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...you realize that you are talking to a christian right?
To whom are you saying this?
If to Greensnake: Its "Religion logic" that he mocked you with.
If to me: Meh.
Hawk Flint,
Meaning?
Meaning, I believe in miracles. And it was addressed to Greensnake.
Are you going to insert miracles whenever reality creates problems for your theology? Being human, which is to err, what if you misinterpret a passage? (How many ways have Christians interpreted the Bible? Can they all be right?) You, or those before you who set up the doctrines you believe in, may have strayed considerably from the truth. However, you will never discover your errors because miracles (or God's inscrutability) will always "validate" them. For a truth seeker, that has to be sad.
...you do realize that you are talking to highly educated intelligent people that don't believe in a god right?
Greensnake - "Bible Problem #1. No problem, God created a miracle!
Bible Problem #2. No problem, God created a miracle!
Bible Problem #3. No problem, God created a miracle!
Is there anything left to discuss?"
exactly! The invocation of magic is the end of the discussion, not the start. The only question remaining to ask someone who believes that is:
Why would a god use magic in such a special way as to make it look like it wasn't magic to people who investigate it? That would be sabotage.
Kataclismic,
This would seem to be a reasonable interpretation. However, I suspect that the ancients viewed skylight as being independent of the sun. The sun was created to rule over the skylight (with a greater light). Before the sun was made, the skylight was divided up into segments of lightness and darkness. Today, that would seem bizarre because we know very well where the skylight comes from! But, how did the ancients look at it? They undoubtedly saw that the sky brightened before the sun made its appearance, suggesting independence in their minds. Then the moon, as a source of light!, was created to rule over the night. Consequently, in a later passage, when the heavenly lights are darkened the moon must be darkened as well--because it is an independent source of light! The inspired author(s) didn't know that the moon's light comes from the sun!
Ask, instead, why the two creation accounts (Genesis I and Genesis II) are in the opposite order?
Genesis 1:1-2
"In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth."
(This is a statement of what He did.)
"The earth was formless and empty, and darkness was over the surface of the deep, and the Spirit of God hovered over the waters."
(Here is the beginning of an explanation of what He did.)
"(This is a statement of what He did.)"
That's a point of veiw. Not a fact.
"(Here is the beginning of an explanation of what He did.)"
Explanations ussualy come after summaries, do they not?
"Explanations ussualy come after summaries, do they not?"
Not in this case.
That's your interpretation. It's my understanding that ancient scrolls sometimes used the first verse as a kind of title. Thus, Genesis 1:1 tells us what that scroll is all about. The actual creation account then begins. "When God began to create." is carried in the footnotes to The New Oxford Annotated Bible: New Revised Standard Version With The Apacrypha" An Ecumenical Study Bible".
Notice that the dark waters of primeval chaos are ALREADY present. There is no creation ex nilhilo. This is in full accordance with Babylonian cosmology!
HawkFlint: The Biblical account of creation is clearly a myth and not the only such myth to exist. Every culture has theirs. Nothing special about yours.
@ Hawk Flint
Thank you for your reply and for clarifying:
"I believe in the Biblical God, who I believe made science. And no that's not because I don't have much knowledge of it. I don't think about the origins of the universe much, but so far I have come to believe that God used science as well as supernatural powers to create the universe and life on earth."
Your description of your belief suggests that you don't interpret the Bible literally.
Since there is no instruction of how to know what parts are parable/metaphor and what parts should be taken literally, I wonder how people determine what to believe.
For example:
Do you believe that Jesus actually walked on water or is that a parable of some sort?
"Do you believe that Jesus actually walked on water or is that a parable of some sort?"
I believe that Christ actually walked on water, but that can be turned into a metaphor as well. For example: When a christian (Peter) focuses on the waves of life that threaten to drown us, we will sink (when Peter saw the waves he began to sink. He lost focus of Christ.). But when we focus on Christ, we can walk on water (we can do well in life, not be afraid etc.).
A poem I made, a nonet (which has nine verses, the first verse starting with nine syllables, the second eight, the third seven, the fourth six, the fifth with five, the sixth with four, the seventh with three, the eighth with two, and the ninth with one.), features this too.
[Had to edit this too Lol.]
"Dusted me off" in line 6 is odd. People pulled out of the sea aren't dusty. You need to rethink that line. And I'd change the commas to periods at the ends of lines 1, 3 and 4.
I like the repeated internal rhyming of "He" and "me", and also the use of progressively shorter lines to narrow the poem down to its ultimate focus.
