This is probably a softball question for ya'll.
I had the weird experience of someone who has a blog about atheism contact me about my loss of belief in god and say that he thinks I'm "running away from myself." He said that he believes in ego, mind and spirit, and that I need to befriend my ego. He talked some unprovable stuff, said I'm probably a young soul (1 or 2 lifetimes). I wasn't expecting all of this to come from someone who writes about atheism. He said he calls himself a spiritual atheist.
If someone believes in reincarnation, do they have to believe in a god to cause that process?
Is believing in a soul or spirit incompatible with atheism?
I'm thinking that it's possible to believe these things and still be without belief in god, but it's rather sloppy thinking because there's no credible evidence of reincarnation or soul/spirit as there is no evidence for god.
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Atheism is only the denial of the claim for a god or gods. An atheist believing in reincarnation is left with providing the mechanism which as far as I would know might not need a deity.
Buddhists sre considered atheist but I lesrned from our last Buddhist visitor to AR they also believe in evil and a devil called Mara who tries to prevent folks from reaching nirvanah.
@ Grinseed
You are talking Forest Buddhism...one can believe in any gods/devils/Kami you like and still be buddhist. What buddha said was that gods are irrelevant to the process of enlightenment. Buddha is not a god, he maintained that himself, he also said that people would try and make him to be a god and they would build a religion around him. He wasn't very happy about that, he didn't like monks much either,,,so, if you follow the precepts of buddhism and the view of cyclic rebirth, and don't believe in any gods or spirits, yes you can be an atheist buddhist.
But as Dragonfly says, there's is no solid evidence for rebirth either. Lots of anecdotal 'evidence' and the Tibetans build their entire hierarchy and daily lives lives around it.
Thanks for that Old Man, appreciated.
Can an atheist believe in reincarnation?
Well, yes. One need not believe in any gods (definition of atheist), yet still believe in reincarnation. I for one do not believe in reincarnation. If me wife and daughters had reincarnated, they'd've found me by now.
rmfr
You can believe what you want. Atheism is specifically non-belief in god.
I once got very stressed and went to see a psychiatrist. In our first session, she asked me if I believed in reincarnation. I told her I was an atheist and believed in nothing supernatural. Then she told me she was the reincarnation of a Babylonian princess whose spirit was trapped in the well under her kitchen.
I like mad psychiatrists. They make you feel so sane by comparison.
@Algebe (and All)
Thanks for helping clear that up. It's been a cloudy issue to me since almost all of the atheists I'm talking to online and offline are pretty disciplined in their demanding evidence for beliefs.
Yeah, psychiatrists can be pretty flaky. That's rather creative, though! My doc below was just barking mad, but not very creative.
True story: In 2007 I had a breast lump, and I consulted a holistic doctor. She was an MD, a surgeon, and while I was in the waiting room, I saw an article that said she was also a medium. I was pretty desperate, so I asked her to tell me what "they" on the other side said. She closed her eyes and said in a monotone voice, "It is our opinion that this mass should be removed." This was before I even had all of my testing finished. I found a new doctor. A month or two ago, after a discussion about woo with a Skeptics group, I looked up the holistic doctor to see what she's up to. Turns out she's lost her hospital privileges. She claims to be the reincarnation of Lizzie Borden (not exactly someone you'd want using a knife on you!), said the military wanted to hire her for her psychic powers, and that the government is after her after she removed a microchip implanted in someone in the federal witness protection program. She said she needed to carry a gun to protect her from repeated assassination attempts. Her license hasn't been revoked, and she has her own operating suite, so she's still in business. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_cmhQ35_gYE
@Algebe
How much did this psychiatrist possessed by the reincarnation of babylonian princess charge per hour?
Is it even reincarnation? Seems more like a body possession by a ghost going by popular mass media, and why would would said ghost admit it?
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▮ I am an atheist that always likes a good debate. ▮
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@LogicFTW: How much did this psychiatrist possessed by the reincarnation of babylonian princess charge per hour?
From memory it was $100 for the psychiatrist and $50 for the princess.
My wife's psychiatrist gave her a discount after we helped her to translate a letter to the Japanese CIA asking them to help rescue her imaginary sister who'd been kidnapped by the South Korean CIA. She was a real cat lady too. She had her office at her home, which she shared with about 20 cats.
