Is faith believing without proof?
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@ David Killens
You missed the point, i feel like you take my words and make a target with, so you can aim at it, and you think you got it right.
I'm not talking about fear what so ever, I'm talking about the meaning of life, if you enjoyed your life or what ever, does that mean
you achieved a meaningful life ? death makes everything meaningless that's what I'm talking about.
anything that doesn't stay for ever is meaningless in my opining.
I think when you die it's like you have never lived because you don't have consciousness any more
and i think i can see what problem you have Mr. David Killens every comment you make it's reflect your background
knowledge of religion you have, you have to think neutral.(i hope I'm not touching your person and no offense)
you have to distinguish the difference between man made and god made, people can give a false information about god or religion
i might be too.
if you so careful that I'm trying to deceive you, will make you get lost probably much than if you were not careful.
I don't understand does religion tell you not to full live your life ?
"You missed the point, i feel like you take my words and make a target with, so you can aim at it, and you think you got it right."
My apologies for any misunderstanding Nogba, I am not targeting you. But when I read something that to me has a huge flaw in reasoning or facts, I will interject and comment.
"I'm not talking about fear what so ever, I'm talking about the meaning of life"
In the post I was responding to (#17) the word "death" is used two times, and "die" eight times.
"anything that doesn't stay for ever is meaningless in my opining."
Nothing stays forever. Even in many billions of years from now this known universe will die a heat death. Before that our Sun will expand, probably consume this planet Earth. A thousand years from now no one will remember my name, of know of me. Or you.
I do not share your position, each and every second I live is precious to me.
"every comment you make it's reflect your background knowledge of religion you have"
I was born into and raised by a very christian family, my father a Mason and my mother Eastern Star. In my opinion, my teachings were adequate. I did leave organized religion at approximately age 19, and for the next forty years searched for anything spiritual or supernatural. I wanted a god.
So please Nogba, if you are sensitive towards anything personal I have targeted towards you (and I apologize, I attack the post, not the poster), then I request you reciprocate and not direct any personal criticism towards me. It is not about "I am right and you are a fool, and here is why", but rather a healthy exchange of opinions.
"I don't understand does religion tell you not to full live your life?"
That is not the primary message from religion, that is to believe with every bit of your being, so you can go to heaven and exist for eternity praising and kissing the ass of an insecure god.
And "living a full life' as explained in many religious sects is to worship, worship, worship. I have a question. Who lives a fuller life, a nun or a sex addict who gets it on at least once a day?
If you can offer me a definition of "god", then maybe you can establish a chain of rational arguements in order for me to accept your position.
Final question: you indicate "meaning in life". What is that to you? What is it?
@ NOGBA: RE: "I'm talking about the meaning of life,"
WTF are you on about? Trees have meaning? They are alive. Earthworms have meaning? They are alive. Bacteria have meaning? They are alive. A cell has meaning? It is alive. Where in the hell did you get such a bizarre idea as "The Meaning of Life." Makes you sound like a Catholic: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fUspLVStPbk Meaning is what you add to life. How is that not completely obvious!
RE: "Death makes everything meaningless that's what I'm talking about."
AND YOU ARE DEMONSTRABLY WRONG! The quality of my life is meaningful to me. My life is meaningful to me and my death is meaningful to me. I could give a shit if it is meaningful to you or not. What makes you so damn special that you think life should give you meaning? FIND YOUR OWN FRIGGING MEANING! Right now the meaning of your life is to sit about and bitch about NOT HAVING MEANING AND HOW MEANINGLESS EVERYTHING IS. THAT IS YOUR MEANING! Surely you can do better than that.
RE: "I think when you die it's like you have never lived because you don't have consciousness any more
and i think i can see what problem you have Mr. David Killens every comment you make it's reflect your background."
I think one of you is sitting on their ass afraid of living because nothing they can do will matter after they are dead, while the other is out actually living their life and doing everything that matters to them, One of you certainly is MISSING THE POINT.
RE: "you have to distinguish the difference between man made and god made, people can give a false information about god or religion.
And you have to distinguish the difference between FANTASY and REALITY. Not one god has ever stood against critical inquiry. More gods have come and gone on this planet than there are trees in a forest and your god is just one more among many. Please demonstrate the existence of your god. What facts and evidence can you provide us with for this imaginary being you are supposing is real. WE ARE ALL WAITING!!! You my friend, are so far removed from reality that it should be embarrassing. Perhaps that is the Meaning you have selected for your own life. Every village needs an idiot after all.
