be the Son of David?” 24 But when the Pharisees heard it, they said, “It is only by Beelzebul, the prince of demons, that this man casts out demons.”
It is the Pharisees. In the time when Matthew wrote, ca. 80 CE or so, that would be the equivalent of the Pharisees that would be opposed to Jewish Christianity? It would be the new rabbinic Judaism, founded by Pharisees and denying that Jesus was the Messiah. But those who acknowledge Jesus as the Jewish Messiah – the theme of Matthew – will be acknowledged before the Father.
This is what Matthew 10:32 is about: encouraging Jewish Christians to keep the faith that Jesus really was the Messiah. No butt kissing involved.
John 15:4-7
In context.:
John 15
1 “I am the true vine, and my Father is the vinedresser. 2 Every branch in me that does not bear fruit he takes away, and every branch that does bear fruit he prunes, that it may bear more fruit. 3 Already you are clean because of the word that I have spoken to you. 4 Abide in me, and I in you. As the branch cannot bear fruit by itself, unless it abides in the vine, neither can you, unless you abide in me. 5 I am the vine; you are the branches. Whoever abides in me and I in him, he it is that bears much fruit, for apart from me you can do nothing. 6 If anyone does not abide in me he is thrown away like a branch and withers; and the branches are gathered, thrown into the fire, and burned. 7 If you abide in me, and my words abide in you, ask whatever you wish, and it will be done for you. 8 By this my Father is glorified, that you bear much fruit and so prove to be my disciples.
Jesus is the vine. His disciples, the people he is talking to, are the branches, the extensions of Jesus that will go out into the world preaching. Jesus has been gone a long time when John wrote. Unlike the other Gospels, John has abandoned the idea of a near-term return of Jesus. It is now around the end of the 1st century and that idea does not sell any more. To keep the faith alive, a continuing connection to (the absent) Jesus is stressed. The disciples – and by extension everyone – must keep their minds connected t Jesus. They must abide in Jesus and Jesus will abide in them. Two-way street here. A kind of equality and even equivalence, not butt kissing.
Any of the disciples (original or later Christian) who do not acknowledge this intimate connection to Jesus is going to be removed by the Father. Some of those who do acknowledge this connection are going to be pruned (martyred), their faith serving as an example to others of keeping the faith. This was the age of the so-called Domitian persecutions, which were actually carried on more or less unofficially in the provinces and only vaguely authorized by Rome. Earlier there had been a serious persecution of Christians in Rome under Nero, which Mark refers to. John 21 refers to the crucifixion of Peter, which tradition has happening in Rome under Nero,
2. "Can you give any instance of Jesus being asked to give something that he had and refusing?"
John 12:1-8
1 Six days before the Passover, Jesus therefore came to Bethany, where Lazarus was, whom Jesus had raised from the dead. 2 So they gave a dinner for him there. Martha served, and Lazarus was one of those reclining with him at table. 3 Mary therefore took a pound of expensive ointment made from pure nard, and anointed the feet of Jesus and wiped his feet with her hair. The house was filled with the fragrance of the perfume. 4 But Judas Iscariot, one of his disciples (he who was about to betray him), said, 5 “Why was this ointment not sold for three hundred denarii and given to the poor?” 6 He said this, not because he cared about the poor, but because he was a thief, and having charge of the moneybag he used to help himself to what was put into it. 7 Jesus said, “Leave her alone, so that she may keep it for the day of my burial. 8 For the poor you always have with you, but you do not always have me.”
Jesus was not asked to give anything to anyone so he could not have refused. Mary took the ointment and put it on the feet of Jesus. Jesus never had it. Judas complained later that it could have been sold but it was too late for that. He was criticizing Mary of Bethany for not selling it and giving him the money (so he could embezzle it).
OldDogNewTricks,
The story about Jesus getting doused with the expensive perfume for his own vanity is like the passage in Mark 7:11-13 (CEV) = "11 But you let people get by without helping their parents when they should. You let them say that what they own has been offered to God. 12 You won’t let those people help their parents. 13 And you ignore God’s commands in order to follow your own teaching. You do a lot of other things that are just as bad."