I sometimes wonder if they were pretending to be nuts as part of the therapy. It certainly puts your problems into perspective when you talk to someone who's barking (or miaowing) mad.
LOL,,,, I went to a therapist once and he pulled the ole carnival trick on me. You hold your arm out at a distance and resist someone pushing it down. Then you ask the person a question. If the person can resist the push down, they are telling the truth. But if you can use just two fingers and push the arm down the person is lying. I kid you not. This is exactly what the jerk did. By the end of the session I had been molested and did not know it. Ha ha ha ha ah ..... possibly when I was an infant. Lucky for me the consultation was free. I suppose it is a hit or miss cold reading. When he gets it right the people must be amazed at his psychic ability. (This is a con that works on basic principles of leverage. It's a carnival trick. Anyone can push down anyone else's arm if it is fully extended in front or to the side of their body.) Generally arms are weaker to the sides. Unless of course the person being tested is an expert on the rings. Pure Crap.
Most therapists are crazy. I hate to admit it but it is true. It's true for 2 obvious reasons. First, a whole lot of people go into therapy as a university major to cure themselves. They begin as whackjobs who can not make sense out of the world around them. So, they study psychology. Second, even the normal ones become flaky when dealing with so many different perspectives of reality and ways of making sense of reality. Unless you are a very well grounded human being, being a therapist is probably not a good place to be. It's a bit like being an alcoholic and then getting a job as a bartender. Once the counselor or psychologist starts playing with ideas they just can't stop. I think of Psychologists as modern day medicine men. They are 'Story Tellers." and not much more.
@Cognostic
Hah never thought of it that way before but I am inclined to agree this is likely true at least in part. I have not been to a therapist since I was a kid, as I have not felt a need for one, (most people that know me well say I am one of the most calm, stable, well grounded person they ever met.)
But sometimes I wonder if I did get counseling if I would drive the therapist themself to seek therapy, if I got bored and started messing with their foundations of reality, especially a highly religious therapist as their reality is so unstable.
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▮ I am an atheist that always likes a good debate. ▮
▮ Please include @LogicFTW in responses directed to me. ▮
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There are hundreds of whackjobs out there. Statistically, just the fact that you go to a therapist and pay the fee you will have a 50% chance of improving. About the same as talking to a good bartender. It may just be opening up that elicits the change and it may be simply that change occurs naturally whether or not you go to a therapist. The fact that you are doing anything at all can have a positive impact on your problem, whatever it may be.
@ Cognostic
And that is why I stayed in geology, volcanology. I am crazy enough after the deaths of my family.
rmfr
I think it's sloppy also; why go through the trouble of casting out one pile of non-sense, just to embrace a new pile of non-sense?
But yes; no fundamental reason why an atheist can't believe in reincarnation, ghosts, etc.
@Grinseed
I don't consider Buddhists to be atheists because they have deities. Some online sites refer to these as gods and goddesses. I studied zen Buddhism in the West for a while, and I don't remember hearing anything about gods/goddesses, though. Perhaps the various forms of Buddhism differ in this regard?
Yes, the two main buddhist traditions vary widely. In addition many cultures adopted buddhism and retained their gids (see my first reply above) .
Zen is a particular ascetic form of buddhism, I studied it for over 30 years as part of my martial art. I still use the techniques of zen breathing, meditation etc today. Zen was particularly popular in Medieval Japan where the Samurai found it fitted admirably well with the code of Bushido, self negation and the promise of rebirth.
Santa Anna, CA with Fumio Demura. Also trained with Doug and Dan Ivan.
Trained until I was 35 or so.
Began with Okanawan Hard Style, Go-ju Ki and Go-ju-ryu
Did some Shotokan but like the Shito-ryu system better.
Also have training in Iaido, Kendo, Judo, Aikido, Taikwan-do (Obviouly as I live in Korea now) and Hop-ki do.
Now I am old and my knees are gone. 3 surgeries on the right leg just to keep me walking. I miss fighting!!!
@ Cog
Aha! I knew we had a lot in common...My first love was Kendo, then Ia-do, I also trained in Jo-do (not to be confused with Ju-do)...which ended up my absolute fav, but very few practitioners.
I trained with a Korean swordsman for a year or two, very interesting indeed...got me in shite at my home dojo with the japanese sensei ....he beat the crap out of me when I utilised one of the Korean sword techniques I had learnt LOL...twenty laps of the dojo and cleaning the place on my knees....heheheh good times!
