How is it possible that all non-living mechanically engineered objects (cars , computers ,toys etc.) were intelligently designed by living
subjects ( rational beings ) yet somehow all living subjects were randomly chanced into existence by non-intelligent non-living objects (molecules, swirling gases ,quarks, nothing at all ) . That is one of the many reasons for me why the atheistic pill is difficult to get down . Atheism is not consistent with the way the world actually is . The chasm from non-existence to existence ,non-life to life , non-intelligence to intelligence is far too wide for my blind leap of faith to bridge . I just don't have enough faith to be an atheist ?
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Vochensmut, you wrote, “Atheism is not consistent with the way the world is.”
Are you sure you understand the definition of atheism? It has nothing to do with “the way the world is”. It is a response to one assertion - that god(s) exist. As an atheist, I reject that assertion.
In your OP, you did not mention if you believe in god(s). Do you? Because, based on what you’ve written, you could possibly believe that an advanced species created us and our world.
Thank you so much for your response . I believe I have a fairly good grasp of atheism having been in the atheist camp for a time .
Did you read my profile ? I am a committed Christian who at one time held to a view of reality called pantheism ( the belief that God is the sum of all things ) and atheism ( the belief that no God/gods exist ) . Atheism , pantheism , and theism are ways to interpret reality ( a
worldview) .
A world without God should display characteristics of a godless reality . A world where God actually does exist should
leave behind some fingerprints of God . I argue for those fingerprints because in our world ( which I'm thankful we both share) life does not spring from non-life as a normative regular occurrence . Since it is logically impossible for life to create itself (because one would have to exist prior to one's existence ) then if follows that life was generated from a living source because that is an observable norm on earth . I believe the living uncreated God who reveals himself through the visible order (physical universe) and the invisible order ( psychic reality) is "that..advanced species" who "created us and our world" .
@vochensmut
Atheism is not a worldview, it is a lack of belief in gods, that is it.
What objective evidence do you have any god exist?
"He who is a skeptic in one set of beliefs is a true believer in another set of beliefs" - Phillip Johnson
"Worldview", Webster's- A comprehensive conception or apprehension of the world especially from a specific standpoint.
The atheist's standpoint is materialism which is the predominant view of reality among atheists that the cosmos is all there ever was , is ,
and will be .
If atheism is simply a lack of belief in gods that informs me about the atheists state of mind ? So what ? That alone proves nothing , your
other belief system becomes what, what is driving your perception of reality ( which is another way to define a worldview) ? True atheism is the belief that there is no God .
Also , a lack of belief in gods puts one in the category of trees , rocks , and germs . They lack the same , so the conclusion is that it takes no brains to lack a belief in God . A true atheist believes that there is no God .
At this point stop calling yourself an atheist and admit your definition of atheism comports better within the agnostic's camp .
Another point to ponder is that if atheism means lacking a belief in God or gods then a glaring contradiction develops in that atheism becomes logically compatible with theism because atheism is true even if God exists ? How is that reasonable ?
Atheism is the belief that God does not exist and, is best defined by theism , the belief that a God or gods exist .
Would love to further dialogue with you on objective evidence for the existence of any god but first , what do you mean by God ? Thor, flying spaghetti monster , the God of the bible ? There is a huge difference between them and I don't believe in just any God but in that God who actually exists and makes sense of reality.
@ Vochensmut
Another theist word salad without the benefit of a decent dressing.
Then demonstrate its existence.
How about you demonstrate the existence of Absolutely Nothing since that is your starting point ?
Here is atheistic materialism's trinitarian creation story that requires proof as well, " In the beginning Absolutely Nothing by Chance
with a little Luck created everything ".
The demonstration of existence is all around you screaming out loudly there must be a God . If there's a universe there must be a universe maker who is outside the bounds of the universe . This stuff is so simple a child can understand it ? Are you also wondering " then , who made God " ? The Greeks had it right when they posited an Unmoved Mover , an Uncaused First Cause ?
