Dark Matter
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You don't get to just assume it has a supernatural cause even if there is currently no scientific explanation, that's yet another argument from ignorance fallacy. Christ you love to trot these out, but then ignore all objections. Any minute now you'll lie that your claims are based on logic again.
Nothing that contains a known logical fallacy can be asserted as rationally true.
Science can't explain it - ergo supernatural miracle.
My favourite part was the unveiled claim that monks can explain why it's a supernatural miravle.
No they can't and Hitchens's razor is going to need sharpening if you keep flooding this fptim with endless unevidenced claims.
how is their/ Your claim falsifiable? If it's falsifiable science could at least explain that much, otherwise it's another woo woo superstitious claim using an argumentum ad ignorantiam fallacy. Only this time you've added an appeal to authority fallacy by citing the monks, is their explanation objectively true in the way science is? Obviously not if science "can't explain it".
This thread is hilarious.
@Sheldon
“Now, Kalamas, don’t go by reports, by legends, by traditions, by scripture, by logical conjecture, by inference, by analogies, by agreement through pondering views, by probability, or by the thought, ‘This contemplative is our teacher.’ When you know for yourselves that, ‘These qualities are skillful; these qualities are blameless; these qualities are praised by the wise; these qualities, when adopted & carried out, lead to welfare & to happiness’ — then you should enter & remain in them.”
[Kalama Sutta, AN 3.65]
You seem to know much about religion - save for the one out there which preaches self exertion as the mode for salvation - not a messiah, a god, or a prophet.
I could give you a lesson in Buddhism, but I won’t. I know your ilk well enough to be throwing my pearls to swine.
Come back when you’ve read a few books on Buddhism. Then we’ll argue esotericism in a friendly manner.
What has any of that to do with my post?
http://www.atheistrepublic.com/forums/debate-room/dark-matter?page=2#com...
Try gain, or don't, but do please desist from this tedious sermonising. The fact you think you're an expert on Buddhism has no bearing on your unevidenced claims for miracles being based on known logical fallacies, or your dishonesty in refusing to even address this point.
@Sheldon
You’re appealing to science as an authority in all matters. Don’t you think that Buddhism might just be the authority when it comes to the meditative abilities of a monk who immolates himself?
I am not saying Buddhism explains the immolation because science is unable to. I’m saying that within Buddhist tenants there is plenty of explanation for how this man was able to douse himself in gasoline, light himself on fire, and burn to ashes without moving an inch. There’s no appeal to ignorance. Buddhism has the answers in this case.
An appeal to authority fallacy won't be supported by any objective evidence, thus citing science is the very antithesis of an appeal to authority fallacy. A lot of theists make this fallacious claim, they are ignorant of logical fallacies, like you. You know you can Google this stuff yourself right?
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ratspit "I am not saying Buddhism explains the immolation because science is unable to."
Oh dear...
Thu, 01/31/2019 - 18:59
rat spit "Science fails in understanding - Buddhism supplies the answers and we have an explanation of our miracle "
http://www.atheistrepublic.com/forums/debate-room/dark-matter?page=2#com...
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"Buddhist tenants there is plenty of explanation for how this man was able to douse himself in gasoline, light himself on fire, and burn to ashes without moving an inch. There’s no appeal to ignorance. Buddhism has the answers in this case."
Tenets for fuck sake, not tenants, and the appeal to ignorance was you claiming that it was true because science fails in understanding it, as I showed above with a verbatim quote. And no Buddhism can't objectively evidence a miracle at all, and a repetition of your unevidenced claim is not evidence. They make woo woo claims the same as you.
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@Sheldon
I presume you’ve seen images or videos of the Theravādian Buddhist monk dousing himself in gasoline, lighting himself in fire, and remaining in a cross-legged position until his charred body crumples over?
Miracle? I don’t know. Astonishing? Beyond reasonable explanation? Yes.
For fuck’s sake. Buddhism explains his ability to sit still while being on fire.
You’re twisting words. You’re adding miracle wherever it suits you. Whatever the fuck this kind of self-immolation is - the man shows an astounding ability to remain unperturbed by being set ablaze.
Buddhism explains it. Buddhism has an answer for it. The man WAS a Buddhist - not a coincidence, Sheldon.
rat spit "Miracle? I don’t know. Astonishing? Beyond reasonable explanation? Yes."
Thu, 01/31/2019 - 18:59
rat spit "Science fails in understanding - Buddhism supplies the answers and we have an explanation of our miracle "
You are backtracking and contradicting yourself. You claimed it was a supernatural miracle, but have not attempted to evidence this claim. If something is beyond reasonable explanation, then ipso facto any attempt to claim it can be explained is unreasonable, and you are the one doing this, dear oh dear. You still don't understand what argumentum ad ignorantiam is or what it means, why haven't you bothered to research this simple logical fallacy?
ratspit "For fuck’s sake. Buddhism explains his ability to sit still while being on fire."
