Atheism = Indifference.
…Well, not quite, but everyone here must agree that Religion has the upper hand here since proponents feel they are defending an actual person. Not only that but the most important person in their life!
A-Theism on the other hand, since it is the absence of a claim, rather than a claim in itself, lacks ‘Atheist Fervor’, at least for the most part.
But we are all humans. We all have to live on the same planet, a planet we seem to be slowly destroying. Surely religious belief that God will save us is not only denying that we are in danger, but also placing us in even more danger by preventing us from following a globally cohesive plan to bring about our own salvation.
I truly believe that Secularism is the key to all our salvation - believers, faithful and rationalists.
Ken Ham is not only a con man, but he is actively contributing to the propagation of ignorance. He and the rest of ‘Ham kind’ are a danger to the future of our race.
I think us rational types need to up our game! This is serious, people.
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If religious con artists lead us to nuking the planet or refraining from cutting down on greenhouse gases, then yes, the future of humanity is in danger from them.
Evangelicals in the USA, evangelicals in Brazil...
ALL religitards are more dangerous to humanity than any others. However, the biggest instability to the survival of the human species are the actual indifferents, referring to the ignorant (ig•nor•unt) and ignorant (ig•nur•unt).
The ignorants (ig•nor•unts) just simply ignore facts that are effecting the world outside of their lives. If it does not actually effect them or their lives, they just do not care. They either do not care enough or do not know enough to realize that if the world outside of their lives ceases to be, then so do their lives, or their children's lives, and on down the line descendency.
The ignorants (ig•nur•unts) are best exemplified by the religitards. They know the facts, they are just taught to ignore them. God will sort it in the end. Why should we care if we destroy the world until the Lich Virgin returns…
rmfr
"Surely religious belief that God will save us is not only denying that we are in danger, but also placing us in even more danger by preventing us from following a globally cohesive plan to bring about our own salvation."
This statement is a complete perversion of what any moderate theist believes. I do agree, people like Ken Ham and other fundamentalist, young earth creationists are dangerous, but that does not mean "all believers." I have been called a "religious absolutist" here many times, but I do not deny anything scientific. Yes, I believe God does exist, and He will come again "to judge both the living and the dead", but that does not necessitate a disregard for preserving the earth as long as we can, or to find ways to work together more efficiently.
Besides, you seem to forget that religion has been around for thousands of years, and the earth is still here....You could also make the argument, that the development of TECHNOLOGY has contributed greatly to the demise of the planet.
Anyway, who cares to preserve the planet? What's the point?
The average religious person believes life has infinitely less value than death: that means terms like "moderate" and "fundamentalist" are of little use.
@HumbleThinker
"Anyway, who cares to preserve the planet? What's the point?"
I care to preserve this planet, it maybe our only home for thousands, millions of generations. I do not believe in "The Rapture". This planet is not a way station to heaven, it may be our final destination.
That statement is a very good proof how religion is harmful to humanity. Because too many theists believe in their religion and believe that this lovely planet is just a way station, they are indifferent to it's future ability to sustain mankind.
"Anyway, who cares to preserve the planet? What's the point?"
This was meant as a tongue and cheek comment. