In the bible there are multiple prophecies that get fulfilled (such as book of isaiah predicting Cyrus or Jesus predicting the destruction of jerusalem and its temple) occam's razor states that the simplest explanation is the most likely to be correct, the simplest explanation for these fulfilled prophecies is that the bible is most likely the word of god, so isn't it most likely that the bible is the word of God
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Please answer
Ask21771,
"Please answer"
Even the Bible says that people shouldn't beieve in prophecies. So if that is the case then not one single biblical prophecy is applicable to our current time period.
Deuteronomy 18:20-22 (TLB) = "20 But any prophet who falsely claims that his message is from me shall die. And any prophet who claims to give a message from other gods must die.’ 21 If you wonder, ‘How shall we know whether the prophecy is from the Lord or not?’ 22 this is the way to know: If the thing he prophesies doesn’t happen, it is not the Lord who has given him the message; he has made it up himself. You have nothing to fear from him."
Since all of the biblical "prophets" are long dead their prophecies are now meaningless because the ones you might think will happen never happened during their lifetimes. Therefore, by the biblical standard such prophecies are just bull shit.
Firstly Occam's razor (or Ockham's razor) is a principle from philosophy. Suppose there exist two explanations for an occurrence. In this case the one that requires the least speculation is usually better. Another way of saying it is that the more assumptions you have to make, the more unlikely an explanation. Occam's razor applies especially in the philosophy of science, but also more generally.
So no, the claim that prophesy has been fulfilled and a supernatural deity is the cause is not the simplest explanation, as it has no explanatory power at all, and thus requires multiple assumptions.
Any natural material explanation by definition requires less assumptions than an omnipotent supernatural deity being the cause, that's axiomatic.
Lastly even assuming these events were predicted as described, they could be broad claims that had a high probability of coming true in some sense, but it doesn't really matter, people predict 6 exact numbers in lotteries all the time, this isn't prophesy is it? You'll need something more tangible than an unlikely claim we can't verify, broadly coming true and being seemingly unlikely. Besides other religions make identical claims.
Hey, I’m Jewish, and I’m telling you this now: we’re damn good storytellers! Just look at Shemot, with Moshe and the parting of the Sea of Reeds! An enslaved people, freed from HaShem! In truth, it’s not so sweat, G-d didn’t seam to mind their enslavemeng for quite some time. Last time I believed this shit - okay, not believed, considered, was the day AFTER my bat mitzvah. It all wend downhill from there, now I’m a happy little atheist with no regrets!
P.S., my Dad, who tried to be Orthodox once, is obviously not happy with me, hehe! But we still talk and love each other, so no worries.
That didn't answer my question
No, the simplest explanation is more likely that the prophecies were not fulfilled and the bible is not the word of god.
But these prophecies were fulfilled
That would require objective evidence, do you have any?
However your problems are just beginning. For the sake of argument let's assume every single prediction could be objectively verified and the outcome. Now you have events that seem to defy probability, but for which no rational explanation can be given.
.
Assuming, again for the sake of argument, that the last part is also true. Now you have unexplained events, you make no rational assertion based on not knowing something. This isa common logical fallacy called argumentum ad ignorantiam.
BTW look how many assumptions we had to make to even get to that fallacy, Occam's razor states the more assumptions you have to make the less likely something is to be true.
If you apply Occam's razor properly to the bible then it definitely doesn't validate prophesy, quite the opposite.
Please explain how Isaiah predicts Cyrus (who the fuck is Cyrus? Or are you talking about Miley Cyrus?), Hey-soos, and the destruction of the Jury's Salem.
rmfr
arakish,
"(who the fuck is Cyrus?)"
Cyrus was the Persian (Babylonian) king who ruled the whole world. He set the Israelites free (like Moses) and led them back to the Promised Land and built them a temple. He was also supposed to destroy Babylon. He was Yahweh's best buddy.
https://www.biblegateway.com/quicksearch/?search=cyrus&version=KJV;CEV;T...