From whence did you get the quaint notions that (1) anything should or ought to ask forever? or (2) that life must have a purpose?
I am 72, and not afraid of death. That is to say ,the state of being dead. Why should I ? I've seen no evidence that it's an experience, only a great many unsupported claims. I don't fear the aeons of time before my birth. The aeons of time after my death are the same; non existence.
OF COURSE I'm afraid of dying. All mammals are, it's hard wired, if this were not the case our species would not survive.Self preservation is our most powerful instinct.
Christianity is a death cult, promising a better life to come. Far too many christians I've met have been far too busy judging others and worrying about an unlikely afterlife that they never learn to simply enjoy life.
I couldn't give flying farnarkle about what religions teach about the meaning of life or anything else. As far as I can see, they have not yet taught anything original worth knowing so far..
Mate I could not care less about your personal superstitions. However, if you want me to share them, you will need to start by proving existence of your god, on which those superstitions are based. If you are unable to do so, stop wasting my time. Piss off and go back to frightening small children who have not reached the age of reason.
RE: "OF COURSE I'm afraid of dying."
Is it really dying or just fear of how you might die? Dying is a bit like going to sleep or being put to sleep by a doctor. This thing I call "me" is just not there any more. Hell, half the time I am awake, I might as well be dead, because I am zoned out and not paying attention to the world around me. For me it is the idea of suffering that causes the fear. The fear of losing my mind, becoming unable to care for myself, shitting my own pants and not having the sense to clean myself, being eaten away by cancer, being pawned off to some home where they keep you alive because the state is giving them money to do just that. Death in America is big business and I want NO part of it. How I die is everything. I want to die like I have lived my life, "On My Own Terms."
Just my thoughts.
To me faith is not believing without proof. Something in my being knows from experiences resulting in my conviction there is an origin to this universe. My faith is simply based on my own experience of things unseen, on my connection with the universe.
Err.. what part of: "Something in my being knows from experiences resulting in my conviction there is an origin to this universe. "
Maybe it is "proof" for you, it shouldn't be, but maybe it is.
But I am really hoping you do at least understand this much: your "proof" is not any sort of proof that anyone could or should use, that your "proof" is in no way actual proof of your god idea. You understand that right? Or am I going to have to bust out some definitions of a few key words we are using here?
So you are essentially saying is: you have zero demonstrable proof of your god idea. You just decided because you feel "something in my being" that there is an origin to this universe, and that "feeling" is good enough reason for you to believe whatever particular god idea you believe in.
Yes, this knowing does it for me. You can hate me for it. People believe what they want to believe.
I don't hate you for it. I actually appreciate your honesty.
I do hope you never mistakenly or purposely push your particular belief on to others. Especially the most vulnerable (any children you have or may have.)
I think you would be well served to investigate your particular god idea from a critical skeptical viewpoint if at all possible.
Definitely agree with your sentiment that: people believe what they WANT to believe.
Do you ever worry that is exactly what you are doing with your particular god idea? Believing in it because you want to? Instead of believing in truth even if the truth hurts?
@Flatland; "People believe what they want to believe."
One of the biggest reasons for Ignorance in the world today. We pity you.
@Flatland: And what evidence for you have for the correctness of your experience. Please explain. What are you basing your "conviction" on? "My conviction is based on my experience is a Circular Fallacy."
RE: " My faith is simply based on my own experience of things unseen, on my connection with the universe."
YOU JUST PROVED MY FUCKING POINT! "FAITH IS THE EVIDENCE OF THINGS NOT SEEN! " This IS the theist version of 'FAITH" and it has nothing to do with "HOPE, WISHING, DESIRE.. " or any other interpretation of 'FAITH' theists want to use.
THEIST FAITH IS AN ASSERTION WITHOUT FACTS OR EVIDENCE. Your personal opinion is evidence of NOTHING.
"To me faith is not believing without proof."
So what is your proof? If this proof was enough to convince you, it should have influence on others, maybe myself.
So you hold a belief based on no objective evidence, since you cannot demonstrate any objective evidence to me that your experience has any validity or voracity, why should i give it any credence at all? I have seen theists make precisely this claim for multiple different deities, and seemingly fail to notice it's the deity they have been born into, and would be a completely different deity were they to be born elsewhere. They axiomatically can't all be right, they can however logically all be wrong.
I live according my experience, not yours.
I can say precisely the same to you, and my experience has never evidence any deity or anything supernatural, what's more you can offer no objective empirical method or evidence that your's does. However the same principles of logic and philosophical epistemology can be applied to your claims as to all others, and the validity of those methods is as well as the scientific method, is manifest in it's objective results.