Maybe it does maybe it doesn't, but you have no evidence for that claim, and it is axiomatic that nothing supernatural is required to train your body to withstand extremes of pain. I did this myself for many years practising a martial art called Aikido, and that also involved medidation.
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"You’re twisting words. You’re adding miracle wherever it suits you. "
Oh really? Well here is a verbatim quote of your claim again, with a working link to your post in this thread.
Thu, 01/31/2019 - 18:59
rat spit "Science fails in understanding - Buddhism supplies the answers and we have an explanation of our ****miracle "
http://www.atheistrepublic.com/forums/debate-room/dark-matter?page=2#com...
I don't appreciate you lying about what I have claimed.
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"Buddhism explains it. Buddhism has an answer for it. The man WAS a Buddhist - not a coincidence, Sheldon."
Are you now recanting your earlier claim (quoted above) it was a supernatural miracle? then by all means link some objective or peer reviewed research that validates your claim Buddhism can explain or evidence a miracle, as you claimed. The fact science can't fully explain something tells us nothing, and assertions based on having no scientific explanation are argument ad ignorantiam fallacies.
Just like your claim for a miracle of Fátima, these claims are not supported by any objective evidence. Anecdotal testimonies and subjective religious beliefs like Buddhism are not objective evidence.
@Sheldon
Yes. I’m recanting the claim that it is a supernatural miracle. It is an astonishing feat of meditative absorption combined with a willingness for one to give up one’s life for the sake of a cause.
Buddhsim is a body of knowledge. I don’t know why you need peer reviewed journals to evidence everything you cone across.
I’m certainly not going to look for one. As I said, Buddhism is a body of knowledge. All we need to explain this feat of self control (the immolation) is contained within the canon of Buddhist sermons.
Contrary to what you might be thinking Buddhism provides more than, say, Christianity - as a body of knowledge. Given the Bible; we might say “oh Jesus gave him the power to do it.”
Not so in Buddhism. Again, you seem to know very little about the one religion out there that refuses to take a stance on Creation and a Creator.
That example, is just an extreme case of strict bodily control. It is not woo woo or anything mystic. If it was, the idiot would have commanded the fire to stop.
OMFG, that is the funniest thing I have ever seen. You had me going for a while fair play, I'm man enough to admit when I've duped. One of her hands is shorter than the other, I nearly choked laughing, she was literally holding one handing slightly in front of the other. That's fucking hilarious, I had no idea Buddhists had such a wicked sense of humour. I'm full of cold and literally nearly choked laughing at that, brilliant.
Hey! Look at that. We actually shared a moment. Glad to have brought a grin to your teeth.
But those were Christians. Not Buddhists. And I’m not a Buddhist either - if that’s what you meant. I’ve studied Buddhism for a while. I’ve never been ordained and I don’t follow Buddhist precepts.
“I have preached the truth without making any distinction between exoteric and esoteric doctrine: for in respect of the truths, Ananda, the Tathagata has no such thing as the closed fist of a teacher, who keeps some things back.”
— Buddhist Suttas: Book of the Great Decease
Sorry to burst your bubble, but you did not burst my bubble. I have achieved cessation and it is an absolutely esoteric thing.
Did you watch the miracle in the video?
“Praise God! Yes, Jesus! Yes, Jesus!” - that’s all I could think. Ya know? Just “Glory, glory hallelujah” And then I start speaking in tongues. “Hana hana sha la la - praise be to The almighty. Hana na na hula hula hoop - praise be the holy spirit!.” Unbelievable stuff. Truly unbelievable.
inexplicable!
Ratspit "“I have preached"
Well this is a secular debate forum, not a church pulpit. So that's your problem right there, as I keep explaing to you, you're preaching and have been from the start.
You've come to the wrong shop to sell unevidenced superstition as well.
Are you ever going to answer my questions as I have honestly answered yours?
I wonder if you will ever address the fact your claims are based on known logical fallacies in informal logic, though by now I think we all know the answer to that, but here's the response to your unevidenced assertion for miracles one more time anyway, FWIW.
Something cannot rationally be asserted as a supernatural event or miracle just because we currently can't explain it. Such assertions are argumentum ad ignorantiam fallacies, and thus by definition irrational or illogical.
I have no interest in your or Buddhism's unevidenced and subjective claims for esoteric truth. Anymore than I marvel that people have encountered mermaids just because they care to make the claim.
The sincerity of any belief tells us nothing about its validity. Only objective evidence gives us the best chance of believing only what is true.
Something religions have failed miserably at, and again this is axiomatic.
@Sheldon
I’ve already addressed this above. We can argue the validity of Buddhism when and if you get a grip on some of it’s tenants.