You know that Exodus is a myth right? Prominent archaeologists have studied the region for decades and no evidence has been found that Hebrews lived in Egypt in any significant numbers, as slaves or otherwise.
This is the problem with your unevidenced assertion that biblical prophesy has been fulfilled, is that as always it involves unevidenced assumptions.
What does Occam's razor say about assumptions?
Diotrephes: "Cyrus was the Persian (Babylonian) king who ruled the whole world."
If he ruled the whole world, then how come no history I ever took ever mentioned him?
rmfr
arakish,
"If he ruled the whole world, then how come no history I ever took ever mentioned him?"
Aren't you from one of those pre-historic Carolina States? Do they even have schools there?
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cyrus_the_Great
Cyrus was a mean dude but his son conquered Egypt, Nubia, and part of Libya. So he didn't rule the whole world but a good chunk of it. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cyrus_the_Great#/media/File:Persia-Cyrus2-...
Ezra 1:2 (CEV) = "I am King Cyrus of Persia. The Lord God of heaven, who is also the God of Israel, has made me the ruler of all nations on earth. And he has chosen me to build a temple for him in Jerusalem, which is in Judah. The Lord God will watch over and encourage any of his people who want to go back to Jerusalem and help build the temple."
The Bible does contain some BS about Cyrus. But I wonder if some of the deeds attributed to the Moses character were not actually done by Cyrus.
@ Diotrephes
Or perhaps he was such an insignificant dweeb that I don't remember him?
rmfr
arakish,
Well he was before our time. Those old guys were really something to be able to conquer so much territory with so few troops and logistical support and weapons. I suppose it's human nature to act like sheep when a few bad guys ride into town.
EDIT:
Mon, 12/10/2018 - 17:46 arakish
"Please explain how Isaiah predicts Cyrus (who the fuck is Cyrus? Or are you talking about Miley Cyrus?), Hey-soos, and the destruction of the Jury's Salem."
Sheldon...Ok, made me larf now, people staring etc...
Kudos...
Edit as my post gives no clue who I responded to now, given the capricious way posts are inserted after the fact.
I love this site, and the moderators do a fabulous job, but I must say I think that posts inserted in chronological order would make conversations a lot easier to follow. A hyperlink to the post responded to inserted when people hit the respond button maybe?
@ Sheldon
Sheldon, you should be ashamed of doing such in a public place. I thought you learned manners better than that...
rmfr
Sheldon: "A hyperlink to the post responded to inserted when people hit the respond button maybe?"
That is a wonderful idea. Kudos on thinking of it. Maybe they can do something like that.
Kewl.
rmfr
Ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ........ "The simplest answer is a magical, non-corporal, invisible, omniscient, existent being that lives in a timeless, space-less environment while it creates universes and then intervenes in that universe in magical and unmemorable ways. (Cog's Shovel Applied)
*Right, that is the simplest explanation ! It's just so damn obvious. You don't even need Occan's razor, unless of course some idiot comes along and asks you "Where did your god come from, or who created it?" Then you can just cut that question right out. Obviously there must be a first cause and your God is the simplest answer. Anyone would have to be a moron to tell you that you can not simply assert a god into existence. Look at the facts. Everything has to come from some place and the Blue Universe Creating Bunnies do not have a holy book. The Christian God is the obvious answer if for no other reason than the fact that all other Gods are just made up by men and false. We can use Occam's razor to cut them away as well. They just don't make sense. People who assert other gods exist can't prove it. Besides other gods don't have disciples that died for their truth. This is just so frigging obvious. If it was not absolutely true a quarter of the population of the world would not be believing in it. We can use Occam's razor to cut away the other 3/4 of the population who believe in that Allah God, Hindu Gods, Buddhist, Taoist, Jain, and the rest. They are all just false. Your god 'IS' the easiest and simplest answer so it must be true according to Occam's razor. Well...... unless....... we..... we....... just don't need magical creator beings. No! That's silly. OF COURSE WE NEED MAGICAL CREATOR BEINGS. HOW ELSE WOULD WE GET HERE?