Alas, a bit crusty, stiff and old, and snapped my calf muscle for my 60th birthday...at which point I decided enough was enough. My youngest stepson has my armour, swords, jo, and gi. He isn't practising now but my elder stepson was very good and at 10 years old was fighting adults in Kendo. I hope he has kept it up since we lost touch.
@ Cog and Old Man
Funny. I had an elderly Oriental guy train me in something. He never said it was, just said it was an "art." He was a lot like Miyagi in The Karate Kid (the one with Noriyuki "Pat" Morita). None of the wax-on wax-off stuff, but similar. He would have me doing things that did not seem to be martial arts, but actually were. Unlike the Ralph Machio character, I was lot more patient.
Later on, I commissioned a Japanese Master Sword maker to create a katana for me. Even trained with that same Oriental guy later. And get this, I never learned his name. I only called him, as he told me, "sonsang." Whatever that means. Most often I just called him "master."
What does sonsang mean? That is how he spelled in English, but was pronounced syon•syang (best spelling I can offer).
Oh and all the cleanings before/after training, yeah, fun times.
rmfr
@ Arakish
I think you mean "sun san"...Mr Thinker (maybe) from memory....I will probably be shot down in flames as my japanese was sufficient for the bar, the dojo and little else. The "san" is an honorific normally after your name or a description of you....
@ Old Man
Maybe, but as said, it was definitely pronounced "syon•syang". The way he said, it definitely had that sub-vocal "y" sound after the "s" and just before other vowel. If he had not written it sonsang, I would spell it sionsiang. Then again his written English was NOT very good. If I could remember the pictograph symbols, I'd show them. However, there was definitely that "ng" sound like in ring as the end.
And do not ask me if he was Japanese or Chinese or Korean or whatever. He would never tell me. As he put it, "To you, I am only Master." Kind of spooky. A lot like Miyagi and the Shaolin priests from the Kung Fu TV show (the original one).
Be nice if Algebe saw these posts. Doesn't he know about Japan pretty well?
rmfr
I trained in Kom-do (Korean sword here as well) But for a year now I have had some painful growth on my right second toe from the end and it prevents me from bouncing much/ I got an appt with doctor number 5 on the 17th. Still, Great sport! My plan is to take up Aikido when I get the damn foot taken care of. There is a club near by.
The Zen tradition does not focus on them, nevertheless, if you go to the zen temple in Garden Grove or the one in LA you can find hints of shamanistic tradition if you pay attention. Zen in Japan was taught to the wartier class and it was paired with Shamanism and Bushido. Zen Buddhism does not have any worshiping, praying, or praising of a divine being.
"What Are The Differences Between Zen And Buddhism?
Zen, like a some other Buddhist traditions, is trying to stay true to the original teaching of the Buddha which lays emphasis on the practice of meditation, and not on rituals and theoretical concepts."
http://www.zen-buddhism.net/faq/zen-faq.html
There are many kinds of Buddhism just as there are many kinds of Christianity. New teacher, new kind of Buddhism.
I honestly don't know much about Buddhism beyond the story of the rich young man seeking a better life. Our Buddhist visitor left links to his favourite site where I was surprised to learn about a devil and a war between Gatauma and this devil's army. I promised myself to go back and read up more but, busy, busy, tired..
A - without
Theist - belief in god or gods.
It has nothing to do with reincarnation, ghosts, crystal magic, pyramid power, astral projection, mind reading, fortune telling, or any of the other Woo Woo stuff people believe. Atheism is a response to a single assertion. "God exists." The atheist response is "I don't believe that." Nothing more.
With that said, I think the majority of atheists are critical thinkers and skeptics. They just require a bit more evidence for claims of ancient aliens, big foot, or the Loch Ness Monster, than does the average person. They might still believe stupid stuff like,,,, "Going outside with wet hair or no jacket can make you sick." That is not because they do not understand the germ theory of disease. It is not because they don't understand colds are caused by virus and not the cold weather. It's just because it is something they were taught when they were a child and have never thought to question before. We have a lot of stuff like that. For example.... Who was the first person to actually be "The President of the United States of America?" If you think it is George Washington you are wrong. Ole George was a General in the Army of the United States of America when it fought the British? Who was running the country then?