My stay here has consisted of auditory evidence from personal experience. Knowledge derived from my senses. If you can’t admit “observation” as evidence, I don’t know what you can admit as evidence.
You don’t care about Buddhism? Sad. It’s very secular - makes no claims about God or the beginnings of the cosmos. Some call it an Atheist Religion. Anyway. Much too late for me now. Good night.
@ Rat spit
Quite a love fest you have going there...I shall have to get you two a room soon...or a cage...
It is "tenets" not tenants...they just rent space...Oh wait..in your case mate...that is probably the correct term.
If you do follow buddha then you will realise that it in itself cannot claim 'validity'. I suspect you are a shallow buddhist with little understanding, a lot of misunderstanding and very little scholarship or practise.
It is late here and I am off to bed as well...do try to blow some more bubbles tomorrow, I so enjoy pricking them....btw those fleas dude...tsk tsk...nasty critters.
(Edit for humor)
@Old Man Shouting
If you’d like to call 17 years studying the Tripitaka - moving into Nagarjuna, Mahayana, and the Prajnaparamita texts - a shallow Buddhist. I’ve spent extensive times developing jhana. As a zen practitioner yourself, “just sitting”; “emptying the mind” - and whatnot are all tenants of the prajnaparamita writings. The Tripitaka contains the earliest Buddhist material - the material most often attributed to the Buddha himself. Here nor there - I am schooled in Hinayana and Mahayana. So I can’t say I have 25 years of practice as you do. But I have 17. Mainly in Theravāda.
@ Rat Spit
Ok respect dude...in which case some solid mediation will soon teach you, with your learning, that the voices you hear are your own. Meditate on that.
Buddhism is the pursuit of ultimate simplicity. It seems to me you are complicating your search.
Oh and it is TENETS, ok TENETS...tenants are what your voices are...*falls off chair giggling* "see what I did there Ratty?
@Old Man Shouting
Lol. Yes. I see what you did there.
Respect for you as well. Zen is a great tradition. As I intend to tell Sheldon, “mindfulness” is becoming more and more prominent in main stream Western society - into areas of psychology - with regard to anxiety disorders, for example.
My meditation is “jhana” meditation - samatha meditation - serenity meditation.
I practice it daily. My understanding of Zen is that zazen leads to insight. And so, obviously - one could call it “insight meditation”. But correct me if I’m wrong.
As far as those voices go. I’m telling you - those tenants are hard to kick out and impossible to live with. But that’s just my existential plight. We all have our shit.
Adieu
@ Ratty
All meditation leads to 'insight" or more prosaically a real view of the world uncolored by prejudice or emotion. There is nothing "magic" or 'supernatural' about the results of calm contemplation or deep meditation. It is just practice and self discipline.
I feel for you in your plight with your obviously unwelcome 'tenants'. I have yet to experience such and so cannot empathise as much as I would like. The situation distresses you, that is obvious.
Maybe it is time for you to take further action ?
17 years of study, and you still don't know the difference between tenets and tenants. Says it all really. That hilarity aside, one can spend a lifetime studying Harry Potter and the rules of Quidditch, this doesn't alter the fact it is a fictitious nonsense. Meditation and Buddhism has some interesting physiological effects, but nothing supernatural is evidenced at all, those claims are nonsense.
Okay, Sheldon. You have, I’m assuming, virtually no knowledge of Buddhism - however you’re qualified to say that it’s claims are nonsense. Okay, not intellectually arrogant whatsoever ... I fully concur with your long thought out deductions!
rat spit "I’ve already addressed this above. We can argue the validity of Buddhism when and if you get a grip on some of it’s tenants."
Buddhism has tenants? Rent places out do they?
Your post here is just another string of non sequiturs and straw man fallacies. I said that something cannot rationally be asserted as a supernatural event or miracle just because we currently can't explain it. Such assertions are argumentum ad ignorantiam fallacies, and thus by definition irrational or illogical. You made this claim above for Buddhists immolating themselves, and for the myth of Fatima.
You are dishonestly refusing to address the fact you based both claims on a known logical fallacy.
"You don’t care about Buddhism? Sad."
Not even remotely what I said, I said I have no interest in your or Buddhism's unevidenced and subjective claims for esoteric truth. Anymore than I marvel that people have encountered mermaids just because they care to make the claim. In order for me to believe a claim sufficient objective evidence would need to demonstrated for it. You can sneer at this all you want, but at least I approach all ideas with an open mind, and without bias.
@ Sheldon
Speaking of Buddhism, are you aware that Buddhists claim to have access to special states of mind not usually available to the average person? I'm not talking about miracles and the supernatural stuff. These states of mind that many have reached, have been evidenced and compared. The training proceeds along certain stages that can be verified by common characteristics experienced by others who have already done it, which indicate, achievement of those stages of development. In other words, everyone who does the training properly experiences the same type of things, that can be corroborated by others.
