Is it possible for a god to be both merciful and Just at the same time. Apologists found many ways to reconcile these two. Is it really possible for any being having this opposing trait?
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No. Justice is taken in the absence of mercy. Justice itself is defined as fair or it would not be just. In the face of fairness, doing that which is fair, any mercy at all would render the Justice being done unfair and therefore not justice at all.
Looked at another way. If someone is deserving of a just consequence for their actions and then mercy is given, for the consequence to be just, all future consequences must contain the same element of mercy. As a result, we no longer have an act of mercy but a new level of justice. To give only one person mercy, negates justice. Give everyone mercy and we simply change the definition of that which is just.
that sounds good, u mean Justice is intrinsically a MERCYLESS action. They are mutually exclusive. In another word, if there is mercy, justice is compromised.
@DRKFUTURE: Justice is intrinsically a MERCYLESS: Not at all. Take a look at the laws that confine people to lock up institutions. The law clearly states 1. "No cruel or unusual punishments. And 2. "People should be held in the least restrictive environments." These are merciful rules applied to the law. Justice can contain mercy - We are not killing people for stealing a loaf of bread. But mercy can not be given independent of justice less it is no longer justice. Our laws are in fact merciful and they are just when they are applied evenly to everyone.
That which is just, can be merciful. Showing mercy in the face of that which is just, destroys justice.
" But mercy can not be given independent of justice less it is no longer justice " - this portion is not clear to me. Wud u plz make it clear.
secondly, can I say justice and mercy are mutually exclusive ?
thirdly, can I say, justice can contain mercy but mercy doesnt require justice ?
Sometimes justice requires measures that do not allow mercy. For example, if someone did a very bad act, they must be punished. But if mercy is allowed and the punishment is not meted out, then justice is thwarted.
For example, if a street thug does a brutal beatdown on the most vunerable member of your family, you expect them to be held accountable for their actions, and receive some form of punishment. But if the authority responsible for the punishment decide to allow the thug to just issue a flaccid apology and walk away, obviously justice is not served, while mercy is satisfied.
Ignorant! God is not just and merciful at the same time. How can you always be so damn dumb when you open your mouths? God is merciful with those who deserve His mercy and just with those who deserve His justice. Ignorants!!!
Your god is neither just or merciful. Your god murdered an estimated 24 million people, including innocent children in the great flood .. just because.
@ David Killens
Where did you get the 24 million figure?
@Jo Re: To David - "Where did you get the 24 million figure?"
You're right, Jo. Killing 24 million innocent people like that does seem a bit extreme. But I suppose if were only a few hundred thousand, or maybe just a couple of million innocent people that perished in the flood, then that would have been okay. Duly noted... *thumbs up*...
JO: 24 million is a conservative low estimate. The Bible” painstakingly chronicles every single person who dies in the sacred text, estimates God’s total kill count is closer to 25 million. (I have seen it as high as 27 million.)
It was an estimate on the total human population at that time. You do understand that there were other communities, cities, nations outside of Noah's little circle of acquaintances?
@ David Killens
Are you saying that just the whole word known to Noah was flooded? I agree.
I don't think he knew about Australia or the Americas. Sarcasm
Re: Jo - "Are you saying that just the whole word known to Noah was flooded? I agree."
Yeah, David! Get a grip, dude! Like I said, as long as the flood killed ONLY a few hundred thousand people around Noah's known worLd, then that is perfectly okay with ol' Jo. But that 24 million number was really pushing the limit just a bit.
It's really impressive ferguson, how you push the outside of the envelope for new levels of stupidity in each new post.
The irony of your arrogance, alongside the all pervasive ignorance you show on almost every single topic you bimble into, is causing an irony overload.
Try reading the fucking question ferguson, before you open that gaping maw, and letting the stupidity spill out.
In answer to the thread OP, and as others have pointed out, mercy is the suspension of true justice, thus a deity being both perfectly merciful and perfectly just at the same time is a rational contradiction. Even with Bullwinkle's hilarious and asinine rationalisation of a deity compartmentalising such characteristics in an ad hoc fashion.