The material world around you is an ongoing surround sound theatrical performance by the Great Artist .
Besides all that I can prove the existence of God using absolutely nothing .
@ Vochensmut
Word Salad, incoherency, specious claims then the kicker:
WUT?????
Ad hominem ad nauseam infinitum ,again .
I suspect you might be trolling, but why not: please show us how you can prove the existence of God using absolutely nothing.
Would like to up the ante , the existence of only one God can be proved beyond all reasonable doubt using absolutely nothing . This is what the
book of Christian theists claims when it says :
"For the invisible things of him are clearly seen ..." . The seeming paradox here is ," How can invisible things be clearly seen " ?
The argument is called The Something from Nothing Argument for the Existence of Only One God . Since the atheist community seems to make much ado about Absolutely Nothing it becomes vital to describe the attributes of such a "state" of affairs .
OK, let's see.
Yeah, that is what I thought.
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@Vochensmut
Are you going to post the proof or not?
Yes .
RE: absolutely nothing. "Please demonstrate the existence of absolutely nothing. "
The existence of absolutely nothing is not only difficult to prove but impossible because there is something . AbNthing is what the atheistic materialism worldview purports as the cause of everything . However , Absolutely Nothing or a null world is conceivable and would have definable attributes e.g. there would necessarily be only one AB and it would be an eternal unchanging state . Absolutely Nothing (AB) means the non-existence of the entire cosmos ,multiverses, God , quantum vacuums , i.e. zilch , nada , zero , and all that in the absolute . What makes more sense that no-one created everything with nothing or something created everything with nothing ?
That seems like a reckless postulate.
@Voch Re: "AbNthing is what the atheistic materialism worldview purports as the cause of everything ."
Dude, what in the great goobly-fucking-goop type of bull pancakes utter fruitloop nonsense gibberfuckjabber is that oozing from your questionable excuse of a thought organ???... AbNthing?... Atheistic materialism worldview?... What the.... *rubbing eyes*.... No way I can be reading that correctly... *shaking head in doubt*...
...*addressing forum*... Hey! Anybody else out there able to make heads or tails out of that clusterfuck-flavored word salad? Or did I miss a memo somewhere?
There is no Atheist World View. WTF are you on about now? Atheist are people who do not believe in Gods. The rejection of a God claim tells you nothing at all about what my WORLD VIEW is.
Demonstrate how you would conceive a null world, or nothing. without making it something? If nothing exists, it is something. You can either demonstrate what you are talking about or you can not. If you can, it is something and if you can't, there is no reason to assume anything called nothing exists.
We know something exists. We have no evidence at all for nothing.
There would be one AB and it would be eternal and unchanging? Why is eternal unchanging. That makes no sense.
Still we are in agreement. No one, no thing, no something, created everything from nothing assuming you are using the philosophical nothing cited above. As far as we know, that nothing exists as a concept only. The nothing we do know about is actually something. What we once believed to be nothing, turns out to be something. Now, science is apparently looking for the new nothing but has been unable to find it. With the discovery of the fifth force, not even the cosmos looks empty.
Care to list them and evidence that claim? I'm guessing not on your form so far. Why do theists think they can make sweeping unevidenced claims in tandem as if we won't notice, and when we point it out they just make another one and another one and so on...??
What objective evidence can you demonstrate for any deity or deities? Your reticence on this question, though typical, speaks volumes.
Just ask , like I said ,this stuff is so simple a child can understand stand .
@ Vochensmut
Word salad, ad hominem, nothing to evidence your claim....things are taking their usual course.
@Vochensmut: Are you able to demonstrate the existence of absolutely nothing or not? If it is so simple, please indicate how you know such a thing is real.
@Vochensmut: like I said ,this stuff is so simple a child can understand stand .
It only looks simple to you because you're looking at it from a distance as it flies far over your head.
