Hello,
Okay, as you may know me as someone with a very messed up mind so please don't mind about this question. I just need good answers about how any of the following scenarios might be alternatively possible apart from the religion's own explanation
Q1) There's this popular islamic hadith known by most of the muslims that when people die, anybody (could be a christian, hindu or whatever), the angel of death extracts their soul in the direction from toes and right through the head and out of the body from there. So, it is said that when a person's soul is being extracted, he is still conscious and the soul extraction process is painful or peaceful according to the deeds of the person.
The main point in this story is that it claims that EVERY PERSON WHO DIES has his EYES LOOKING UPWARDS. This indicates that the person was looking at his soul in the final moments as it came out of his body and because the soul comes out of the head and the eyes were looking upward at that time (Watching the soul go out), every dead person's eyes are looking upward.
The hadith claims that every person watches his soul go out so EVERY dead person is looking upwards on his death.
Now, fortunately, I have never seen a dead body so I have no idea about this. But is this true that every dead body's eyes are looking upwards? If they are, any explanation?
Q2) Okay so there's this fucking story which I used to hear from every single person in my family and scholars before converting to atheism. It was about god's forgiveness. (Islamic story). It originated from a very popular scholar in Pakistan on TV. He narrated that there was a woman who ran the business of selling prostitutes for money. Eventually, she realized it's all bad and sinful so she started praying for forgiveness except that her prayer also said "if you have forgiven me, take my life". So, she basically added a condition that if she was forgiven, let her die so she may know that her prayer is fulfilled.
She died on the 20th day of continuously praying.
Q3) There was this young girl about to get married. She was all dressed up and had full make-up on her face. As soon as the mother calls her to come and sit in the car as they'll be late, she hears the wretched call to prayer. Well, the girl says no, I can't come now. I will pray now and then I'll come. Mom argues that all her make-up will be gone so just pray later. But the girl doesn't listen, she washes her face, does what she has to do to prepare for the prayer and starts praying.
She dies while in prostration.
Ok, in summary, I wanna know about what's up with every person looking above on their death, is this even true or just made-up bullshit? What about these sudden deaths that seem to be so islamic in nature?
Please, I'm still in the process of dispelling the islamic brainwashing from my brain. So have mercy and give me a good explanation that my 18 year old brain will understand.
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Even people without eyes? Also your eyes typically look forward. When your lying down (when your dead) forward looking eyes point upward. Anyway, I bet Chimp3 has seen more dead bodies than most (due to his work). Maybe he can address this.
The other two sound like urban legends.
I scanned this admittedly, but on the eyes thing, your eyes can roll to the back of your head when you die or even simply when you pass out very normal. Depends a lot on how you "collapse" however.
You mean like this?
rmfr
@Arakish
Great movie.
The likelihood that everyone dies looking in the same direction is insanely unlikely. Even if this were true and we could evidence it objectively all we'd have is a phenomenon we can't explain, nothing more. I don't fully understand what you mean by " sudden deaths that seem to be so Islamic in nature?" but people die all the time, and many of many of them are sudden, well they would be sudden wouldn't they? I fail to see how this can infer anything about any religious beliefs to be honest.
The best advice I can give you is to treat all claims the same, and be sceptical about them, if they are presented without objective evidence then disbelieve them until they can be properly evidenced. Also try not to stress over things, this is what religions do to coerce people into believing what they claim, they put pressure on you when you are young by making it seem like you are making the most important decision there is, but there is no evidence to support their claims.
Hey, Seek. Rushed for time, but wanted to get a couple of words in here for you real quick.
I have seen more dead bodies and have witnessed more people in the process of dying than I care to remember. As a result, I can assure you a person's eyes are NOT always looking upward at the time of death. Depending on the cause of the death, the individual may not have any eyes at all. Sometimes the eyes are bulged wide open staring straight forward as if surprised or shocked. Other times one or both eyes may be hanging out loosely from the sockets. Then there are those with their eyes closed who look as though they are merely taking a peaceful nap. So, as you can see, it varies. My apologies for being so graphic, but you asked, and there is really no other way to accurately explain it.