SERIOUSLY - how much longer must we deal with this shit?
@Cog Re: "SERIOUSLY - how much longer must we deal with this shit?"
Aw, c'mon, man! Why would we want to get rid of Fig-... (oops!)... I mean, Fergie? He is the best ally an atheist could have on here. Ol' Fergie DISPLAYS the detrimental effects of religion far better than any of us on here could ever explain them. If the Fergmiester is here representing the hallmark of what it means to be a TRUE and FAITHFUL Christian representing the ONE and ONLY true Lord and Savior, then - by golly - let the little rascal have his say. Because as far as I can tell, Ferg's disjointed and insulting ramblings ain't doin' nothin' but helping us loathsome and misguided godless heathens.
Hey, Fi-... (dammit)...- Hey, Fergie! Don't you pay any attention to that mean ol' Cog! Not his fault he can't see the big picture! He has bumped his head too many times from slipping on all those banana peels he leaves scattered all over his cage! You're doing great, buddy! Keep up the good work!... *thumbs up*...
What I find is ironic is that while many atheists have no problems criticizing fergie, I do not see any theists jump on his case, stating "hey dude, you are taking this waaay too far, and making the rest of us believers look stupid".
Which somehow ties into morality, that all theists much march to the same drum, no matter how distant and no matter how insane. If they cannot take a stance on excessive behavior by one "devout" catholic, then one can infer that they also support outrageous and amoral behavior by one of their own.
If fergie kidnapped an atheist, tied that person to a stake, piled branches around it and was ready to light it on fire, would any theists attempt to stop this madman?
@David Re: "What I find is ironic is that while many atheists have no problems criticizing fergie, I do not see any theists jump on his case..."
Dammit, you beat me to it. Yep, I was planning on pointing that out, too. In that same respect, it is definitely interesting that the atheists have no problems correcting each other or calling each other out on bullshit. Matter of fact, most of us even welcome it at times. But I don't recall ever seeing a theist on here correcting another theist in the same manner. Does make one wonder, doesn't it?... *tapping lips with index finger*... Hmmmmm....
@ David Killens
I recommend chest waders, the way fergie is shovelling it, and maybe a small boat. His ignorant BS gets deeper each time he posts.
@Sheldon: Oh for fuck sake! Why in the hell didn't I think of that? Not only do I have a pair but I got myself a little rubber boat as well. So, now that I know I can float above all the shit without it touching me, what shall I do about the smell? I am sure I can't strike a match without blowing us all to hell.
@ ferguson 1951
Hey dude, you are taking this waaay too far, and making the rest of us believers look stupid.
Ridiculing and name calling is not what a Christian should do.
It makes you look juvenile, petty and insecure in your beliefs.
It distracts from your argument and diminishes your credibility.
Even if what you are saying is true (which it is not) it is wrong to verbally assault someone.
Thank you Jo.
As far as I can tell, the word justice is essentially useless for having a conversation with; as it seems to mean something different to each participant in a conversation.
You are even ignorant of your own despicable holy book:
“The Lord, the Lord God, merciful and gracious, longsuffering, and abounding in goodness and truth, keeping mercy for thousands, forgiving iniquity and transgression and sin …” Exodus 34:6-7
“The Lord is gracious and full of compassion, slow to anger and great in mercy. The Lord is good to all, and His tender mercies are over all His works.” Psalm 145:8-9.
Thus says the Lord of hosts: ‘Execute true justice, show mercy and compassion everyone to his brother. Do not oppress the widow or the fatherless, the alien or the poor. Let none of you plan evil in his heart against his brother.’” Zechariah 7:8-10.
So fuck off Fergie you are dick. Learn to read.
Truly, Never before in my life had I met such ignorance from people who declare that they are learned because they have a degree.
I could quote dozens of lines from the Bible about God's Justice. At least for us Catholics, God is LOVE, TRUTH AND JUSTICE, and it will not certainly be an ignorant atheist the one who can teach me my religion. Arrogance.
Jeremiah 9 New International Version (NIV)
9 [a]1 Oh, that my head were a spring of water
and my eyes a fountain of tears!
