I am a former Christian. This is something that is still on my mind so I would be interested to hear opinions from any believers or non believers.
Is faith believing in something without proof/evidence?
This confuses me for a variety of reasons.
Firstly, if faith ISN'T believing without proof, then where exactly is the evidence that Christianity or the Bible is accurate/real/correct? It's more or less disproven by history and science, but I feel like it's sort of like a circular-logic for someone to say "Well, it's believing without proof so it doesn't matter."
Secondly - and the main reason - is I don't understand why the standard of proof/evidence is lowered so drastically as soon as we start discussing religion. When in any other part of your life would you believe in something without convincing proof/evidence? I don't have faith or trust in my family or friends for no reason at all. There's evidence over the years of them being there for me, being supportive, being good people etc... Same with belief/faith in myself, I guess. over the years there is evidence of me being able to achieve certain things (aware of how privilege comes into this) so it's not like I'm believing in myself with absolute no basis in reality.
But then as soon as we start talking about religion I just feel like all logic/rational thought is completely thrown out the window.
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But then as soon as we start talking about religion I just feel like all logic/rational thought is completely thrown out the window.
For theists you are bang on.
Others not so much.
I would suggest that entirely depends on the claim or assertion being made.
For example, stating that you have given your child some money to buy goods from your local store and having faith that he/she will return the correct change, is vastly different to say.
I have faith that an inter-dimensional being created all life, despite the evidence to the contrary.
The assertion made in conjunction with the burden of proof required, dictates the level of faith one must have.
@ TheBlindWatchmaker: HERE IS A PERFECT EXAMPLE OF THE BULLSHIT YOU GET FROM THEISTS. THE FALLACY HERE IS CALLED "EQUIVOCATION FALLACY." TBW equates faith with trust or hope and not with what the Bible says is "Evidence for things not seen." He has bastardized the word and its BIBLICAL by attempting to blur its definition to make a point. THIS IS DISHONEST BULLSHIT. THIS IS THE WAY THEISTS ARGUE.
If I give a child some money and ask him to go to the store for me, it is because that child is known to me, has a history of trust with me, or possibly because I am attempting to give him a chance to be trusted and hope he can be trusted. IT HAS NOTHING TO DO WITH FAITH AT ALL.
The assertion made in conjunction with the burden of proof required, dictates the level of trust or hope one may have.
TheBlindWatchmaker is an active troll on the site. Read his posts and you will get good at noticing fallacies, circular logic and inane assertions.
What an absolutely ridiculous and horrible comment to make.
Firstly, it is 'she', not he. So evidently, you have not read my previous posts, demonstrating your own blatant dishonesty.
Secondly, I have never trolled my fellow atheists on this site and have regularly posted in the affirmative to my non belief in deities.
If you have evidence to the contrary, then please provide it, instead of being the usual mouth piece that frequent so many atheist forums and giving us all a bad name by not being able to hold a civil conversation without resorting to rude behaviour.
If I am being accused of being a theist and/or a troll, then I simply put myself at the mercy of the admins and moderators and ask you to delete me, if you find this is true.
Failing this, perhaps those very same people ought to address their members for their outright, rude and obnoxious behaviour.
That is completely at of line Cognostic.
Perhaps I made a mistake in my reply here and I'm happy to revisit this, but I will not be accused by some rude idiot, of something I am clearly not, nor something I did not intentionally mean and certainly of being something that I clearly am not.
All I was trying to state is there are different interpretations of 'faith' but none of which lead to any evidence of a deity and I stand by this.
Hi Rory321: RE: Is faith believing without proof?
Well, lets see what the Bible says, and what most Christians believe.
"(Hebrews 11:1 KJV ) Now faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen."
So if you are a theist, "FAITH" is all you need; however, faith is not now, nor has it ever been, a path to truth. All religions, all over the planet, survive on faith.
Now lets see what else you have written.
Is faith believing in something without proof/evidence?
Is it? NO Is that the way theists use it? YES When you pin a theist down with facts and evidence they generally revert to "Well, you just have to have faith." That is the only thing they have.
"more or less disproven by history and science,"
History and science do not disprove the Bible. History demonstrates that there are errors in the bible. History shows us that the bible has been rewritten many times by each new generation that used it. History demonstrates that there are many gospels, not just the ones officially selected, with many weird and unusual stories. History tells us that Paul was known as the "Great Deceiver" by Christians who disagreed with his teachings (See: Damascus Documents)
Science tells us that there are no facts supporting religious claims. None. We have no good evidence for the existence of Moses or any of the other Patriarchs. The current consensus is that they did not exist. David was the king of a bunch of sheep herders. Jesus at best was an itinerant preacher, if in fact he existed at all. Science shows us there is no evidence for a souls, spirits, Gods, ghosts, or anything mystical or supernatural. When looked at, there is nothing at all to investigate. There are only debunked claims made by the religious and the mystics. This leaves us with no reason to believe them at all.