Also, have you ever seen anybody faint/pass out? Ever notice how the eyes roll upward just before they collapse? (Commonly known as "eyes rolling to the back of the head".) That person is not dying. That person is only fainting due to stress, or a medical condition, or some problem. They are not watching the soul leave the body. The eyes rolling upward is merely a physiological reaction. Plain and simple.
And just speculating here, but I would be very willing to bet that the observations of people's eyes looking upward at death happened LONG before that passage of scripture was ever written. In other words, that description of the soul leaving the body was written to match the observations, not the other way around.
Prayer is ruinous and not effective, unlike following a results-based methodology.
Do not take anyone's word, you have the ability to investigate.
For the eyes rolling tale, the best way to investigate is to ask someone who has seen many dead bodies. For example, Tin-Man, or a coroner without a religious bias.
So she died on the 20th day. Who? Investigate, don't just take some story at face value. Find out who it was, and the cause of death. And if you find there is no answer on who it was, then it's just a made-up story. The next time someone tells you this tale, ask them for specifics, who was it, when did she die?
The third tale also requires evidence.
Being religious requires blindly believing everything you are told. Being an atheist is mainly about a critical mind, asking the questions, thinking carefully and sorting the BS from what is proven real.
@Seek3R: The main point in this story is that it claims that EVERY PERSON WHO DIES has his EYES LOOKING UPWARDS.
Does the Hadith mention people in the Southern Hemisphere?
Brilliant. 10/10, seriously.
I have seen hundreds of dead bodies. (I am a registered nurse, not a mass murdeter.) I have never seen any corprse with the eyes looking up. It is one of my tasks to assess for the lack of life signs. Pupils are dilated not constricted. The dead stare right back into your eyes but no one is home.
"The dead stare right back into your eyes but no one is home."
The soul has moved on no doubt. Now if they are resuscitated do they have to manage "sans soul" as it were?
A deity that wanted us to believe this nonsense would surely have created a soul that was empirically detectable.
Unless God is "fucking with us" of course.
Hello everybody.
Thank you so much for your replies.
Fortunately, I've never seen anyone faint either lol except in movies so yeah I'm aware of the rolling eyes that has been described above.
I too believe that the direction of the pupils on the death depends on their position on death. A man could die looking straight at his loved one, or perhaps keep looking upwards like a moron hoping for god to appear. Yeah, that last one is my latest theory on anyone looking upward i.e. they are hoping for god or some angel to appear but their hope faints as they die away and nothing special happens so that's for those who look upwards.
And as for the last 2 stories, no. There is absolutely no evidence, name, cause of death, public news, facebook stories, any kind of known evidence to what the story. In the case of both the stories, the islamic scholars narrated it.
By the way, I found myself looking at a picture yesterday with a hippopotamus sitting over a man and a cloud over him that says "What human?". (This was a meme by the way). I was able to unconsciously, without any effort, invent the entire story about it within milliseconds and narrate it to relate and connect that unrelated meme picture to my invented story.
For those of you who have seen the movie "The Usual Suspects" may know what I am talking about and the ability of the human mind to instantly create extremely believable and relatable stories when a certain topic is being talked about.
It's just that I prefer asking the experienced and more matured people here rather than believing myself. Ofcourse, I would love to believe myself but 18 years of brainwashing doesn't allow you to perfectly believe yourself as some doubts always remain.
As for Tin-Man and Chimp3, I thank both of you from the bottom of my heart.
You guys have probably no idea as to how important each of your word is to me. I've always looked for non-biased answers and this website has been a blessing for me in the search of objective answers to the bullshit that has been impregnated inside my mind for decades.
@Seek
Happy to help, my good man. By the way, a little something else I picked up on in your last post I would like to address real quick, if you don't mind....
Re: "....or perhaps keep looking upwards like a moron hoping for god to appear. Yeah, that last one is my latest theory on anyone looking upward i.e. they are hoping for god or some angel to appear but their hope faints as they die away...."