I would weep day and night
for the slain of my people.
2 Oh, that I had in the desert
a lodging place for travelers,
so that I might leave my people
and go away from them;
for they are all adulterers,
a crowd of unfaithful people.
3 “They make ready their tongue
like a bow, to shoot lies;
it is not by truth
that they triumph[b] in the land.
They go from one sin to another;
they do not acknowledge me,”
declares the Lord.
4 “Beware of your friends;
do not trust anyone in your clan.
For every one of them is a deceiver,[c]
and every friend a slanderer.
5 Friend deceives friend,
and no one speaks the truth.
They have taught their tongues to lie;
they weary themselves with sinning.
6 You[d] live in the midst of deception;
in their deceit they refuse to acknowledge me,”
declares the Lord.
7 Therefore this is what the Lord Almighty says:
“See, I will refine and test them,
for what else can I do
because of the sin of my people?
8 Their tongue is a deadly arrow;
it speaks deceitfully.
With their mouths they all speak cordially to their neighbors,
but in their hearts they set traps for them.
9 Should I not punish them for this?”
declares the Lord.
“Should I not avenge myself
on such a nation as this?”
10 I will weep and wail for the mountains
and take up a lament concerning the wilderness grasslands.
They are desolate and untraveled,
and the lowing of cattle is not heard.
The birds have all fled
and the animals are gone.
11 “I will make Jerusalem a heap of ruins,
a haunt of jackals;
and I will lay waste the towns of Judah
so no one can live there.”
12 Who is wise enough to understand this? Who has been instructed by the Lord and can explain it? Why has the land been ruined and laid waste like a desert that no one can cross?
13 The Lord said, “It is because they have forsaken my law, which I set before them; they have not obeyed me or followed my law. 14 Instead, they have followed the stubbornness of their hearts; they have followed the Baals, as their ancestors taught them.” 15 Therefore this is what the Lord Almighty, the God of Israel, says: “See, I will make this people eat bitter food and drink poisoned water. 16 I will scatter them among nations that neither they nor their ancestors have known, and I will pursue them with the sword until I have made an end of them.”
17 This is what the Lord Almighty says:
“Consider now! Call for the wailing women to come;
send for the most skillful of them.
18 Let them come quickly
and wail over us
till our eyes overflow with tears
and water streams from our eyelids.
19 The sound of wailing is heard from Zion:
‘How ruined we are!
How great is our shame!
We must leave our land
because our houses are in ruins.’”
20 Now, you women, hear the word of the Lord;
open your ears to the words of his mouth.
Teach your daughters how to wail;
teach one another a lament.
21 Death has climbed in through our windows
and has entered our fortresses;
it has removed the children from the streets
and the young men from the public squares.
22 Say, “This is what the Lord declares:
“‘Dead bodies will lie
like dung on the open field,
like cut grain behind the reaper,
with no one to gather them.’”
23 This is what the Lord says:
“Let not the wise boast of their wisdom
or the strong boast of their strength
or the rich boast of their riches,
24 but let the one who boasts boast about this:
that they have the understanding to know me,
that I am the Lord,WHO EXCERCISES KINDNESS, JUSTICE AND RIGHTEOUSNESS on earth,
for in these I delight,”
declares the Lord.
25 “The days are coming,” declares the Lord, “when I will punish all who are circumcised only in the flesh— 26 Egypt, Judah, Edom, Ammon, Moab and all who live in the wilderness in distant places.[e] For all these nations are really uncircumcised, and even the whole house of Israel is uncircumcised in heart.”
The only poster on here who's arrogantly flaunted a university education as making him intellectually superior was Breezy, and not only had he not attained his degree as a student, he was also a theist. You really are the mother and father of all liars.
Can someone translate that into English please?
fergie, your insanity is actually frightening.
I now have good reason to understand why you are on the run and living under the radar of law enforcement.
Just goes to prove how fucked up your book is when anyone can use verses from it to prove their antagonistic points.
But you won't get that. It must be handy to be like you and conduct your own visual colonoscopy on a semi permanent basis.