Is the future of Humanity in danger from religious con artists?

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HumbleThinker's picture
@Tinman

@Tinman

What you say is correct. The description of hell as you just gave is not consistent with an all loving, benevolent God. Like I said, we do not believe this description to be accurate.

I will try to explain as simply as I can. I do not believe there is a physical realm called hell where souls are tortured. It is more of a state of mind. Being all loving, God brings us all to “heaven”. How you feel about being there, determines whether it is a “heavenly” experience or a “hellish” one. That, is dictated by YOU, not God.

Here is a silly analogy. You and I both receive a chocolate donut, and we have to eat it. I love chocolate donuts, so this is a pleasurable experience. You absolutely hate chocolate donuts, and this becomes a terrible experience for you.

Point is, when the world ends, we will all be reunited with God for eternity. This can either be a pleasurable experience or a terrible one. What is interesting is many here have actually said that even if God does exist, they would cuss at him and turn their backs. THAT is EXACTLY what I’m talking about. THAT is hell, and it is by YOUR own doing.

(Sorry for the Caps, can’t italicize on my phone)

arakish's picture
HumbleThinker: "(Sorry for

HumbleThinker: "(Sorry for the Caps, can’t italicize on my phone)"

Yes you can. If I can on a phone that is over 10 years old, and your phone is more modern, then you can emphasize and bold text by using the <em> — </em> — <strong> — </strong>

Yeah, I know. It adds a crapload of typing and takes twice as long, but it can be done. Usually, I type the text in my notepad app, select all, then paste it here. My phone has a button at the bottom that allows very easy tabbing between open apps (similar to the Alt+Tab windows thing). Don't know about your phone. My mom has an iPhone only a year old and does not have that button. Additionally, mine is Android.

I never updated my phone because the none of the newer phones have that fourth button to tab between open apps. Dumb asses for deleting that design perfection. Anyway, I have ranted enough.

rmfr

EDIT: adding: Watch this video by DarkMatter2525: The Greater Insult.

This explains how I would view an Umaälis (V: All Creator) and the Athanorga (V: Lord Fatherer), or "god" as you would say.

Tin-Man's picture
@Arakish Re: The Greater

@Arakish Re: The Greater Insult

That is one of my favorite Dark Matter vids.

Tin-Man's picture
@Humble Thinker

@Humble Thinker

My apologies for the delayed response. Been an unusually busy/hectic day. Even in a bit of a rush now, but wanted to reply to a couple of things real quick.

Re: Your description of hell

So, okay, in all fairness, I do sorta-kinda see where you are going with that. And on the surface, I can see where a person could look at that and believe it makes rational sense. Notice, though, I said "on the surface". Allow me to dig a bit deeper for a moment and uncover a few flaws with that concept....

Okay, real quick before I get started, remember throughout this whole thing we are talking about an omniscient and omnipotent entity. It knows EVERYTHING, and it can do ANYTHING. Meaning, if it is the god described in the bible, it should know every single thought and feeling I am having at this exact moment as I sit here typing. Moreover, it knows exactly every single thought and feeling I will have for the remainder of my life, even before I have those thoughts and feelings. That is what I was taught my entire childhood and beyond into adulthood. Okay, so with that out of the way...

You said, "God brings us all to “heaven”. How you feel about being there, determines whether it is a “heavenly” experience or a “hellish” one. That, is dictated by YOU, not God." Okay, if that is the case, then that god already knows right now at this very moment exactly how I will feel about being there. And I can tell you right now that if we are talking about the god as described in the bible, then the thought of spending an eternity with a being like that is NOT something I care to do (to put it VERY mildly). And, once again for emphasis, that god supposedly already knows this about me. Now, that being the case, if that god is truly "omni-benevolent", as well as being omnipotent and omniscient, then it should be doing whatever it takes to convince me I am wrong. In other words, if that being TRULY cares about me, and TRULY loves me, and TRULY wants me to love it, and is TRULY an all-benevolent being, then it would never, never, never, never want me to be miserable for all eternity. And keep in mind, this entity KNOWS exactly what it would take to convince me I am wrong about it, and it can DO whatever it takes to convince me. Yet, here I sit, typing away and explaining once again my reasoning behind why I feel the way I do. And, once again, nothing has been done to change my mind. No matter how you look at it, there is really no way to avoid the simple logic of what I say.

