I believe that's what death is. Like dreamless sleep, or blacked out with no NDE no nothing.
With the many people who do experience an NDE there's many who experience nothing at all when dead for a little while. I'm sure this will attract Christians, I don't care.
They are the ones who have burden of proof.
Thanks For Reading.
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@Fievel Mousekewitz: Lets be fair here. NDE has nothing at all to do with Christianity. It is often put forward as evidence for the existence of a soul or some form of afterlife. Science tells us it is the evidence of a brain shutting down.
In my opinion the NDE is the result of personal beliefs piled into a brain that is shutting down. Muslims have Muslim NDEs and Buddhists have Buddhist NDE.
In my mind the NDE and OBE are very similar experiences and I will connect them with Phantom Limb Syndrome and sleep paralysis. People who lose limbs will often continue experiencing the limb years and even a lifetime later. The brain creates itches, pains, and other sensations to convince the amputee that the arm is still there.
The same thing happens in an NDE or OBE. The OBE is characterized as a state of sleep paralysis. People report being awake but unable to move. This is exactly what happens in an OBE. The body separates from the brain, the switch is turned off. This is a safety feature built into brains. If we did not have that switch, we would have a dream about running and then wake up on the side of the road in the next city over. Our brains turn off our bodies during sleep to protect us from injury while dreaming.
What happens in the OBE is that a degree of consciousness in maintained during the brain body separation. When the brain does not receive input from the body's senses, just like in phantom limb syndrome, it creates them. People experience their bodies rising out of their bodies. They experience walking or floating about but it is all a projection of the brain.
In the NDE, the very same thing is happening. The brain is shutting down. The body brain switch is turned off while the brain also struggles to stay conscious. Maintaining a degree of consciousness after the body brain switch is shut down results in the OBE as well as the NDE. In both cases your personal beliefs will play a huge role in the experience.
I have actually practiced OBE for over 40 years. I have read all the bullshit accounts on the internet. I actually believed a whole lot of the woo woo at one point. In my mind, the NDE and the OBE are completely natural experiences. They occur naturally in a brain that is not receiving sensory input from a body. This has been confirmed in isolation tank studies. (The source of our thoughts become misidentified as something outside of ourselves.)
The really short response to any of this woo woo is that if you are having thoughts of any kind, they are being generated from your own brain., NDE, OBE, Phantom Limb, Dislocation of Thoughts, Disassociation Disorder (People who can not feel their limbs thought the limbs are there) and the rest. It's all, just the way the brain works.
I believe then my brain is having problems letting go, as I blacked out from synthetic marijuana awhile back and had this odd dream about how god is real. I still find no evidence that a god could actually exist, if there's scientific evidence I am open to it.
I lived most of my life believing in a god, but recently started asking questions why this and why that, or how this and how that. There's scientific answers to most if not all the biblical stories.
Turns out the plagues were mostly weather phenomenon and fully explained.
Ultimately NDE's are just in a person's head, and that's what I probably experienced when I blacked out on synthetic marijuana. When I had a seizure once, I remembered a big fat nothing. It was no more then missing time. No memory of anything.
I suspect that's what death is too, but I've never died so I will never know what really happens.
In any-case I think you are correct.
Synthetic Marijuanna, especially the stuff you buy blackmarket can be nasty shit. Also if you are still in school and generally under the age of 25 you should stay away from pot in general because it absolutely does reduce your ability to learn.
I have no idea if you use synthetic marijuana on the regular of it was a one time thing for you, but, I recommend sticking to the normal marijuana if at all possible. (I know retail/medical is not available in all states yet.) But I think it is something like 70+% of all americans have access to eithir retail or medical marijuana within a 4 hour drive.
I live in Colorado, but I know our neighbors to the north east, Nebraska are very anti marijuana. For a while they would try to bust anyone driving across the border with pot.
Then they realized the pure size and scale and scope of it made that job impossible. Now as long as you do not give them a reason to search your car, and you are under an ounce, (no intent to distribute) they barely care, hit you with a fine, (if they did search and find your pot,) that is significantly less then how much it would of cost to just buy slightly under an ounce. All the state patrol cops on interstate 76 just get annoyed if you make it so obvious you have pot they have to write you a ticket and do the paperwork. Say you do not have pot, and if they actually did search your car and find it, say you did not have possession of that bag (backpack? 100%. They cannot prove otherwise and that you lied to an officer.
