A conversation ender!

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Danny Craft's picture
A conversation ender!

So I was having a beer and chat with my workmate the other day, who I had only known a few days. We got on to politics (as ya do) for a brief moment. We started talking about the state of the world and how it's come to be this way, and what we think the solutions are. I began to explain the basics of The Zeitgeist Movement, which I see as the best hope humanity has right now, which he completely ignored and actually interrupted, in an 'all-knowing' tone, with these words.. wait for it... "everything you need to know, about whats happened, what's happening now and what we can do about it, is all in one place.. the Bible"
.. Obviously in my head I thought 'this conversation is over!' .. But went on to calmly argue that the bible doesn't have a real plan how to get us out of this mess. To which he replied, "when you have faith in our lord, you just know it will all work itself out, it's all happening for a reason and it will all work itself out" .. Obviously it became clear to me that there was no amount of reasoning that would help this man come to realize the truth. So I politely said "probably best for us not to get into a debate about this" .. I quickly finished my beer n got the fuck outta there!

But the problem still lingers in my head. Just what the fuck can we do to help people like this?
.. How naive really, of any man, to actually believe that the answer to everything can be found in one book. A book that actually provides not a single factual explanation of anything, nor provides any feasible suggestions to actually help this species!

It's people like him, in moments like that, that make me lose hope, and quite frankly, be embarrassed to be the same species

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matthjar's picture
I understand where he was

I understand where he was coming from.... ;-)..... I am glad to see though that others do see how bad of shape we are in as a species... what is the solution of the Zeitgeist Movement??? I always love searching out new ideas.... ;-).

I would have to disagree with "A book that actually provides not a single factual explanation of anything, nor provides any feasible suggestions to actually help this species!"

Just for 2 real easy and simple counterpoints....

1. Why do we call this year 2014? For a factual explanation of anything.....
2. And the Advice to "Turn the other cheek" For a feasible suggestion to help the species.... I realize the one is debatable for anyone that wants to go down that road.

But i have to agree that your co-worker seems to have done a very poor job of communicating his beliefs and as indicative of so many Christians that don't even know why they believe the things they believe..... It truly is a Sad state of affairs....

If there is anything that irks me about other Christians and Non-Christians alike is blanket conversation ending statements like that....

I myself have a very hard time retaining any sort of Faith in Humanities ability to make much progress.... History is just so full of the same things over and over again that i wonder if we will ever learn from our past mistakes.... "Those that forget History are doomed to repeat it."

Danny Craft's picture
There's a thread on TZM. And

There's a thread on TZM. And I do recommend a thorough research before commenting :)

The fact that we have come to use the year JC was apparently born as a zero on our calender is not a factual explanation of anything.
.. And nah that is not debatable, it's wrong.. To "turn the other cheek" is to ignore. Since when was ignorance a good way to solve any problems? .. You could have used the 10 commandments! But even still, they're void, because if the only reason you're not being "bad" is because you fear gods wrath, then you're being good for the wrong reasons, you're morals are still wrong.

Most people if you asked them honestly couldn't tell you why they believe. This is because they didn't make an educated decision to believe, they didn't choose, their parents did.

.. Well I hear you on that last point. You should find TZM a very rewarding study :) .. But hey, remember, you ARE humanity. So to have no faith in humanity, is to have no faith in yourself.. We can do it, we just have a lot of bullshit to clear up first!

matthjar's picture
Cool going to check out TZM

Cool going to check out TZM tomorrow and see what i find out.....

I guess possibly you are loosely correct as to that not being factual as Jesus was not born on 0 AD on December 24th but most likely 6 AD in august or September due to the lasted research......LOL.... so that might not have been a good example....

Interesting viewpoint on the Ten Comms...... just curious what is your reason for not being "bad" or i am really interested in knowing how do you decide if something is "bad" or "good"??? Would i be correct in guessing that what is "good" and "bad" for you might not necessarily be "good" and "bad" for me.... its a highly subjective call???

I totally 100% agree that most people do NOT make an educated decision on what to believe or not to believe....... I am not so sure that it is really based on our parents choosing for us though..... I my observation most people follow this path..... How do i feel about "Hell" or "Heaven" or "God" or "Murder" ..... How they feel about something determines How they think about it which then determines What they believe about it....... Its kind of like that old adage people decide what they believe then they look for facts to back up that belief rather then the other way around which would make alot more sense.....LOL.....

To me the whole problem with the feelings model of believing is just so Flightly and not really based on evidence....... If i have Heartburn after eating spicy food i might feel differently as when i don't..... when some dude cuts me off in traffic i might feel differently as when he doesn't .......

I would submit to you that if someone strikes you on one cheek if you do nothing would be to ignore.... when you turn the other cheek you are not ignoring... if you did nothing at all then that would be to ignore or ignorance that they just slapped your cheek.... ;-)

Anywhich way really enjoying the discussion and hope to talk more soon.....