When Yeshua was yakking about how people should be charitable in Matthew 25:31-46? So what did he do when he himself had the opportunity to be charitable? He kept it all for himself claiming that the woman had offered the perfume to God (himself of course). And then in Matthew 25:31-46 (MSG) he says = 41-43 “Then he will turn to the ‘goats,’ the ones on his left, and say, ‘Get out, worthless goats! You’re good for nothing but the fires of hell. And why? Because—
I was hungry and you gave me no meal,
I was thirsty and you gave me no drink,
I was homeless and you gave me no bed,
I was shivering and you gave me no clothes,
Sick and in prison, and you never visited.’
44 “Then those ‘goats’ are going to say, ‘Master, what are you talking about? When did we ever see you hungry or thirsty or homeless or shivering or sick or in prison and didn’t help?’
45 “He will answer them, ‘I’m telling the solemn truth: Whenever you failed to do one of these things to someone who was being overlooked or ignored, that was me—you failed to do it to me.’
46 “Then those ‘goats’ will be herded to their eternal doom, but the ‘sheep’ to their eternal reward.”
Weren't the poor hungry, thirsty, and homeless? Why didn't Yeshua stop the woman from dousing him with the perfume when he could have told her to sell it and give the money to the poor? He didn't because he was a goat who only thought about himself. He wanted people to follow his own teachings instead of doing what was right. He was a world-class hypocrite. And then Judas gets the blame by making him into a thief who would have stolen the money for his own use.
Televangelists have been following Jesus' example without deviation. Instead of telling the dummies to directly help the poor they tell the dummies to give them the cash so that they can buy fancy private plab\nes and expensive houses for their own use. Jesus would have gotten super-rich off of the dummies of today.
3. "Your claim about the Babylonian Talmud is utterly wrong. If you want to argue the point, cite relevant sections.”
Kethuboth 111a = "Abaye stated: We have a tradition that Babel50 will not witness the sufferings51 [that will precede the coming] of the Messiah.52 He [also] explained it53 to refer54 to Huzal55 in Benjamin which would be named56 the Corner of Safety.57"
The numbers are footnotes =
50 = [H], usually rendered 'Babylon', but v. infra notes 6 and 7.
51 = Or 'travail'.
52 = [H]; 'but the more correct reading is [H] (Moore, G.F., Judaism II 361, n. 2). [H] 'frequent in modern Christian books is fictitious' (loc. cit.). The 'sufferings' or 'travail' are more fully described in Sanh. 97b, Sonc. ed. p. 654. These are the 'throes of mother Zion which is in labor to bring forth the Messiah — without metaphor, the Jewish people' (Moore, loc. cit. text).
53 = The tradition as to the immunity of Babel.
54 = Not, as might be assumed, to the well known Babylon (cf. supra note 2).
55 = [H], a village to the north of Jerusalem between Tel Al-Ful and Nob 'the city of the priests'. It was known by many names including that of [H] (v. Horowitz, I.S., Palestine, p. 73. nn 3ff, s.v. [H]). Neubauer, (Geogr. p. 152) describes it as an old fortress in Palestine (v. Jast.). There was also a Huzal in Babylonia between Nehardea and Sura. Cf. Sanh. 19a, Sonc. ed. p. 98, n. 3 and Berliner, Beitr. z. Geogr. p. 32.
56 = [H], lit., 'and they would call it'. The pronoun according to Rashi refers to the 'days of the Messiah', but this is difficult.
57 = The noun [H] is regarded here as the Hof. of [H] 'to save'.
http://www.come-and-hear.com/kethuboth/kethuboth_111.html
***
Are you talking about “These are the 'throes of mother Zion which is in labor to bring forth the Messiah — without metaphor, the Jewish people'”?