RE: "I don't understand why the standard of proof/evidence is lowered so drastically as soon as we start discussing religion. "
They must lower the standard or they would be atheists.
RE: "But then as soon as we start talking about religion I just feel like all logic/rational thought is completely thrown out the window."
That sounds about right. Welcome to the boards.
Hi Rory321: My Bad! The Blind Watchmaker is not a troll. My post is mostly wrong.
RE: Blind Watchmaker: If you have evidence to the contrary, then please provide it, (DONE)
"The assertion made in conjunction with the burden of proof required, dictates the level of faith one must have."
@TheBlindWatchmaker
YOU ARE CORRECT! I WAS OUT OF LINE CALLING YOU A TROLL. APOLOGIES. I don't really respond to people much but to the posts. I found the above comment absolutely ludicrous. It is in fact a misuse of the word "faith" and an equivocation fallacy when compared to the way "Theists" use the word "Faith." "Faith" is their fallback position when they have no evidence for a claim.
"Faith" according to the theist position, "IS" the evidence of things not seen."
I submit to you that we all do just fine without it. I do not have faith in my life. I don't need it. We have other words for for it that are more realistic. "Hope" "Trust." "Expectations" "desire" "wish" etc.....
I do apologize for the slur and was obviously NOT ON MY GAME at the time of the post. I will be more cautious in the future.
Cheers!
@ Cog
I bet I know what you were doing....and a very nice apology you disgusting poo flinger.
I lub you longtime too.....
@Old man shouts ...: Like it's the first time I ever slipped and fell in my own poo. I need to be more like Tin and look at who people are before responding to silliness in their posts. "Being overly polite is not an option!" He he he he he he ......
...*stunned look of shock*... HOLY HELL, COG! WTF, you mangy ape? Why are going all "guns out" on TBW??? Wait... Are you off your Exlax again?... *glaring suspiciously*... Dammit, how many times do we have to tell you to not let all that shit get backed up inside your smelly ass?... *shaking head sadly*...
Hey, TBW, if you like, Old Man and I would be happy to hoist Cog up by his big toes and let you fart in his face a few times... *reconsidering*... Oh, hell. Disregard that. He might like it too much. Hmmmm.... Ah, better idea. We can tie him up and glue his eyelids open and force him to watch as you incinerate his collection of Playchimp magazines. Just say the word, and we can make it happen.
@Tin-Man
Jeeze, is the punishment proportionate to the crime? I am fine with hoisting cog by his big toes, and the farting, even the gluing his eyelids open, but making him watch while you destroy perfectly good playchimp magazines? I mean he did fling poo, but Playchimp magazines, they are collectibles now.
*examines the magazines*
Never mind. Burn it all.
Jesus fuckin’ Christ! Can’t you guys be serious for once! I mean just once would be nice...
Uhmmm ...had this memorized as a JW ... don’t know where it is in the bible but, wait for it....
“Faith is the assured expectation of things hoped for....”
Gotta love it!
Edited to add that this isn’t suppose to sound harsh... ;)
@Whitefire Re: "Jesus fuckin’ Christ! Can’t you guys be serious for once! I mean just once would be nice..."
Sorry, but I'm serious only one day out of every other week out of every other month. And this ain't one of those days... *thumbs in ears while wiggling fingers upwards*... *sticking out tongue*... *shaking hiny side-to-side*...
@Whitefire Re: "Jesus fuckin’ Christ! Can’t you guys be serious for once! I mean just once would be nice..."
It amazes me that you don't think they're serious. Why do you think I ran away to Korea?
@ Whitefire
"Jesus fuckin’ Christ! Can’t you guys be serious for once! I mean just once would be nice..."
Unfortunately, no one told you the unwritten rule in this forum, to never have any liquids in your mouth when you read any posts. For me, once it was milk and I sprayed a lot out my nose and over my keyboard.
@Rory321
Faith: strong belief in God or in the doctrines of a religion, based on spiritual apprehension rather than proof.
The definition explicitly excludes "proof".
The only anchor a theist has is faith. Period. Period. Period.
I hear Christians say well the Bible says this. No. No. No. Bibles don't talk. You read words and process them. If you have been indoctrinated into the Christian doctrine, you have been conditioned to believe the words in the absence of scrutiny.