Beliefs are dumped into our brains and we never think about them. We just blindly believe them. We will continue to blindly believe them until we learn to begin thinking critically.
1. A synonym for soul is (I don't know what the fuck I am talking about.) You ask a person to define it and you get all sorts of WooWoo assertions. If you hear one you think sounds good to you, post it in the forum and I will be happy to rip it to shreds.
2. Ego. Another magical construct. There is no such thing. This is a word directly linked to Freudian Psychoanalysis. In 1707 it generally referred to ""the self; that which feels, acts, or thinks," (Etymology Dictionary) Later Sigmund Freud used the term for a portion of the mind as he split the mind into Id (Childlike impulses and desires. The id seeks instant gratification. ) The Ego ( According to Freud, the ego develops from the id and ensures that the impulses of the id can be expressed in a manner acceptable in the real world.) The superego (This develops last and it the center of moral codes, ethics, rules and he like) The job of the Ego is to weigh Id impulses against Superego restrictions and behave appropriately in society.
All of this is FANTASY. No such structures exist. Every psychological theory has a theory of mind. There are hundreds of ways to look at the mind (another abstract construct.) You don't befriend your ego. You are your ego.
Next time he says it you, tell him to get his Id under control. He can't have everything he wants. If his superego was better trained it would not allow the his ego would have recognized the inappropriateness of allowing it to make a moron of itself.
@ spiritual atheist, Yep - these idiots are out there. Invite him to the site and have him talk about his spiritual crap. I for one would love to hear it! In fact, I'm betting that your friend and I have read all the same books.
@ Is believing in a soul or spirit incompatible with atheism?
Compatable YES Atheism is only a position on belief in god. Skepticism and Critical thinking are not comparable with spiritualist BS. Most atheists are skeptics but as you have discovered - not all.
@ "there's no credible evidence of reincarnation or soul/spirit as there is no evidence for god.
Not only are you a member of the club, but if you keep this up, you can run for president next year. (Spot on!)
@Cognostic
Ok, this is definitely making more sense, but what about an atheist who says he believes the world is a simulation? Wouldn't that require an intelligence/god to create the simulation? I wouldn't think a simulation could occur by chance or evolution. If someone claims to believe the world is a simulation, aren't they really just another variety of theist?
No difference. You can believe anything you want. Theists believe in God on faith. There is nothing anyone can not believe based on faith. The person believing in a universe that is a simulation is basing his belief on a logical argument without much actual evidence.
Atheism is about 1 thing and 1 thing only. Belief in God or gods. Perhaps this will help.
Atheist is a derogatory word used by the religious to describe non-believers. Synonyms would be heathen, non-believer, sinner, pagan, infidel, and other such words. The word is used to slander people who do not believe in the same way "Yankee" was once used as a slur against Americans by the British or 'gay' was once used as a slur against homosexuals. Now the gays are GAY and proud of it. We have a baseball team called the Yankees and if you do any traveling and get drunk with some Brits you are likely to be called "Yank." We even stole one of their songs "Yankee Doodle" and make our children learn it because we are proud to be Yankees. The word atheist is no different than these. I would be just as happy to be called an Infidel or a Heathen. I simply laugh at the ignorance of the religious. Atheist is simply the word that has been chosen by non-believers to represent non-believers. The word means - (I don't believe in God or gods,) That's it. Nothing more.
@Cognostic Got it! Thank you
Intelligence does not = god. Two different words two different definitions.
You can be an atheist and state the world is a simulation, if you think some intelligence created the simulation. But if you say "god" created the simulation then you are no longer atheist by definition.
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▮ I am an atheist that always likes a good debate. ▮
▮ Please include @LogicFTW in responses directed to me. ▮
▮ Useful list on forum usage. A.R. Member since 2016. ▮
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Yes, I suppose an intelligence could be aliens, so not god there.
RE: "If someone claims to believe the world is a simulation, aren't they really just another variety of theist?"
You have entered WooWoo land. The first assumption, "The world is a simulation" must be proved before you leap to "God done it." "All powerful aliens done it" "Rat Spit's Overlord done it." Whatever. Worrying about a God is piling BS on top of BS. Take things one step at a time.
God exists and he made the world a simulation: Prove there is a god.
The simulation exists and a God did it: Prove there is a god.
The simulation exists: Prove there is a simulation.
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