It is kind of like flying out of DIA (denver international airport.) They don't even give out tickets or summon police if you were dumb enough to have airport security find your pot in your bag (they do not even look for it!) They just ask you to throw it away. Normal pot is literally less of a "big deal" then speeding. Just make sure you are never high when you drive, then you can get a DUI and that is a big deal, and it should be.
"Synthetic Marijuanna, especially the stuff you buy blackmarket can be nasty shit. Also if you are still in school and generally under the age of 25 you should stay away from pot in general because it absolutely does reduce your ability to learn."
I disagree there as Bill Gates wasn't even 25 yet when he was smoking pot. He smoked throughout most his adolescent years straight into collage. He turned out rich and very successful. I don't know if he still smokes, but I sure did from 19 on up to now at 49.
I just hated school, that is the reason I had such low grades, that and ADHD (ADD)
What I know about computers I picked up on my own, running an out of date system now, they came out with these things in like 2010. Correction, 2015. I have 6378s in this thing.
Dual Opteron G34. My first custom build was a 486 DX2 66MHZ system.
But in any case, that's more like propaganda to keep marijuana illegal. Most children have no more problems than any others even if they smoke pot. Not days kids are acquiring vapes, which isn't very good for them. Some kid asked me to but him cigars the other day.
I said a firm and solid NO.
As for the marijuana (Cannabis) laws, it will be legal someday, just a matter of time. And I have conditions which I could qualify in my state for a medical marijuana card. They cost like 300 or 350 though, and that's quite a bit for a person on disability.
And then they want 45 - 65 for an 1/8th in most dispensaries. I can get it cheaper off the streets, had offers for 75 a 1/4 already. I'll get it off the streets way before I go to a dispensary at the prices some of these places want to charge for it.
Anyways, I don't want to leave a disagree, or an agree, as I agree with most stuff. But I disagree with the statement you made in the beginning.
Fine to disagree, these are debate forums after all :)
First off: I am a big fan of pot. I take it to help me relax during my "down" time. My job can be very stressful and pot to me is one of the very best ways to let loose (far better than alcohol imho.) It is too bad this stuff is so expensive. At least medical marijuana is very cheap in Colorado. I can get quarter of an ounce of 24% THC flower on medical side for 20-30 bucks usually if I wait around for a "sale." Top shelf is 30-40 in same scenario. Especially during this time of the year, (when all the outdoor harvest floods the market.)
To me it is highly hypocritical to demonize pot, but let alcohol flow freely in almost any and all social situations (as long as 21+,) To me alcohol, is a substantially worse "drug" than pot. Especially if pot is ingested orally, (smoking 5-10 giant joints a day, every day will trash your lungs!)
As big as a fanboy of pot I am, I do not let the industry convince me that pot is purely a good thing, to be enjoyed in which-ever-way as much as anyone want. No matter how you spin it, if you ingest burning herb into your lungs constantly day after day that is going to be bad for your lungs. Also, I have seen substantial studies on how pot might affect the growing mind. If you want, I can see if I can find the studies I read again and link them here. And certainly learning while currently high on pot is greatly diminished, any regular pot user can attest to that.
But I do fully agree with you pot has been heavily demonized and vilified. Essentially it was made illegal all those years ago to make it easier to arrest certain people, then it turned into a media thing, where even presidents of the US ran their platform on "tough on drugs," and pot got swept up into that.
I stand by that: off the street, "synthetic" marijuana is something you want to avoid, unless you REALLY trust your dealer, (and his dealer, etc) All too often that stuff is cut with stuff you definitely do not want to be taking. (Cut with some hard stuff in effort to create a greater demand for the "synthetic" marijuana.)
Whenever someone is discussing death and/or what happens next, I like to bring up this quote by Mark Twain: “I do not fear death. I had been dead for billions and billions of years before I was born, and had not suffered the slightest inconvenience from it.”
Before one is brought up into this world, you of course experience nothing. Nothing is what I believe death is too, and there's nothing to fear from death. If there was a god, there would still be nothing to fear from death as it is all in how one lives their life.
But there's no actual proof a god exists not even Wikipedia puts god or gods as being real. It only places it as a belief that if one behaves they go to a heaven. It is balderdash there's nothing after death. If there is, I will be pleasantly surprised.
There is no 'you' to experience nothing, just like after you die.
The collection of matter that is currently producing your consciousness defined as 'you' had no existence before you were born, and the collection of matter that is currently producing your consciousness defined as 'you' will cease to exist when you die.
Death, just like before you existed, is not like a blackout, nor is it any experience at all.
Well of course I wont experience anything after death, as death is nothing. I just cease to exist.