It is ‘mother Zion’ that is the metaphor for the Jewish people, not the Messiah. The Messiah is not a metaphor, but ‘mother Zion’ certainly is and clearly is a metaphor for the Jewish people. Would the Jewish people be in labor to bring forth the Jewish people? No. Would the Jewish people be in labor to bring forth the Messiah? Yes.
Your quote references Tractate Sanhedrin of the Talmud. I recommend that you read Sanhedrin 97a and 97b which follows it and consider whether the Talmud says that the Messiah is the Jewish people. The Jewish people are here. The Messiah is yet to come.
https://www.sefaria.org/Sanhedrin.97a?lang=bi
4. "It was only by the strict interpretation of the rule-obsessive Shammai Pharisees that Jesus was perceived to break the Law. His disciples were hungry and they pulled off some heads of grain to eat. According to rabbinical interpretation reaping is work. Whether this really counts as reaping is the question."
You are ignoring the story in Exodus 16:14-35 about the manna. They had to collect enough of it on the 6th day so that they would have enough for the Sabbath. In Exodus 16:29 it says that on the sixth day they were to gather enough manna for the Sabbath and that they were not to go out. Moses would have had the disciples stoned to death for being too stupid to not have enough food for the Sabbath without having to gather it on the day of rest.
***
Exodus 16
4 Then the Lord said to Moses, “Behold, I am about to rain bread from heaven for you, and the people shall go out and gather a day's portion every day, that I may test them, whether they will walk in my law or not.
Preparing a meal is work. Gathering a day’s portion of manna is like preparing a meal to be eaten later. It is not eaten on the spot. Eating is not work. In fact, Jewish Sabbath is very much about eating. Manna was eaten on the Sabbath. Not work.
The word translated as ‘work’ is melachah.
“Melachah generally refers to the kind of work that is creative, or that exercises control or dominion over your environment.”
http://www.jewfaq.org/shabbat.htm
Recall the distinction between gathering and simply eating that is drawn in Deuteronomy.
Deuteronomy 23 (ESV)
24 If you go into your neighbor's vineyard, you may eat your fill of grapes, as many as you wish, but you shall not put any in your bag. 25 If you go into your neighbor's standing grain, you may pluck the ears with your hand, but you shall not put a sickle to your neighbor's standing grain.
Putting the grapes in a bag would be harvesting, implying dominion over the environment. Likewise, putting a sickle to standing grain. Simply eating, even though it is not even yours, is of no consequence other than satisfying hunger. And that is definitely allowed on the Sabbath. Harvesting your neighbor’s crops for other than eating on the spot is exercising dominion over your neighbor’s environment and therefore not allowed ever.
Shammai was a stickler for strict interpretation of the Law. His followers were just plain fanatical about over-interpretation. Rabbinic Judaism, which is the basis of today’s Orthodox Judaism, was founded by the Hillel Pharisees who mostly followed Hillel’s interpretations rather than Shammai’s. But it was the Shammai Pharisees who were predominant in the era in question.
Gathering manna and not eating it all on the spot is like putting grapes in a bag or cutting down grain. It is work because it exercises dominion over the environment, gathering food for later use. Exodus is irrelevant to the case at hand.
5. "The opposition of the Pharisees to healing on the Sabbath is very interesting. Was there really a rule that one could not heal on the Sabbath?"
The rule was that you could not do any work of any kind on the Sabbath. If you did then you would be killed.
https://www.biblegateway.com/quicksearch/?quicksearch=work+sabbath&qs_ve...
So suppose you needed medical treatment on the Sabbath but in order to get it the doctor had to gather some sticks for a fire to boil some water. We know what happened to the guy who picked up sticks on the Sabbath. He was stoned to death. You couldn't even tie a stitch because tying a knot is work. So sorry buddy you're going to have to suffer because I don't want to get stoned to death for trying to cure what ails you.