Re: Donut analogy

Soooo... Why exactly do I HAVE TO eat the donut. (Not that I would have a problem with it. I happen to love chocolate donuts.)

Re: "What is interesting is many here have actually said that even if God does exist, they would cuss at him and turn their backs."

Can't speak for others, but if we are talking about the god as described in the bible, then I would absolutely REFUSE to bow down and kiss its ass. I do not even respect it. Sure as shit ain't gonna worship it. For that matter, I do not hold much of any respect for ANYTHING OR ANYBODY that requires people to worship it. My personal opinion is that any individual/group/entity/whatever that requires people to worship he/she/it in order for he/she/it to refrain from killing/torturing said people is an insecure and narcissistic bully. Especially if that person/group/entity has massive or unlimited power. That being said, I have no problem whatsoever giving due respect to people in power, regardless of who they are...... but... they... have... to... show me... they.... deserve.... that... respect. I have had the honor of working for and with some amazing people during my life, and I had tremendous respect for many of those individuals. Honestly, there were a few I would have even followed into the gates of hell (if hell were real) had they required me to do so. Regardless of how much I respected them, though, there is no way I would have ever worshiped any of them. And if any of them had ever even suggested that I worship them, then my respect for them would have vanished in an instant. See how that works?

Would like to continue a bit more, but am out of time. Oh, and don't worry about the Caps. I understand. As you can tell, I do not know how to italicize either.

arakish's picture
Tin-Man: "I happen to love

Tin-Man: "I happen to love chocolate donuts."

Then you would love the Smith's grocery store I live near (about 5km). They have a chocolate cake donut with chocolate chips, then covered with chocolate icing. Mmm... Chocolate OD.

"As you can tell, I do not know how to italicize either."

Simply surround the text with the <em> put some text here </em> for italics, the <strong> put some text here </strong> for bold, <strong><em> put some text here </em></strong> for both as shown below.

Simply surround the text with the put some text here for italics, the put some text here for bold, put some text here for both as shown below.

However, I do not ever look at all uppercase as indicating "anger" until all the text, or a very large portion of it, is in uppercase. As said, I use uppercase for further emphasis since I cannot use different colors with the bold and italics, such as <color=green>, or <color=#009900>, or for red or blue or pink or steelgrey or whatever color.

rmfr

HumbleThinker's picture
@Tinman

@Tinman

I appreciate the initial understanding, and the detailed follow up. I will be honest with you, I understand what you are saying and had a strong feeling this would be your reply. I was thinking the same thing as I posted the analogy, and saw the "hole". (hehe) But it is not a hole, really, if you understand the rest.

We have to be able to distinguish between "What we WANT, or THINK we know what is good for us", and "What IS Good for us". Being All Knowing, God knows there is nothing that is better for us than to be in His presence and be in a relationship of love with Him. Being All loving, God directs us towards Him (Heaven). This is why He will bring us all to Him in the end. Well you would say, "its' not really good to be in a hellish state of mind", and this is true. But God doesn't want this. He doesn't force this on us, it is our choice. The issue here though is "Free Will" is a necessary requirement for love, both with God and with all His creation. The problem is then that we have the choice of loving Him or not. Let me outline a few points below.

1) God is all-loving
2) God WANTS us all to love Him, not for His sake, but because it is what's best for US.
3) God creates man 'in His image'. This is describing the unique ability to 'know' God
4) God gives us Free will, because In order to love God, one must have free will to choose to love Him or not. Free will has to be present, or no love can exist
5) God knows you don't want to love Him, but can't force it on you without eliminating Free will.

This is a tricky thing to illustrate, and I'm sure I didn't do a good job. Sorry

Tin-Man's picture
@Humble Thinker

@Humble Thinker

....*deep heavy sigh*…. Wow… Where to start?... *shaking head slowly in dismay*… Uh, well, I guess I could start by saying that I had a strong feeling you would end up resorting to the sad but typical “Free Will” excuse. No real surprise there, to be honest. Still, it gets rather old sometimes considering how many times that whole concept has been shredded to a pulp… *sigh*… Anyway, moving right along… There are a couple of things I want to address, but first I want to respond to your five points real quick.

“1) God is all-loving” – Really? Because, personally, I have yet to see any indications of that... EVER.

