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If I have faith that I am the greatest tennis player to have ever lived, and believe it absolutely, what does this tell you about my abilities as a tennis player?
It's funny how theists see bias and ignorance everywhere else, why is that I wonder? I dare you to ask me what evidence I have for my abilities as a tennis player though,, that will be just too funny, and we should note here, that we know as an objective fact that excellent tennis players can exist, we have no such evidence for deities.
Tel me do you believe I a great tennis player, hell do you even believe I can play tennis? the claim is small coal compared to the god claim after all, the burden of proof need not be nearly as high, since spectacular claims require spectacular evidence.
Still, ignorance is inside the mind.
Your faith in that tells me nothing about your abilities.
What does you having faith being a great tennis player got to do with my belief of it?
Do you think your faith in whatever naturally makes everybody think the same of it?
You would have to make your claims hard if I was interested in your abilities. And how is it even measured? It's simply a momentary thing.
@Flatland
I don't understand the significance of stating that ignorance is a function of the state of the mind. Knowledge is also a state of the mind.
You stated that God is the initial creation of the Universe. Do you subscribe to a religious doctrine? Or are you saying only that you are a Deist? You believe there is a creator of the universe but natural law rules?
I'm saying I figure there is an intelligence behind the universe. To me, it seems quite logical for something to come from something and what else can the universe come from than a spiritual being, a god?
I've never seen a house built without intervention of a creator.
@ Flatland
Acknowledged. I find that more reasonable that subscribing to any of the religious doctrines I have read. You are saying that there was a conscience design to the beginnings of the Universe. That means you are a Deist, not a theist.
For Flatland
Attachments
Attach Image/Video?:
You can "figure" Leprechauns are real, it's an equally meaningless assertion without any evidence.
Logic
Noun
1. reasoning conducted or assessed according to strict principles of validity.
One of those strict principles, as I keep explaining to you, and you keep ignoring, is that nothing that contains a known logical fallacy can be asserted as rational. Your assertion is irrational by definition. You have in fact used two known logical fallacies. Your claim is an appeal to ignorance fallacy, argumentum ad ignorantiam, and it is a begging the question fallacy, as you make an assumption about the very thing you are arguing for in your argument. If you use it again without addressing this valid logical objection I shall have no choice but to believe you are being deliberately duplicitous, Flatland.
false equivalence fallacy, it's beyond facile to compare houses to the universe. Now I'll take this apart slowly for you, with bullet points.
1. We have limitless examples of houses being designed and built, and sufficient objective evidence to support the claim.
2. We have no objective evidence or even a rational argument that the one universe we observe was designed.
3.False equivalence is a logical fallacy in which two incompatible arguments appear to be logically equivalent when in fact they are not. This fallacy is categorised as a fallacy of inconsistency.
4. Nothing that contains a known logical fallacy can be asserted as rational.
5. Your unevidenced assertion uses a known logical fallacy, it is therefore by definition an irrational claim.
Of course I could have just pointed out that none has ever seen a universe that has been created, and challenged you to prove otherwise since you seem to think irrational arguments are logical, just for levity, but hey ho.
Hallelujah, so why are you brandishing your faith as justification for your belief to us?
Obviously the analogous comparison illustrates your bias in using faith alone to justify your belief to us, you've just shown this with your response above. My faith (it was a hypothetical example of course), tells you nothing about my the ability that faith claims I have, ipso facto your faith in the existence of a deity tells us nothing about it''s existence. Lets not forget we know tennis players exist, even great ones, the claim is large but we at least now it is possible, we have no evidence a deity is even possible, or anything supernatural.
No of course not, it's you who is doing that by offering your faith as justification for your belief a deity exists to the atheists here, I have said many times that faith is useless in validating claims, I said it from the start. You are the one who expects us to accept the claim of your faith in the existence of a deity as validation of that belief, else why come here and offer it in a debate for your chosen deity's existence.
@Sheldon
Flatland walked into that one hard.
Funny part is, there is good chance he will never understand what just happened.
To be honest it is becoming manifestly clear he doesn't care. Like other theists they fear logic, because at some level they know it invalidates so much of their rhetoric, so they tack the word into their arguments, thinking it lends gravitas to their vapid rhetoric. Yet even when it is made manifestly obvious their argument is by definition irrational, Flatland like other theists on here, simply ignore this, and even repeat the same irrational claims, and claim their reasoning is logical. Since they can't honestly make the claim after it is exposed to them why it is untrue, then in a short while I will be calling him a liar if he repeats any of those fallacies, or claims he has any rational arguments for a deity, and he will then make the specious objections we have seem the likes of Jo and The Intruder offer, but the fact will remain he has been deliberately dishonest. It's not like anyone is forcing them to repeat claims when they know the claims are untrue. A cursory bit of research into the definition of the word logic and into known logical fallacies is all it takes to understand their error, and I have spoon fed them that on a plate after all.
George Orwell's description of "doublethink" in 1984 applies perfectly to religious faith. It's the ability to believe something while simultaneously knowing it can't be true. Like doublethink, religious faith is instilled through constant repetition, brainwashing, and oppressive authority, starting in childhood.
When some religious person urges me to "have faith" in their god, guess how many fingers I'm holding up.
A perfect analogy for most of the theists that come here anyway, I'm not sure it applies to all theists mind, but I find theists who are intelligent and able to reason quite well, but see no cognitive dissonance between their beliefs and objective reality, even harder to fathom. You get an agree for accurately citing Orwell anyway. 1984 is a truly chilling book, it sends a shiver down my spine every time I have read it, and I have been lucky enough never to live under a totalitarian regime.
Flatland: So God is "Whatever it is." OH FUCK! Sheldon, you take this one!
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