I'm fine with that, life is long enough.
This has stuck in my mind ever sinceI first heard it, about 40 years ago:
From an ancient tomb on the Via Apia, not far from Rome
"I was not
I am not
I don't care"
I'm saying this as an atheist: First of all there's no evidence where there should be for God. Second, God doesn't have a brain or neurons - he's immaterial: not made of matter or energy - so how can he think thoughts or have knowledge? God directly contradicts science: There's no evidence where there should be that you an think thoughts without a brain/neurons. He, God, wouldn't have the knowledge to resurrect Jesus and wouldn't be able to think of how to resurrect Jesus. Also there is no scientific consensus that resurrections are possible: After billions of dead bodies there should be by now. The resurrection therefore is clearly fiction just like God is fiction. Believing in God is worse than believing in Santa Claus. At least Santa has a brain/neurons. Third, Out of Body Experiences (OBE's) have been disproven by a study where there was a giant playing card in the room: The patients having the OBE's said there wasn't a playing card in the room. This disproves OBE's. With Near Death Experiences (NDEs) 1) They have all the qualities of dreams: one example was someone flying on the wing of a giant butterfly. I doubt anyone reading this believes in giant butterflies. Another NDE e.g. was someone who went up to the clouds and met a "sister" that they had never met in real life. How did he know it was his sister? He didn't. NDEs have all the qualities of dreams. 2) There is no evidence to show people are having the NDE's when the brain is dead. They could of had the NDE when the brain was alive. So the person likely wasn't dead and so was just having a dream. 3) NDEs aren't consistent with each other - they would go to the same place all the time if they were true. 4) The people experiencing the NDEs (dreams) don't bring back any scientific or mathematical evidence, like an equation, that they were in the afterlife. Something that they couldn't have known otherwise. Conclusion: All the evidence overwhelming suggests that Near Death Experiences are just dream-hallucinations.
@Simon. I've already tried. Mousekewitz is as ignorant as a theist when it comes to actually understanding the position of atheism and now it looks like he has a fellow conspirator in Tom Fearnley. It's embarrassing that people like these call themselves Atheist. Hang in there Mr. Moon. Perhaps they will learn the difference between making a claim and the evidence for a claim at some point in the future.
Look man, I always post an agree on your posts, as I do agree.
And I have admitted my brain doesn't want to let go. But I know there's very little to no proof of any god existing. I wish there was one in a way, but that is fantasy.
@Fievel: Thank you for the likes. You are absolutely correct in the assertion that there is little to no "good" (I added the "good.") proof (evidence) of any god existing. That is not the same thing as going on a rant and ASSERTING no gods exist. It is not the same thing as "I won't experience anything after death, death is nothing." Assuming the "Nothing" whatever that is, before death is exactly the same as the "Nothing" after death is just another unfounded assertion. (HOW WOULD YOU KNOW SUCH STUFF?) It is the theists that are supposed to be making all the unfounded claims, not the atheists.
"But that is fantasy." A Black Swan Fallacy. Just because you have not seen it does not make it fantasy. You are using the same fallacies to support your position as the Christians use to support theirs. Your assertions are fallacious. They can not be demonstrated any more than a theists assertions can be demonstrated.
I don't know if there's nothing after death, I assume it's like a dreamless blackout. Like when I use to have seizures awhile back. There's little to no proof of an afterlife, but don't quote me on that, I have never died to know for sure.
So you are correct, I can not know that.
As a child, each night I would usually fall into a deep sleep. The next thing of which I would be aware was being woken by my mother the next morning. No experience I remembered. (However ,I almost certainly had some REM sleep)
About ten years ago, once only , I dreamed I was dying and that I actually died. It was a terrifying dream, which I still remember ;
It was black, I had the sensation of falling into blackness. Mercifully, I woke up at that point. I was deeply distressed. That is not what I think death is; I think that was the closest my brain could get to 'nothingness'.
It is my understanding that NDE's are caused by the brain, possibly if death seems imminent. I don't know at what point we are dead. I pretty much accept death has occurred when no brain activity is being observed. . The simplest explanation ;.available empirical evidence.(ie no evidence of life) However, I don't know absolutely . I MIGHT be wrong, .
I think out of body experiences falls under the same broad heading. Not as sure , because OBE experiences occur under different circumstances. I've come across the claim that with training, out of body experiences can occur while one is conscious, and may be controlled.
I've only come across two individuals who claimed they could have OBE whilst conscious, and control them. Neither were able to pass a very simple test. I love the idea, and would love to be able to do it. It would be a fantastic tool , but for good AND ill, so probably best not.