EXCELLENT POST! YOU REALLY SHOWED THEM DUMB ATHEISTS!!!!
Im not a Christian I'm trying to disprove Christianity
Then you are tilting at windmills; trying to do the impossible.
Ask21771,
"Im not a Christian I'm trying to disprove Christianity"
Christianity is just the belief that a Jewish zombie will save you from your sins. Have you ever seen any zombies other than the ones depicted in movies?
@ Ask2177
Its easy to be correct and prophesy when you have 100% hindsight and a century or so of tradition and stories to guide you...or haven't you figured out that the later portions of your book were all based on the earlier portions and written to fit the prophesies not the other way around?
I know that one of the theories is that the prophecies were written during or after the events they talked about took place but that's not the simplest explanation
@ Ask 21771
Yes, yes it is. And it is not a theory: Isaiah was written down about 450 BC. Well known story to a select group of people known as Israelites/Hebrews, it is their folklore. Like we know Hansel and Gretel, Golden Rule etc.in our cultures
125 - 160 CE the manuscripts about the birth of the predicted (prophesied) Messiah are written down in Greek. The authors of which had full access (and knowledge) of the previous written folklore contained in the previous books of the bible. Even errors in translation were "adjusted" to confirm prophecy.
That makes in my opinion the most likely scenario and simplest explanation.
So you’re likely dealing with a Christian who’s using the prophecy argument? I say use the great answers above, or just don’t deal with the Christian.
I dont think they were. For instance the book of Daniel is not a book of prophecy as much as it was a garbled commentary of past events. The prophesied messiah never turned up and the Babylonian king did not conquer Ethiopia or Egypt and died at home not in Palestine.
(returning to work now...expect delays for any responses...I prophesize my own return)
RE: PROPHECIES - Prophecies after the event: An example of an alleged after-the-fact prophecy is the Little Apocalypse recorded in the Olivet Discourse of the Gospel of Mark. It predicts the siege of Jerusalem and destruction of the Jewish Temple at the hands of the Romans in 70 AD. Most mainstream New Testament scholars consider this to be an ex eventu (foretelling after the event), as are many of the prophecies in the Old Testament such those of Daniel 11.[66][67][68][69][70][71][72]
Another example is Isaiah's prophecy about Cyrus the Great. Traditionally, the entire book of Isaiah is believed to pre-date the rule of Cyrus by about 120 years. These particular passages (Isaiah 40-55, often referred to as Deutero-Isaiah) are believed by most modern critical scholars to have been added by another author toward the end of the Babylonian exile (ca. 536 BC).[73] Whereas Isaiah 1-39 (referred to as Proto-Isaiah) saw the destruction of Israel as imminent, and the restoration in the future, Deutero-Isaiah speaks of the destruction in the past (Isa 42:24-25), and the restoration as imminent (Isaiah 42:1-9). Notice, for example, the change in temporal perspective from (Isaiah 39:6-7), where the Babylonian Captivity is cast far in the future, to (Isaiah 43:14), where the Israelites are spoken of as already in Babylon.[74]
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Criticism_of_the_Bible
USING YOUR SAME LOGIC - (Cog's Shovel) I predicted the World Trade Center in New York City would be attacked and destroyed on September 11, 2001. I saw it in a vision. Two great birds flew into the Towers, one after the other. The birds breathed fire and cause the building to melt into their own basements. This vision was clouded in darkness and so we may never know what actually happened.
NO BIBLICAL PROPHECY HAS EVER BEEN SUBSTANTIATED. NONE.
Is ex eventu a simpler explanation thand god
An unevidenced deity using unexplained supernatural powers to shape events all unseen is demonstrably the most complex explanation. Occam's razor states something becomes less likely the more assumptions you are required to make.
I need make no assumptions at all to know that extremely unlikely predictions can come true all the time.
Lotteries the world over are accurately predicted daily, against massive odds. This is not prophesy.
Do you know what a sharp shooter fallacy is, or selection bias?
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