***
Wrong. In Jewish law, obtaining necessary medical treatment is always allowed even if it contravenes almost all other laws. (Two laws that can never be broken are the prohibitions against blasphemy and idolatry.) This provision for safeguarding health is the principle of pikuach nefesh.
https://www.myjewishlearning.com/article/saving-a-life-pikuach-nefesh/
Dio: BTW, Yeshua was a Pharisee himself since he believed in everything that the Pharisees believed in. He was just a hypocrite when it came to following the rules. Christians and muslims also believe in Pharisee beliefs but don't follow the rules.
***
Jesus was not a Pharisee. Pharisees believed in the oral Torah. Jesus did not. Christians and Muslims do not believe in the oral Torah Pharisaic rules. Do you seriously believe that Christians and Muslims believe that they are required to put on tefillin and pray every weekday but simply do not do so? How many Christians or Muslims even know what the heck tefillin is? Your claim is just plain nonsense.
The problem here is that you do not understand the distinction between the written Torah, which Jesus strongly supported, and the heavy-duty oral Torah as presented by the Shammai Pharisees, which Jesus opposed. You think that the written Torah is the whole of the Shammai Pharisee beliefs. Wrong.
OldDogNewTricks,
"Jesus was not a Pharisee. Pharisees believed in the oral Torah. Jesus did not. Christians and Muslims do not believe in the oral Torah Pharisaic rules. "
Of course Jesus, Christians, and muslims and you believe in what the Pharisees believed in. They believed in ghosts, angels, demons, spirits, and resurrections. Jesus believed in those same things. Christians believe in those same things. Muslims believe in those same things. And you believe in those same things. That qualifies you and people who believe in those things as Pharisees. Sadducees don't believe in that crap.
OldDogNewTricks,
"Wrong. In Jewish law, obtaining necessary medical treatment is always allowed even if it contravenes almost all other laws."
Can you give one instance from the Old Testament when someone was given medical treatment on the sabbath?
Diotrephes
#2
You said a particular passage represented Jesus having something and refusing to give it up when asked. Jesus never had the perfume and was never asked to give it up. Judas said that it should have gone to the poor, meaning his own pocket. Now you want to turn it into something else other than what you said. Face it, your claim was wrong. You picked the verses, not me.
BTW with your ‘move the goalposts’ style of argument, you would do well as a Christian apologist.
#5
Dio: "Jesus was not a Pharisee. Pharisees believed in the oral Torah. Jesus did not. Christians and Muslims do not believe in the oral Torah Pharisaic rules. "
Of course Jesus, Christians, and muslims and you believe in what the Pharisees believed in. They believed in ghosts, angels, demons, spirits, and resurrections. Jesus believed in those same things. Christians believe in those same things. Muslims believe in those same things. And you believe in those same things. That qualifies you and people who believe in those things as Pharisees. Sadducees don't believe in that crap.
***
Careful with lugging those goalposts around. You could get a hernia. The subject was whether Jesus subscribed to the excessively strict rules and regulations of the Shammai Pharisees. He did not as is very plain from a number of passages. Belief in ‘ghosts, angels, demons, spirits, and resurrection’ are irrelevant to that. Orthodox Jews believe in eating. You believe in eating. Therefore you believe the same things as Orthodox Jews. Duh…
You are getting really desperate in your ‘arguments’ and everyone sees it.
BTW where did you ever get the idea that I believe in the supernatural? If you look at my profile, you will see that I am an atheist. I am just well informed about the subject matter as you are clearly not.
Dio: “Wrong. In Jewish law, obtaining necessary medical treatment is always allowed even if it contravenes almost all other laws."
Can you give one instance from the Old Testament when someone was given medical treatment on the sabbath?
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I linked a Jewish rabbinical source, which quoted Leviticus, Tractate Yoma of the Talmud and the Halakha, for my claim about what Jewish beliefs and practices are in this regard. You did not want to include that link in your quote because it destroyed your argument.