“2) God WANTS us all to love Him, not for His sake, but because it is what's best for US.” – And how, exactly, do you know this??? And how exactly is it best for US? Oh, and god does not “want” us to love him, your god DEMANDS that we love AND WORSHIP him. How can that possibly NOT BE for his sake??? For example, let’s say your own father or mother approaches you one day and says, “I demand you love and worship me and fall to your knees and kiss my ass and sing praises about me every day. Oh, but it is not for ME, mind you. It is for YOUR own good.” I don’t know about YOU, but I would consider that individual to be an absolute lunatic. Then I would call the medics to come get him/her to transport him/her to a place to receive psychiatric help. As if that is not enough, though, your “all-loving” god goes on to say that if you DO NOT love him, he will make sure you are incredibly miserable for all eternity? Sure. Makes perfect sense… *rolling eyes*…

“3) God creates man 'in His image'. This is describing the unique ability to 'know' God” – If that is true, then as far as I can tell, I should be running around like a maniac enforcing slavery, raping virgins, and conducting wholesale slaughter on any and all who do not worship me and follow my commands. Oh, but wait… Christian followers of God/Jesus have already been doing that since the dawn of Christianity, and sadly are still doing so in many areas on our planet today. Oddly enough, as a godless heathen atheist, I have zero urge to do any of those things. Hmmm…

“4) God gives us Free will, because In order to love God, one must have free will to choose to love Him or not. Free will has to be present, or no love can exist” – And you have YET to tell me (or anybody else) exactly what it is we should love about this god of yours, even IF it did happen to exist. As I have already said multiple times, if you are talking about the god in the bible, then I have zero respect for that god. Why the hell would I ever want to LOVE it??? And how exactly is this god violating “Free Will”… *cough-cough*… by simply proving to me my perception of it is wrong?

“5) God knows you don't want to love Him, but can't force it on you without eliminating Free will.” – Well, well, well… Pretty much just blew the whole omniscient and omnipotent crap right out of the water with that one statement. Congratulations… *tipping hat*… One more thing, however… I am not too fond of being misquoted or having what I say get twisted. I have NOT said, “I do not want to love god.” What I HAVE said many times, though, is, “I do not and cannot respect the god as depicted in the bible, even IF that god happened to exist. Therefore, why would I ever want to love it?” Let me ask you… WHY do YOU get all happy-happy-joy-joy excited and eager to love/worship such a narcissistic, insecure, egotistical, genocidal, megalomaniacal, bully? Hell, it even TELLS you in black and white that its name is Jealous. To me, that sounds more like an abusive boyfriend/girlfriend. “You are going to love me, or I will make your life miserable.” Yeah, I think I will pass on that, thanks.

Okay, with that out of the way, let’s move on to those other couple of things I wanted to address. First thing is your donut analogy real quick. You stated, “I was thinking the same thing as I posted the analogy, and saw the "hole". (hehe) But it is not a hole, really, if you understand the rest.” Ummmm… Believe me, I totally understood where you were trying to go with that, but the “hole” was so huge I figured it was big enough for anybody to see without my having to elaborate on it. Therefore, I chose to do you the courtesy of not ripping it any wider. Wasn’t necessary then, and still isn’t necessary now. Moving on…

This will be quick. I notice you were able to take all that time in your response to yammer on and on about the same old “God is love”, “God wants this and that”, “God doesn’t want this or that”, “God can/cannot do this or that”, and yadda-yadda-yadda. However, you totally side-stepped my explanations about respect in regards to worship. Things that make you go, “Hmmmmm…” Care to offer your opinion(s) on that?

arakish's picture
@ HumbleThinker

@ HumbleThinker

1) God is all-loving

Then why is it so hateful towards many others such as LGBT, misogynistic to females (over half of our species), repudiates and undervalues unbelievers, etc., etc.

2) God WANTS us all to love Him, not for His sake, but because it is what's best for US.

How do you know it is what is best for us? This sounds like an argumentum ad ignorantiam. Of, perhaps the infamous, "Because the Bible tells me so." argument.

3) God creates man 'in His image'. This is describing the unique ability to 'know' God

If we were created in its image, then that means your deity is just as flawed as us humans.

4) God gives us Free will, because In order to love God, one must have free will to choose to love Him or not. Free will has to be present, or no love can exist.