There are clear indications from objective testing, of vast improvements in areas such as concentration, cognitive function, emotional maturity, sensory acuity, attentional awareness.
Does that sort of thing not interest you at all? Do you not believe that's possible?
Here is one example from many studies in this area.
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC1697747/
Argument from ignorance is not an argument, it is just ignorance.
Dark matter, as well as dark energy, is an example of making things up as you go along, to fit your theory. The current mainstream cosmological theory is very inadequate. Full of gaps and inconsistencies.
Personally I am more keen on the electric universe theory. Also, I am also very keen on the Dynamic,Steady State, Universe theory, where the universe's structure is cellular.
Are observable universe is a single cell, in an eternal, infinite sized universe of cells. The 'missing' mass will only be accounted for when we can see the edges of our cell which contain far more mass than we can currently see. This is also the reason our expansion is speeding up. It is being attracted by the far greater masses at the edges. A good way of visualising what I talking about in regards the cell like structure would be to look at https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rayleigh%E2%80%93B%C3%A9nard_convection There is a small video on the right that shows the kind of motion I'm talking about. Just imagine it in three dimensions.
" I am more keen on the electric universe theory. "
It's not a theory, not in the scientific sense.
"The electric universe concept does not meet the National Academy of Sciences' definition of a "theory," which is "a comprehensive explanation of some aspect of nature that is supported by a vast body of evidence" and "can be used to make predictions about natural events or phenomena that have not yet been observed."
https://motherboard.vice.com/en_us/article/nz7neg/electric-universe-theo...
Hi Sheldon, I like the show too.
I am well aware that the National Academy of Sciences do not think of this as a theory. It contradicts nearly everything about their own 'excepted' theory. The number of people who agree with a certain proposition does not make it immediately true. Agreements in science have been consensual throughout history, only later to be discarded as outdated.
I am not going to say you should believe the electric 'theory'. They do have a vast body of evidence though, and can, and have, made predictions with it. I'm just offering it as an alternative which I feel has credit, and is worth investigating.
There are very real problems in changing the consensus though, having a pay check at the end of the month, being a primary one.
The point about the National Academy had nothing to do with numbers, and they offered the standard scientific definitions of a theory.
The article goes on...
"At best, the 'electric universe' is a solution in search of a problem; it seeks to explain things we already understand very well through gravity, plasma and nuclear physics, and the like," said astronomer Phil Plait, who runs the blog Bad Astronomy at Slate. "At worst it's sheer crackpottery like homeopathy and astrology, making claims clearly contradicted by the evidence."
If it is an alternative to established scientific theories then it would need to be objectively evidenced and falsify those theories. Just because science is capable of being in error doesn't mean established theories are in error, this is the kind of flaky reasoning I hear creationists use all the time.
From the article again...
"Thornhill began his obsessive study of cosmic electricity in high school, when he read Immanuel Velikovsky's book Worlds in Collision, published in 1950.
Velikovsky was an author known mostly for his controversial "comparative mythology" books, which recast and reinterpreted ancient history. In Worlds in Collision, he said that Jupiter ejected to Venus around 1500 BCE. From there, the newborn planet flew close to Earth, causing all sorts of catastrophes. When Venus came back around a half-century later, it stopped Earth's spin (briefly), making for a long night."
"The resulting disasters, Velikovsky claimed, showed up in mythology around the world. Astrophysicists pointed out that this Jupiter-born Venus idea violated theories about orbits and gravity. But Velikovsky had gone rogue: He suggested gravity didn't cause orbits. Electricity did."
Hmm, good luck reversing the work of both Newton and Einstein. I must remain dubious. I can't say i find it very compelling. I shall keep watching the news.
I do appreciate your comments. I love this shit lol. Sorry for the crudity. I never stop marvelling at the invention of the internet to bring the entire world together to share knowledge and opinion. Anyhoo, I digress.
You do understand that no scientist knows what gravity is? If they did, we would have a unified field theory. Bringing together the four forces.
I don't know if you have looked into the electric universe theory or not, I suspect you haven't, because of your quick google search for an article on it. I myself am not really that informed on it. I have only done cursory investigations of it. One of the things I have noted is, they do not discount gravity. They except gravity as a force. However, they place it secondary to the force of electromagnetism/plasma.
If like me, you are really interested in this sort of thing, I suspect you are, I would give it a look, for the sake of curiosity, and not expect the "news" to announce it for you.
Thanks again.
Well I am familiar with the electric universe non-sense; and that is exactly what it is. It violates just about every observation made in astronomy, chemistry, and even just daily life. It's not even pseudo-science.
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