Here is that link again.
https://www.myjewishlearning.com/article/saving-a-life-pikuach-nefesh/
Can you give one instance from the Old Testament where someone is refused medical treatment because it is the Sabbath? Mitzvah 263 says “To make a parapet for your roof”. This helps prevent people from falling off and being hurt. Can you give one instance from the Old Testament where someone made a parapet?
OldDogNewTricks,
"Mitzvah 263 says “To make a parapet for your roof”. This helps prevent people from falling off and being hurt. Can you give one instance from the Old Testament where someone made a parapet?"
Well, as a matter of fact =
Deuteronomy 22:8 (NKJV) = “When you build a new house, then you shall make a parapet for your roof, that you may not bring guilt of bloodshed on your household if anyone falls from it."
1 Kings 10:12 (CEB) = "The king used the almug wood to make parapets for the Lord’s temple and for the royal palace as well as lyres and harps for the musicians. To this day, that much almug wood hasn’t come into or been seen in Israel."
Sirach 9:13 (CEB) = "Keep far away from people who have the authority to kill, and you won’t be worried by the fear of death. If you do approach them, don’t make a mistake, or they might take away your life. Be aware that you are stepping among traps and that you are walking on the parapet of the city’s walls."
Can you give an example from the Old Testament when someone gave a person medical treatment on the sabbath?
Dio: "Mitzvah 263 says “To make a parapet for your roof”. This helps prevent people from falling off and being hurt. Can you give one instance from the Old Testament where someone made a parapet?"
Well, as a matter of fact =
Deuteronomy 22:8 (NKJV) = “When you build a new house, then you shall make a parapet for your roof, that you may not bring guilt of bloodshed on your household if anyone falls from it."
1 Kings 10:12 (CEB) = "The king used the almug wood to make parapets for the Lord’s temple and for the royal palace as well as lyres and harps for the musicians. To this day, that much almug wood hasn’t come into or been seen in Israel."
Sirach 9:13 (CEB) = "Keep far away from people who have the authority to kill, and you won’t be worried by the fear of death. If you do approach them, don’t make a mistake, or they might take away your life. Be aware that you are stepping among traps and that you are walking on the parapet of the city’s walls."
Can you give an example from the Old Testament when someone gave a person medical treatment on the sabbath?
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Deuteronomy 22:8 is the law that is expressed in Mitzvah 263. It is not itself an example of anyone building a parapet.
I noticed that you quoted this from the NKJV rather than your usual CEB. The CEB words it a little differently.
Deuteronomy 22:8 (CEB)
8 Whenever you build a new house, you must build a railing for the roof so that you don’t end up with innocent blood on your hands because someone fell off of it.
There is no difference in meaning. A parapet in the intended sense is a railing around the roof to keep people from falling off.
In the Hebrew for Deuteronomy 22:8, the word translated as ‘parapet’ is מַעֲקֶ֖ה (Strong’s H4624).
https://biblehub.com/interlinear/deuteronomy/22.htm
https://biblehub.com/hebrew/4624.htm
In the Hebrew for 1 Kings 10:12, the word that the CEB translates as ‘parapet’ is מִסְעָ֤ד (Strong’s H4552), which actually translates as ‘supports’. Parapets are on the roof, supports hold up the roof.
https://biblehub.com/interlinear/1_kings/10.htm
https://biblehub.com/hebrew/4552.htm
The NKJV, which you used to get the word ‘parapet’ in Deuteronomy 22:8, translates this verse as follows:
1 Kings 10:12 (NKJV)
12 And the king made [d]steps of the almug wood for the house of the Lord and for the king’s house, also harps and stringed instruments for singers. There never again came such almug wood, nor has the like been seen to this day.
The word becomes ‘steps’ with a footnote [d] that reads ‘or supports’. But not ‘parapets’.
Chabad Lubavitch translates this verse as:
Melachim I :10
12 And the king made of the almog-wood a path to the House of the Lord and to the king's palace, harps and psalteries to [accompany] the vocalists, there had come no such almog-wood nor has there been seen to this day.
https://www.chabad.org/library/bible_cdo/aid/15894
A path, which could be steps. But not a parapet.