No this is simply untrue. You even contradicted this claim by saying it's the predominant viewpoint, as this proves there are atheists who don't hold to it.
You are also trying to reverse the burden of proof here, since we know as an objective fact that the material world exists, please demonstrate some objective evidence for whatever you're adding to it here. Also properly and accurately define what your claiming exists outside of the material world, and be sure this evidence and definition has explanatory powers, and that your claims are falsifiable. Otherwise you're simply talking about unicorn husbandry.
Wrong again, it precisely informs you they lack a belief that any deity or deities exist. Beyond that until an atheist tells you about their views you are simply making bigoted assumptions, since atheism demands literally NOTHING else.
Nonsense.
Agnosticism is a statement about knowledge, atheism is a statement about the lack of a single belief, they're not mutually exclusive.
Do you normally believe all claims you can know nothing about? At least atheists generally apply an objective unbiased open minded standard to all beliefs. Unlike theists who make one closed minded biased exception for their own belief without being able to demonstrate any objective evidence.
That's a moronic misnomer, based on your imbecilic attempts to redefine the dictionary.
Then demonstrate sufficient objective evidence for it, and stop this moronic buffoonery of lying about what atheism means.
It baffles me that religious apologists waste their time with the asinine nonsense of denying the dictionary.
Do they really think they can set an arbitrary standard for atheists that they don't apply to the things they disbelieve are real?
Why would that be I wonder, or do these idiots believe all claims until they're proved wrong?
If so, I have a large bridge to sell you.
Re: Vochensmut and his lack of originality, along with his total lack of knowing what atheism is.
Yaaaaaaaaaaaawn... *long extended standing stretch*.... *scratching belly with fingertips*.... Well, I must say, this has become quite tedious rather quickly. Time to go find something more exciting to do. Hmmm... Watching paint dry is always a fun pastime... *wandering off down hallway*...
I think it's the other way around Tin-Man . I hold that your definition is patently false and contradicts itself and that a true atheist believes that there is no God . The "new" definition has more in common with agnosticism than classic atheism .
If theism is belief in the existence of a god or gods then the antithesis is the belief that there is no god or gods . To say that atheism is
" a lack of belief in a god or gods " informs one about the atheist's state of mind only and not about the existence of a god or gods ? Furthermore , rocks , algae , and germs lack a belief in the existence of a god or gods which proves that brains are not involved when it comes to atheism . No, a true atheist has the guts to say " I believe there is no God " .
@Vochensmut
I strongly believe there is no god. But it is just a belief, like yours, not evidenced.
Yes I am an atheist, but me saying that does not make me an atheist. More like anti theist.
I am an atheist also because I am not theist. Just like you (hopefully!) disbelieve any other unevidenced idea, just I believe in 1 less than you do.
For a vast majority of time when we encounter someone else's ideas, written or spoken, we decide if want to "act" on those ideas. Typically before we take action we decide if we want to, if we should. I personally require some sort of real evidence (beyond just more words and written things) to decide to do the action.
Worse still for the various "god" ideas, billions of people have been trying to actually "evidence" their ideas, for thousands of years. And they have utterly failed, and only lost lots of ground over those 1000's of years, even if the religion overall adherent numbers went up with human population growth.
RE: The "NO TRUE ATHEIST FALLACY." "a true atheist believes that there is no God." Contend what you like. You will be at odds with every atheist on the site. You are constructing a STRAW MAN FALLACY by defining my atheism for me. It would be no different if I asserted all true theists are fucking assholes. You have made an assertion; "All true atheists believe god does not exist." Please demonstrate your assertion to be true in light of the fact that I am a "true atheist" and I have no idea at all whether your god exists or not until you clearly define it.