LOADS OF UNFOUNDED ASSERTIONS:
1. How do you know where "God Should be?"
2. God does not have a brain or neurons. (Addressed in the previous post when God came to earth on numerous occasions.)
3. God is immaterial? Then what are you talking about? How do you know anything at all about this immaterial thing? Do you have an immaterial detector?
4. "He's not made of matter or energy." You got that from the immaterial detector I assume.
5. "God directly contradicts science:" If God could contradict science then it would be real. (Think about it.) Science has nothing at all to do with god. (Null Hypothesis.) It is the person making the claim that has the burden of proof.
6. "God, wouldn't have the knowledge to resurrect Jesus and wouldn't be able to think of how to resurrect Jesus. " Why did you assume the resurrection required Knowledge?
7. "Also there is no scientific consensus that resurrections are possible" That would be completely incorrect. We bring people back from the dead every day. Amazing things are happening in cryonics. And then there is cloning. Mostly this hinges on one's definition of resurrection. You should probably be more specific.
8. "Believing in God is worse than believing in Santa Claus." How would you know. Billions of people all over the world believe in Gods. What could possibly happen if they all began to believe in different versions of Santa? Do you really think things would be much different? Why do you think so? Instead of the Crusades we might have had the Rudolph wars. Can you demonstrate your assertion?
9. "At least Santa has a brain/neurons." I have already demonstrated, through lore, that the concept of God is one that also has a brain and neurons.
10. "Out of Body Experiences (OBE's) have been disproved by a study where there was a giant playing card in the room." OBE's are a natural phenomena. Anyone can have an OBE experience in my opinion. I have been able to induce them since I was in my early 20's. They have been and continue to be a subject of scientific study. https://www.oberf.org/ The OBE is a biological brain state experience and well grounded in research as such. What you are attempting to refer to is the "remote viewing" BS that remains largely unsubstantiated.
11. "There is no evidence to show people are having the NDE's " You just gave two examples of people having NDEs before you made this stupid comment. People are having NDE experiences. There is no evidence it is anything but a brain state.
12. "So the person likely wasn't dead and so was just having a dream." Well. Sort of. Consciousness in the NDE or OBE state is not quite sleep. They tend to occur in the transitional phase between wakefulness and sleep. The consciousness seems to still be active while the body has gone into sleep paralysis. This is also were Lucid Dreaming seems to occur. Research is ongoing and interesting. https://www.livescience.com/19106-death-experiences-lucid-dreams.html NOTE: In the article - PEOPLE ARE TAUGHT TO DO THIS. It is something that can be taught.
13. " The people experiencing the NDEs (dreams) don't bring back any scientific or mathematical evidence, like an equation, that they were in the afterlife." YOU ARE CORRECT. All the WOOWOO associated with NDE and OBE appears to be nothing but bullshit. As I said, I have been able to do this since I was in my 20's. It really does feel like being outside the body and moving about. Consciousness feels to be located outside the self. OBE and NDE are not the only time this happens. Phantom Limb syndrome and disassociation disorders cause the same thing to happen. In some psychological disorders (Polyplopic) people can see themselves outside of them-self. NOTHING IS "DISPROVED." THIS ALL HAPPENS AND IT IS BEING STUDIED. AS FAR AS WE KNOW, THERE IS NOTHING SPIRITUAL OR MYSTICAL ABOUT IT.
14. All the evidence overwhelming suggests that Near Death Experiences are just dream-hallucinations. (Overly simplistic but generally on target. Again, dreaming and NDE and OBE are not exactly the same. They are different brain states.) If you made the assertion that OBE or NDE are no indication of an afterlife, you would have been more on target. There is no indication that they are anything but a "brain state."
Fievel: I believe that's what death is. Like dreamless sleep, or blacked out with no NDE no nothing.
Have you ever had a general anesthetic? I think that's as close to death as you can get and still come back. With regular sleep, even very deep sleep, you still have a sense of time elapsed. But with anesthetic, you go off and on like a light with no sense of time in between or any perception of blackness, etc. At least that's been my experience. It was probably Michael Jackson's experience too when his quack doctor used anesthetic to cure his insomnia.
The end of a long week and a bottle or two of good Pinot Noir or a Glenmorangie. You wake in the computer chair and say to yourself "When the fuck did I post that!?". Just saying.
"Blacked Out With No Experience Of Any Kind"
Sounds a lot like a night I had on Absinthe... never again!