You cannot have free will to choose or not choose your deity with the threat of eternal damnation and torture and torment for not choosing.

5) God knows you don't want to love Him, but can't force it on you without eliminating Free will.

Your sky faerie has already completely annihilated any and all free will with the threat of eternal damnation and torture and torment for not choosing it.

Now, let's total the score. Oh dear... 0 out of 5.

rmfr

HumbleThinker's picture
Funny, I would've scored it 5

Funny, I would've scored it 5 out of 5. I'm not going to rebut, but just know I am not satisfied with any of your responses.

arakish's picture
@ HumbleThinker

@ HumbleThinker

Religious Absolutists rarely are when confronted with the truth. Additionally, students always assume they score a 100.

rmfr

algebe's picture
@HumbleThinker:1) God is all

@HumbleThinker:
1) God is all-loving
2) God WANTS us all to love Him, not for His sake, but because it is what's best for US.
3) God creates man 'in His image'. This is describing the unique ability to 'know' God
4) God gives us Free will, because In order to love God, one must have free will to choose to love Him or not. Free will has to be present, or no love can exist
5) God knows you don't want to love Him, but can't force it on you without eliminating Free will.

How do you know all this? Who told you? Why did you believe them?

toto974's picture
@HumbleThinker

@HumbleThinker

So please explain to us, you that have the absolute truth where so many are wrong, what this "hell"is.

Old man shouts at clouds's picture
@ HT

@ HT

I am not catholic, so what they believe is irrelevant. Our view of “hell” is much more logically consistent with a benevolent God.

You're drunk HT, go home.

HumbleThinker's picture
I posted this at like 8am.

I posted this at like 8am. Maybe tired, but not drunk.

Old man shouts at clouds's picture
@ HT

@ HT

I posted this at like 8am. Maybe tired, but not drunk.

Riiiiiiggghhhht.....that old 'tired and emotional' chestnut 99?

David Killens's picture
I am asking questions, you

I am asking questions, you are avoiding responding. I do not want to assume anything, but in the absence of information from you, I must tread down that path.

Do you wish to actually answer my questions or is it your intention to use ad hominem in an attempt to divert the conversation away from the questions?

I expected no less from the Incredible Sulk.

arakish's picture
@ NOT Searching for truth

@ NOT Searching for truth

"Yes, and that third answer is I do not know."

Then I guess that third option is your answer for Sheldon's Questions?

Sheldon's Questions You Dodge

  1. If your magic book is inerrant, why is so much effort invested to silence or kill its critics?
  2. Is it ever moral to kill non Muslims?
  3. Is it ever moral for 50+ year old man to have sex with a nine year old child?
  4. What is the penalty for apostasy in Islam?
  5. Do you believe a horse could ever fly?
  6. Do you believe you will get 72 female virgins replenished daily when you die?
  7. What evidence can you demonstrate to support your belief that a deity exists?

rmfr

EDIT: added reference

Glen Hughes's picture
Agreed that misuse technology

Agreed that misuse technology has damaged the planet. There are enough nukes to destroy us all. My point was badly worded. The group it was aimed at was those who believe that a higher being will actively intervene.

Cognostic's picture
1. Theists have the upper

1. Theists have the upper hand? What universe are you living in? Not on this site. They are shown to be the idiots they are day after day after day. People like AJ777 are doing Atheists a favor by spouting their nonsense and then running away or avoiding to be specific. People who read these posts can clearly see the ignorance of responses made by these people. I seriously doubt the theists around here have a leg to stand on.

2. Atheist lack "fervor"? As a position towards the existence of God, you are possibly correct. The problem is that many atheists on the site, excluding lurkers who are hopefully still learning, are skeptics. Skeptics not only on the site but in their lives as well. When they hear religious nonsense, they do not have an issue pointing it out. Modern atheism is dragging the theists out of the pews, challenging irrational beliefs, and demanding evidence for theist claims. I think the fervor is there.

3. It can become a clique: You need to go read the posts on abortion, politics or other non-atheist related stuff. The people on this site "Atheists" do not share common views on most non-atheist issues. If a clique forms it is around one single idea "Disbelief in the existence of God or gods." That's it. Beyond that, I assure you most of the people on this site are "Their Own Person" with their own political and social ideals and values.