You have no understanding at all of what "AGNOSTICISM." is. A = without. Gnosis = Knowledge. Agnosticism is about knowledge and not belief. Knowledge is a subset of belief. The two terms are not mutually exclusive. An Agnostic Christian (ala Pascal's Wager) does not know that god or Gods exist but believes anyway. An agnostic atheist sees no evidence for a god or Gods and so opts not to believe. Atheism is about belief. Agnosticism is about knowledge.
You are DEMONSTRABLY wrong.
@Vochensmut
Why would I care what position you hold on what I believe or disbelieve as if I don't accurately know that myself, and when your position absurdly contradicts the dictionary?
Do you people think we won't notice how much energy you expend trying to insist atheism needs to disprove the existence of something that no one can demonstrate a shred of objective evidence for?
Especially since you disbelieve in all the deities atheists do except one. And don't apply that standard of proof to any of the others yourself.
What's more I'll bet a years wages you can't list 6 beliefs that have nothing to do with your religious beliefs, that you hold without any objective evidence at all. So another biased double standard.
Everytime apologists do this we just point and laugh.
@ Vochensmut
"No, a true atheist has the guts to say " I believe there is no God " ."
Please define "a true atheist".
Because of 99% of all atheists I have encountered, only the ignorantly arrogant would make such a claim. Most of us atheists live in a world where bullshit and word salad carry zero weight, we just request proof or evidence.
Personally I find it amusing to witness a theist attempting to redefine what an atheist it. It is like watching a cockroach drowning in a toilet bowl.
RE: "Atheism , pantheism , and theism are ways to interpret reality ( a worldview) ."
WOW! You are completely clueless. You have no grasp at all of what atheism is. NONE. The belief that no god exists is an "Anti-theist" position and not an "Atheist" position. For those of us who do argue that "No god exists" thus adopting the anti-theist position, do not do so without an exact definition of the god less we look utterly and completely stupid. In short. some atheists are anti-theist in regard to some definitions of god. I think the longer you are an atheist the more gods you learn to debunk and the more anti-theistic you can risk being without sounding utterly and completely stupid. Not all atheists are anti-theists.
I would assert that the majority of atheists don't give a shit about religion and do not want to waste the effort to debunk all the bullshit religious claims.. AND THEY DON'T HAVE TO. The burden of proof is on the theists. All an atheist needs to do is ask for evidence of the God claim. When there is no good evidence, that which asserted without evidence can be rejected without evidence. Atheism is the simple rejection of a God claim. IT IS NOT A WORLD VIEW and IT SAYS NOTHING AT ALL ABOUT THE EXISTENCE OR NON-EXISTENCE OF A GOD. ATHEISM SAYS NOTHING AT ALL ABOUT THE EXISTENCE OR NON-EXISTENCE OF A GOD. NOTHING! YOU DO NOT, AND APPARENTLY, NEVER HAVE, UNDERSTOOD ATHEISM.
I will give you a simple analogy, see if you can follow along.
If I tell you the number of stars in the sky are even, do you believe me? How in the hell could I know such information. It is most reasonable to assert, "I do not believe you."
I have not made the assertion that the number of stars are odd. I DID NOT SAY THAT. I only said, "I DO NOT BELIEVE YOU." This is reasonable as I have only made an assertion and I have not demonstrated how I could possibly know the number of stars are even.
NOW FOLLOW ALONG - Could the number of stars be even. YES! Could there be some sort of godlike being YES! All and atheist asks you to do is define that god like being so they can believe in it too. If you are told that your god is not believable, it is because you have committed fallacious reasoning or you are relying on erroneous assertions. Your god, in fact, may not exist. Even if it could exist, there is probably no good reason to make the assumption that it does. Or better put, there is no reason to assume it does until you provide us with a good reason.
ATHEISM does not assert, NO GODS EXIST. Atheism HAS NO WORLD VIEW. ATHEISM is the simple rejection of a religious claim, "GOD EXISTS." Atheists are not asserting that God does not exist. They make the assertion that you have not presented sufficient evidence for the God claim you are making.
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