If I one cannot see it, measure it, weigh it , touch it, hear it or smell it, it only exists based on "faith".
RE: "The definition explicitly excludes "proof".
As proof is a mathematical concept, I nearly agree. The definition explicitly excludes reliable evidence that might lead us to some kind of proof. Face it, the evidence is 'SHIT." (And faith is NOT, hope, trust, desire. or any of the other words the Christian apologists try to insert in place of "FAITH" when claiming "We all have it." NO, WE DON'T!
@Bright Raven
Indeed.
You seem new, so I'll use a Martin Luther quote of which I'm rather fond :
“Reason is a whore, the greatest enemy that faith has; it never comes to the aid of spiritual things, but more frequently than not struggles against the divine Word, treating with contempt all that emanates from God.”
― Martin Luther
Insist on using only the bible? Fair enough.
No less a person than Jesus himself, to Thomas Didymus, aka 'doubting Thomas' .Because Thomas very reasonably imo did not believe Jesus had become undead.
John 20:29 "Jesus saith unto him, Thomas, because thou hast seen me, thou hast believed: blessed are they that have not seen, and yet have believed. " (KJV)
If one is to be a Christian, blind faith is pretty much required. Ignorance ,(lack of education) poverty and stupidity are advantages.
)))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))0))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))
OT It has long been my view that Jews did not write the Gospels .This is because of some of the stupid things Jesus is said to have done.
The occasion of the woman about to be stoned for adultery. Jesus begins with the earliest example of Tu quo que of which I am aware .('you too' or 'appeal to hypocrisy') he then presumes to forgive the woman tells her to bugger off.
The problem with that whole incident; She had broken the law of Moses .The penalty for adultery was death by stoning. Had Jesus
interfered he would himself have been stoned to death for blasphemy. Especially if he had begun by calling everyone a hypocrite. .I think that was as likely to annoy people as to shame them .
Doing his chewy with the money changers in the temple .The term' temple' is a bit loose.Those people would have ben situated in an outer area of the temple complex in which there was a market.
The money changers served a vital function; They changed Roman and other currency which had human figures on them to Jewish shekels, which did not. (images of people being forbidden under mosaic law) Shekels were needed to buy animals for sacrifice. In reality, l temple guards would have thrashed Jesus and thrown him out of the temple complex.
The above is my understanding . I welcome correction if I am factually in error. Not from a christian apologist because they a have a personal agenda . In my experience such people are also intellectually dishonest or at the very least suffering from cognitive dissonance and/or confirmation bias.
@CRANKY47: re: John 20:29 "Jesus saith unto him, Thomas, because thou hast seen me, thou hast believed: blessed are they that have not seen, and yet have believed. " (KJV)
I always took this as the theist rational for Pascal's Wager. Even if it makes no sense at all, believe so you can go to heaven and have cake and ice cream.
@rory321
Faith is belief without evidence. The bible is the claim, not the evidence.
@xenoview: RE: Faith is belief without evidence. The bible is the claim, not the evidence.
I second that sentiment! Exactly!
@Rory321
Hello,
I think this is one of the strongest points that support Theism and the point start of faith : DEATH
The problem is death, i know that everyone knows this but i think what ever you do in life means absolutely nothing,
if you're going to die at the end.
It doesn't matter how much trillions of money you accumulate or achievements you have done as long as you are going
to die at the end, all the good time and enjoyments you had your going to forget them probably before even you die, every thing is equal to 0 when you die, it's like you have never lived, don't tell me that your lover or your children or what ever will make what you left mean
something after you die, because they will die too, and even if they don't die it doesn't mean nothing because you're dead, your no
longer have consciousness to see what they do after you.
At the end of this universe everything will go to 0 so what is the purpose ? what is the meaning ? now you start your way of finding
the meaning if you want to know, and you need nobody to tell you anything, otherwise your going to die with out meaning (no offense), and after that build your faith that's my opinion.
Most of people think that finding evidence of god is step one to start there faith, i think this is step one.
god is an idea that you might conclude after you think about this.
Honestly i think we have problem with the definition of god that's why we are deluded.
@ Nogba
"Honestly i think we have problem with the definition of god that's why we are deluded."
So what is your definition of "god"?
I am going to borrow from a famous atheist web show, and ask .. do you own a car? One day it will break down and go to the scrap yard. So why not just scrap it now?
Why are so many theists obsessed with death? Geesh, as an atheist this is a topic I never run across in my daily life, 99% of the time it is only around theists. So what if I will die one day? I am alive right now and I will extract as much from my life to the last breath.
The threat of death and the promise of an afterlife offered by religion has absolutely ZERO evidence to back it up. So instead of enjoying each moment and everyone that comes into contact, religion entices one to huddle in a corner in fear while fingering their prayer beads.