@ Flatland: RE: I live according my experience, not yours.
Spoken like a true inmate. Your straitjacket is being dry cleaned to remove the blood stains of the last inmate who used it. Ping pong is down the hall and to the left but you must be on level 3 to enter the room and check out the paddles. You can pick up your meds right here at the nurses desk. You must come and get your own meds, it is a part of our program that builds responsibility. If you don't come and get them on time, we get three big orderlies to hold you down on the ground and inject you in the ass. We hope you have a very pleasant stay. Dinner is served at 6PM sharp unless you are confined and in your straitjacket. If you are confined, you will be starved until you can control your behavior and be spoon fed by one of the nurses. Oh! That man over there is Jesus, that's his experience. If you don't play along with him he will lose his mind and beat you with a whip made from bath towels, sheets, toilet paper, or anything else he can make a whip out of. Just play along with him and his experience.
The evil of authority. Not my freedom.
@Flatland: RE" The evil of authority.
Ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha - And yet you eschew your freedom in an effort to follow the authority of your God. HA HA HA HA HA HA HA.....
Have a good laugh.
I have proof for myself for my faith and I live accordingly. It's nobody's business and I don't let it be anyone's. You can attack all you want.
Anyone can believe what they want. Its when they dont treat it like a penis that it is offensive.
Dont take it out in public
Dont talk about to strangers
Dont show it to children or the vulnerable
Dont make memes of it and post on social media.
Otherwise you wanna believe in Blue Universe Creating Bunnies?...be my guest.
Don't mind Cog he is in a poo flinging frenzy this week ever since we swapped his laxatives for a costive, waited 3 days and then dosed his Bananas with a load of senna pods...
Always a good one that....
Hah I like that.
I may use that in the future, if the need uhh... "arises."
(Sorry! Could not resist that terrible pun)
"I have proof for myself for my faith and I live accordingly. It's nobody's business and I don't let it be anyone's. You can attack all you want."
Welcome to Atheist republic Flatland. I am not here to attack you, but beliefs that cannot be supported.
I am assuming the lovely icon below your name indicates you have first nations blood. So is my wife. And if you are, then you are very aware of the insane and horrific manner in which the white man committed genocide on the indigenous.
Yes, money and conquest drove the mass murders, but it was rationalized by what you are preaching, feelings.
You should know better.
So, please, please, please, think it through because your pattern of behavior is exactly the same as those who committed evil against your people.
You do not have proof, I simply don't believe you, otherwise you would have opened with it. If it's nobody else's business, then why have you decided to post it in a public forum, and an atheist one at that? That claim seems an oddly dubious one as well tbh. Cognostic hasn't attacked you either, only your unevidenced superstitious claims, and if you make such claims in a public forum, then you cannot expect them to be ringfenced from criticism, indeed it would be a very odd expectation on an atheist forum.
Edited. Grammar and clarity.
@Flatland Re: "It's nobody's business and I don't let it be anyone's."
Says the guy who decided to join an atheist forum to tell everybody about his business. Irony much?
Then you probably shouldn't have posted it in a debate forum. Just saying.
@Flatland: WELL FUCK - I have proof for myself that you are the love baby of a Chiwawa and a Grapefruit. That probably does not make it ture but it is my experience and it is nobody's business but I just had to share it with everyone so they could all know. You can attack the idea all you like but it's true and my mind will not be changed.
Although i didn't succeed to deliver the idea i wanted by the meaning, I see that it was not understood but what ever at least
I'm going to answer you question about what is god.
In the christian faith, they say that god is the father and there is a son, a family, i think this is the wrong idea that made everything
wrong about religion, bringing god to be like us, before god made the father term was god a father though ? you can't put god in
something existed after him, this idea clearly look man made, god would never had said that.
so since we have put him like us by claiming that he is a father we can say what ever we want, like he can eat, laugh, he is evil,
he hate us !! which are underworld terms.
god existed before math, god can't be three ! nor ten nor one.
I know that I'm using tenses to describe him inside time, which is wrong because he made time and space too but i have to, in sake
of explanation purpose.
Please provide your personal definition of "god". What YOU believe.
Your response was more of what god was not, and what others believed. One describes something by what they are and their properties, not by what they are not.
I am attempting to communicate with you, we need an open and concise dialogue, not evasion and word games.
If you're interested, I consider the origin of the universe god, whatever it is.