4. A planet we are destroying. DON'T BE SILLY All we are destroying is our ability to live on this planet. The planet is fine. The planet will be happy when we are gone. Perhaps it will do dinosaurs again. The Planet, does not need us and we are not destroying anything but ourselves.

5. I will agree with you on the God Belief. Christians all know the world is ending so they are looking forward to the next great flood, fire from the sky, the pandemic and plagues that will kill off 70 percent of the global population. To the Christian, Muslim, this would just be evidence that their God's wrath is real.

6. Secularism may be the path to salvation - I just don't know. The population keeps growing. Food and water may run out. My solace in all of this is that I am not going to be alive. I will not last another 20 years. In that time, I certainly plan to up my game and support secularist movements with which I agree.

Glen Hughes's picture
Point 4. see runaway

Point 4. see runaway greenhouse effect = Venus

Sky Pilot's picture
Glen,

Glen,

Venus spins the wrong way so of course it has problems.

dogalmighty's picture
I do not expect people that

I do not expect people that fail at reason, to do the right thing, ever...let alone trust them. Hence I answer, logically, historically and broadly, yes to religitards failing their own species. Any nut who prays to something that does not exist, for themselves to die, so they can be with the non existent entity, deserves a big evolutionary smackdown...however, that smackdown could end humanity.

HumbleThinker's picture
@cog

@cog

You said you do not expect people who fail at reason to do the right thing, ever.

Curious whether you think someone could do the “right thing” accidentally. If so, you might have to rethink that whole belief. It seems that in this respect, Rational thought isnt a prerequisite for doing the right thing.

Religious people may, then, actually be doing the right thing all along, accidentally and wholly without reason, while logical thinkers are simultaneously doing the “wrong” thing...hmm...

arakish's picture
@ HumbleThinker

@ HumbleThinker

People of a Religious Absolutist bent are often chronically incapable of distinguishing what is true from what they wish to be true. — Richard Dawkins, from The God Delusion.

rmfr

LogicFTW's picture
@HumbleThinker

@HumbleThinker

Religious people may, then, actually be doing the right thing all along, accidentally and wholly without reason, while logical thinkers are simultaneously doing the “wrong” thing...hmm...

What "right" thing is that? I mean I suppose it works if the "god" concept turns out to be exactly like your particular religious denomination thinks it ends up being.then yeah, that religious group may have been doing the right thing, while logical thinkers were in the wrong. But beyond that, what other "right" thing could a religious person hope they were doing right all along?

 
 

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HumbleThinker's picture
@Logic

@Logic

what is “right” isn’t the point. Reread what I said and if you think it is lacking in logic, then let me know.

Far Canal's picture
https://www.youtube.com/watch
algebe's picture
Religion is a clear and

Religion is a clear and present danger to our survival in global emergencies. Look at what happened during the Black Death. The clergy offered all kinds of useless solutions, such as bell-ringing and self-flagellation, while discouraging effective countermeasures, such as better hygiene, rodent extermination, and quarantine. By bringing people together in large congregations they helped the disease to spread even faster. The majority of priests fled and refused to provide last rites and burial services.

Through it all, they encouraged the sick to bequeath their property to the church, which became obscenely rich as a result.

I imagine that if another global calamity looms in the future, such as an imminent asteroid collision, we'll see similar behavior. The churches will revert to their radical ways and insist on prayer over science and technology. Televangelists will beg for money to buy rockets to take Creflo Dollar and his ilk to Mars to carry on Jesus' work there.

Instead of fighting fate with every scrap of intellect, ingenuity, and courage, our species will go into oblivion on its knees babbling moronic prayers.

Far Canal's picture
@Algebe wrote: Religion is a

@Algebe wrote: Religion is a clear and present danger to our survival in global emergencies. Look at what happened during the Black Death. The clergy offered all kinds of useless solutions, such as bell-ringing and self-flagellation,

Is self-flagellation completely useless?, nudge, nuge, wink, wink, say no more, say no more (a la Monty Python).

Also, what about the masturbating campanologist who was tol(l)ed off? At least he died with a smile on his face.

algebe's picture
@Far Canal: Is self

@Far Canal: Is self-flagellation completely useless?

Given the amount of fleas and lice that people carried around in those days, flagellation was probably a blessed relief from all the itching.

As far as the recreational aspects go, I see self-flagellation strictly as a spectator sport.

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