I am not afraid of death, I am afraid of not living a quality life.
So Nogba, peddling your fearmongering does not work for me, nor I suspect most atheists. And I definitely am not desperate enough to grasp onto an imaginary friend and place that is pure imagination and not real, because I fear death.
@Nogba: "The problem is death, i know that everyone knows this but i think what ever you do in life means absolutely nothing,
if you're going to die at the end."
I DON'T KNOW WHY THEISTS ARE SO FUCKING CONFUSED. ( I CHECKED TO MAKE SURE IT WAS A THEIST THIS TIME)
Life does not own you a fucking meaning! Death is not a problem but part of the process of life. If I ask you to find something in this universe, hell - the universe itself, that is going to last forever, you can not do it. What in the hell made you so damn special that you get to have meaning from the universe.
Meaning is what you bring to life. Meaning is what you do. You sit about and bitch about not having meaning and that IS your meaning. You are what you do. Having it matter after you die is completely erroneous. YOU ARE DEAD! We remember a few great people from history, but frankly, we have forgotten and lost a whole lot more than we remember. (Winners write the history books.) Do you remember all the names of all the people killed in all the wars? Where is this meaning you speak of? Who on this planet has achieved this meaning you speak of? You are living a pipe dream and that my friend IS YOUR MEANING.
RE: "It doesn't matter how much trillions of money you accumulate or achievements you have done as long as you are going
to die at the end."
You are demonstrably wrong. Give me a trillion dollars and I will prove it to you. It will matter to me even if I die in the end. It will matter to my friends even if they die in the end. It will matter to the economy even if it dies in the end. With a trillion dollars the meaning of my life will shift, I can absolutely promise you that. Hell, I might buy a baseball team and let Tin and Old Man run it just for fun. Your problem is that you have no idea at all what a live with 'MEANING' looks like. I have lived an amazing life. I have spent my life doing amazing things. I will continue to do so until the day I die and when I die..... (I said this in a previous post but will repeat it because I think Douglas Adams hit the nail on the head.) all I have to say is - "Good bye and thanks for all the fish." It has been a complete joy living this life. The good times and the bad.
RE: "it's like you have never lived."
It was like I never lived before I lived too. So what. I did live and I am happy and contented to have done so. I HAVE LIVED, what's your excuse? Do you understand that 'LIVING' is different than just being 'ALIVE." Anyone can be alive and most people are but not everyone lives.
RE: "At the end of this universe everything will go to 0 so what is the purpose ? what is the meaning ? now you start your way of finding"
Why are you so blind to the reality before you. The purpose of the universe is to be a universe until it is no longer a universe. The purpose of life is to live until it is no longer life. Your purpose is to blindly live your life while bitching that there is no purpose to it. Once again..... YOU ARE WHAT YOU DO. Your purpose is to worry about bullshit that does not matter and insist you want imaginary things that NO ONE HAS. How is that not obvious?
RE: "Honestly i think we have problem with the definition of god that's why we are deluded."
I have to agree! Spot on! Until someone can straighten out that definition of the God thing, we should just not worry about it. Way too many people want to make inane assertions without facts or evidence concerning this God thing and their unsubstantiated, non-verifiable, opinions of it. I fully agree, The Theists, have a problem with their definition of these God things and THAT IS WHY THEY ARE SO FUCKING DELUDED!!! GREAT POINT.
@Cog
Ohh hey... on this baseball team you buy, can I be an "assistant coach?"
I would not actually coach anything, I am well aware I would make a terrible coach, but I would just be able to watch the game from the dugout, and talk to the players as they play the game. I mean, ya know, considering you would let those two... types.... run things.
RE: Ohh hey... on this baseball team you buy, can I be an "assistant coach?"
Would it have meaning for you? HA HA HA HA .... Sure, what would a baseball team be without a little LOGIC!
bumped
@ Nogba
Don't be a dick.
You will die anyway. Make the most of that spark we call life.
@ Nogba: YEA! Buy yourself a bright red trike, some good running shoes, a yellow shirt for traffic safety and a crash helmet, the same kind of helmets they wear on the little yellow bus, then go play in traffic. See if that does not change the "meaning' you are bringing to your life.
@ Cog
"YEA! Buy yourself a bright red trike, some good running shoes, a yellow shirt for traffic safety and a crash helmet, the same kind of helmets they wear on the little yellow bus, then go play in traffic. See if that does not change the "meaning' you are bringing to your life."
Changed the meaning of my life!
OMS: EXCELLENT! AS IT SHOULD!
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