And your right their also I dont have alot of faith in my own nature but only in the nature that resides in me and guides me.... I know that I am truly pretty Selfish and Self serving Dude at my basest level.... specially when it comes to Freuds ID...... Not that i am trying to put myself down but just that i dont like to lie to myself but rather trying to base my decision on all the evidence available and not just on the way it makes me "Feel"... like most people do....

Danny Craft's picture
Ha okay well whatever the

Ha okay well whatever the point of bringing up the year was, it isn't a factual explanation of anything, just numbers we created :)

.. Sure everyone has differing views on good or bad, but I believe in a certain level in all of us that we can get on and truly find that line between the two.. My reason for not been "bad" .. cause I don't like to hurt people, I like to make people laugh. This comes from me not liking being hurt, and liking to laugh! .. Do unto others, you know the drill! But do it for the good of the planet and all of humanity, not because a fictional character said so.. Obviously I can't list every possible scenario where I could make a moral judgement, the complexities are never ending. But overall, basically, no I don't think what you find "good" n "bad" would differ much from mine, am I wrong?

Yea okay, to elaborate on the choice of religion.. there is more than just the parents choice. It's also which religion you spent the most time learning about in school, in fact it's the religion you become the most familiar with through experience that one is most likely to end up believing in,if any at all. Sure, it will have to do with heaven and hell too, but what you're actually talking about when you say that is; threats and promises, fear and hope. Without these things, religion wouldn't stand.. And I think the way you feel about something and the way you think about something are essentially the same thing, then through what you've learned and/or been taught you make a decision about what you're going to do about it, then ultimately, you believe whatever you want to believe.

I don't understand what you mean by turn the other cheek then? For them to slap the other?.. How is this a feasible suggestion for real help for our species?

And hey, I hear ya. Considering the system we live within, being selfish has become almost a necessity. It doesn't mean you naturally are. (and I don't know what Freuds ID is) .. You need to understand we are what we do, and we do what we think. So, our thoughts become the future. The fact that you're willing to admit that your selfish (which we all are sometimes) proves that you know for you to be less selfish would benefit others, right? .. It's like it's been said; we must be the change we want to see in the world.. Know that everything about your personality come from a a sequence of events, things you've seen, done, felt, heard, smelt, read, etc. We are all products of our upbringing and environment, once you fully understand that, the thought of change becomes a bit easier to deal with, in my opinion anyway.

Lmale's picture
I could safely say if

I could safely say if religion was not introduced to a child (not practical to do except with the world agreeing and thats not likely) till the age of 13 the religions would die out within one or two generations.
Religion is dangerous to unformed minds that are programmed to accept what their parents say is a fact. This gets reinforced by authority figures ie your parent says to listen to someone you then treat what they say like your parents were saying it. So church sunday school bible study religious groups at school and in some cases religious schools. Kids dont have a chance. All that is difficult to overcome i see adults telling me i worship satan because their priest told them i do.
I see adults talking shit about evolution but they dont understand the very thing they are talking about so why do they badmouth it? Oh a priest told them.

Danny Craft's picture
O it's all true Lmale.

O it's all true Lmale.
.. And every Sunday, off they go; to reinforce (aka, further the mental damage) that belief by repeating the scriptures and promises and threats over and over. Picking issues in the world and relating them to their religion like one can with any story, all to give the illusion of seeing Gods work in action. And of course every week, taking a bit of money from them.
.. When it comes to things like evolution, remember; they're afraid to even learn about it because they're told; to question one's faith is evil and wrong, and it threatens their belief. They love their belief.. like they're trained to.. on all them Sundays. Trained to obey, to not question, to accept that you have no real control over your life and this life is simply a test to try n make it to a better next life.

We're lost!

Danny Craft's picture
Shit, must have hit undo or

Shit, must have hit undo or summet, grrr!

Trained to obey, to not question, to accept that some mystical being created everything and put us here just as a test to make it to a better next life.

We're lost

Jeff Vella Leone's picture
Nice debate Danny and

Nice debate Danny and Matthjar, haven't seen such a positive debate in ages.

Yea Danny , I'm with all you have said practically.

"Trained to obey, to not question, to accept that some mystical being created everything and put us here just as a test to make it to a better next life."
- to fear God and Love him at the same time,
- to pray to god for things that he is not granting unless they fit his plan.
- to think that everybody that says something against their god, is saying something against them.
- to make god before everybody else although they know that most of them don't.
- to feel unworthy of god and depend on god's mercy.
- to follow what the priest says not what it is written since they are unworthy of understanding god, but the priest is unless he rapes some children. Then and only then follow what the other GOOD priests say about it, although saying that you follow Jesus and not the priests.
- etc...... and the list goes on for a mile :)

Lmale's picture
Yea i insulted a christian

Yea i insulted a christian the other day his stupidity drove me to it but heres where its funny he accused me of insulting christianity. The arrogance!!!

mysticrose's picture
If you don't want a senseless

If you don't want a senseless and long conversation then avoid having one with a person who strongly believe on his religion even if he cannot really understand the core of it. There are more important things to do than to converse with someone whose mind is not at the same level of understanding, isn't it?

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