It is unusual to use Sirach to determine the meaning of the Tanach, since it is not canonical. But let’s look at it anyway.
There is no Hebrew text of Sirach available. We must look to the Greek Septuagint instead.
The word that CEB translates as parapet is ἐπάλξεων.
http://en.katabiblon.com/us/index.php?text=LXX&book=Sir&ch=9&interlin=on
To find the meaning of ἐπάλξεων, requires going to the Greek classics. The good old Perseus project at Tufts University to the rescue! The word ἐπάλξεων means ‘breastwork’ or ‘battlement’. The battlements on a city wall usually were the stone crenellations – alternating high and low stonework – that allow defenders to fire arrows, throw stones etc. through the gaps then duck behind the high stonework for cover. The word parapet is sometimes used for this but it is not at all what Mitzvah 263 had in mind. it is not to keep people from falling off but from getting hit by arrows or slings.
http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/text?doc=Perseus%3Atext%3A1999.04.00...)%2Fpalcis
Breastwork is a low temporary fortification that is breast high. Similar idea – shoot then duck. But Sirach refers to a city wall so ‘battlement’ is the applicable word.
Let’s see how this applies to Sirach.
Sirach 9:13 (CEB) = "Keep far away from people who have the authority to kill, and you won’t be worried by the fear of death. If you do approach them, don’t make a mistake, or they might take away your life. Be aware that you are stepping among traps and that you are walking on the parapet of the city’s walls."
‘Walking on the parapet of the city walls’ clearly does not mean walking up and down on the crenellations. Nobody could possibly do that. It means walking on top of the city wall where the crenellations are. In other words, liable to be subjected to attack. Don’t make a mistake or they might take away your life.
The application of Mitzvah 263 is not found in the OT, not even in non-canonical Sirach.
So have you found an example of someone being refused medical treatment on the Sabbath? Once more, here is a link to a Jewish rabbinical source, which quoted Leviticus, Tractate Yoma of the Talmud and the Halakha, for my claim about what Jewish beliefs and practices are in this regard. To argue against that you need a counter-example, not just demand an example.
https://www.myjewishlearning.com/article/saving-a-life-pikuach-nefesh/
OldDogNewTricks,
"The word ἐπάλξεων means ‘breastwork’ or ‘battlement’"
You really should stop posting passages written in the modern Greek alphabet as if they are legit from the centuries before that alphabet was created.
BTW, you still have not cited any verses from the Old Testament that says that you can work on a sick person on the sabbath. So just admit that there are no verses that allow that.
Since you like to translate the Bible to spport your opinions maybe you should just write a new version and you can include all of your views. You can throw in some new stories.
The Septuagint transcriptions all use the modern alphabet. The originals do not. If you really have a problem with that,then stop quoting the scriptures in English. But your real problem is being unable to answer any counter-arguments and this is the best you can do.
I do not need to cite any verses from the Old Testament to that effect. I have repeatedly given the Jewish understanding of the matter. But you are unable to answer that either and this is the best you can do. As I said long ago, you have negligible understanding of the subject matter you claim expertise in.
I do not translate the Bible. I reference the Bible to support my opinions along with copious links to back me up. While you ... what is it you do again other than spout unsupported and unsupportable claims that have been knocked down over and over again? The large majority of my arguments have simply gone unanswered by you. It is clear you just want to claim victory on something ... anything ... and disregard all the losses. No luck in that department so far.
OldDogNewTricks,
We (at least I am) are discussing what is and is not in the Bible. I don't give a rat's ass about your appeal to authority about what the Jews' understanding is. The fact is that there is not one verse in the Old Testament that says that it is OK to heal sick people on the sabbath. If there is then produce it in any variation of the English language. There is a ton of verses that plainly state that no work is allowed on the sabbath. It does not give exceptions.
If you have access to the Septuagint originals then produce them. I am interested in that kind of stuff so maybe you can toss a bone my way?
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