The sentiment leaves me cold, though.
Good point. Ugh, I should've thought about that. Got any suggestions?
"Gave me breath"
"Gave me CPR"
It has to be four syllables...and serious. Think. Someone who just saved your life, brought you out of storms of life.... Also, the sand that the person was dragged on could have been Dusted off.
[Edited]
Four syllables?
"Called 911"
It's your poem. I think I gave you good hint with "breath." You figure it out.
I said "seriosly." And how's,"Gave me my breath?"
"Gave me his breath" makes more sense in the context.
Note: Lower case "h" on "his" as far as I'm concerned.
Your asking us to come up with something to fit a biblical premise?
It doesn't have to be "a biblical premise." The poem can also be about a man saving an unloved and guilty woman.
Well the bit about walking on water rather gives it away, doesn't it?
You can't justify "dusted off" with sand. Dust doesn't act or feel like wet sand at all. And people who've nearly drowned don't worry about sand on them. If they're conscious, they hug the sand. The feeling of sand under you after a near-death experience in the sea is wonderful. So you should dump the sand and the dust, and think of a better metaphor for that line. Think of your rescuer breathing life into the rescued person.
BTW, I often see people apparently walking on water where I live. They're actualy standing on paddle boards, but from the shore they look like they're standing up. You can get the same illusion with people walking on sand bars. The sea, including Galilee, plays all kinds of tricks on your eyes and mind.
"Walking on water" doesn't mean that they have to be a diety. The whole poem was metaphorical.
"You can't justify "dusted off" with sand. Dust doesn't act or feel like wet sand at all. And people who've nearly drowned don't worry about sand on them. If they're conscious, they hug the sand. The feeling of sand under you after a near-death experience in the sea is wonderful. So you should dump the sand and the dust, and think of a better metaphor for that line. Think of your rescuer breathing life into the rescued person."
Thanks for the info. I should ask more people and do more thinking before finishing these.
Hawk Flint,
I like your poem, but as a poem.
Hawk Flint,
"Did God create the Big Bang?"
This view is along the lines of Deism which was very popular around the time of Thomas Jefferson.
Finding no credibility in the Bible, your question sounds to me a lot like "Did the Great Green Spider (whose current abode is in the clouds of Jupiter) create the Big Bang?" My first reaction would be that this is a rather odd question. But could a magical Great Green Spider, living outside of time and space, create the Big Bang? Gee! I don't know! About then I'd smell the coffee and ask myself why I am even considering this question.
You see it as a serious question because you have so much invested in Christian mythology. Without that programming you would see a "Great Green Spider" even as I do!
What do we really know? We know that the universe is expanding. If we run the clock backwards, the universe would be contracting, and there is no known force to stop it from collapsing all the way into a tiny space of unbelievable temperature--the Big Bang. We also have some exceptionally decisive evidence in support of this expansion of the universe from a tiny point. So, as scientific matters go, the Big Bang is real enough. Trying to argue what happened "before" it, if there is any kind of "before," can only be informed speculation (in compliance with nature's laws) at best. That's the current situation.
Since we are on the very frontier of knowledge here, it is ludicrous to declare that no natural explanation exists and then insert one's own unproven mythology on the basis of a false dichotomy. That's called the "god of the gaps" error. You are free to speculate in any way you wish, but if you want us to take it seriously (as Gabriel does) you will have to go "scientific." In short, you can't use "God" before proving that "God" exists.
"You see it as a serious question because you have so much invested in Christian mythology. Without that programming you would see a "Great Green Spider" even as I do!"
Your texts on the Great green spider Gilganorshiayulamethulabehwaquelleraguuuurtinatheballerina must be interesting. Can you send me a link?
"So, as scientific matters go, the Big Bang is real enough. Trying to argue what happened "before" it, if there is any kind of "before," can only be informed speculation (in compliance with nature's laws) at best. That's the current situation."
You don't know if there was a "before", and the laws of nature are God's to decide.
"You are free to speculate in any way you wish, but if you want us to take it seriously (as Gabriel does) you will have to go "scientific." In short, you can't use "God" before proving that "God" exists."
I don't care if I'm not taken seriously. But even if I'm not taken seriously, these arguments are educational. And as I implied, I'm taking opinions.
"You don't know if there was a "before", and the laws of nature are God's to decide."
Don't come talking all high and mighty when you can't even prove your gods existence. That's just bad taste.
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