It may interest you to know that the whole eyes going up reaction is totally involuntary. It is not a conscious act. To put it more simply, when an individual is at that point of fainting (or dying, whichever the case may be) they have zero control over their body, much less any control over where the eyes look. Simply a non-voluntary physiological reaction, young man. That's it.
Look at algebe's post above. Up is a relative term, someone looking up in in one part of the world would be looking in the opposite direction to someone looking up in another part of the world. The claim implies it's anachronistic to an era before humans learned that the earth is rotund. A popular belief among many early religions, and Islam has plagiarized a great deal from earlier religions.
From Wikipedia
Urban legend
An urban legend, urban myth, urban tale, or contemporary legend is a form of modern folklore. It usually consists of fictional stories, often presented as true, with macabre or humorous elements, rooted in local popular culture. These legends can be used for entertainment purposes, as well as semi-serious explanations for random events such as disappearances and strange objects.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Urban_legend
Hi guys,
Thanks for the clarifications. I just want to confirm if I have understood correctly:
1) The eye movement is an involuntary and a physiological reaction which can be witnessed on death or a sudden unconsciousness
2) This reaction is entirely dependent and can happen differently due to either: a medical condition, shock/surprise, cause of death, other causes
By medical condition I mean e.g. blood supply deprivation to brain (brain ischemia). I read about this and found out that a severe form of this condition can cause eyes to roll upwards on death.
By shock or surprise as well as cause of death I mean e.g. someone known comes and strangles you from the back. Since strangling does not cause instant death, the victim will certainly try to look behind as to who is the criminal and die while looking behind/upwards. It could also be someone in front, causing the eyes to keep looking straight forward.
By other causes I mean bell's phenomenon. If you don't know what that is, it's simply a medical defensive condition in majority of the world's population that causes eyes to roll upwards when they close. So if a person closed his eyes before death and a doctor tries to open them, he'll notice that the pupils are looking upwards.
But to be honest, I did some separate research on this medical websites and surprisingly, there's no doctor or nurse who has ever seen such a sight in their life. On Quora I read that this is a myth which has never happened in real life but is popularly used in horror movies for dramatic effect and whichever movie has anything to do with souls (I just saw one yesterday: Annabelle Creation where a dead guy is looking upwards).
However, I think after all the research and reading your answers again, it is not impossible for this reaction to occur. BUT, most of you have said that it's an involuntary reaction. So, that's that then.
Perhaps it is genetic, but both myself and my mom have personally had other people witness our eyes rolling up/back into our heads when we have passed out.
I also unfortunately seen first hand someone have a seizure (yep eyes did that thing!) and another time when someone was choking on dinner badly enough to pass out.
All of which leads me to believe plenty of nurses and medical staff have seen the eyes roll backwards thing lots of times. Go volunteer at a blood donation clinic, I am willing to bet you will see it all the time.
Ever seen somebody's eyes roll back in the midst of a seizure? There are other reasons why this happens and some of them cause death. Just a side note.
Yes, that's exactly why I mentioned severe brain ischemia. Actually, any kind of this condition can be bad because it deprives the blood supply and exhausts your brain. If it lasts too long, you'll be dead before you know it.
When it comes to lack of oxygen, the brain dies first. A real benefit to reduce the pain of death in most of human history only now with sophisticated life saving tools is the fact the brain dies from lack of oxygen so quickly actually a hinderance. The brain uses an enormous portion of our oxygen and calories for its size. It is also why medical field determines death from brain activity.
The body can take quite a while do die, almost indefinitely if you keep providing it oxygen/nutrient rich blood. It can last decades in the case of saving organs from someone who is brain dead.
We have not yet touched on the fact that on death, the body can poop and pass gas.
https://www.medicaldaily.com/what-forensic-scientist-doesnt-tell-you-7-p...
Oh, that's because every part of our body worships Allah. So, you know the gas and poop and probably urine as well comes out to reach out the heavens and prostrate to the one that never existed :))))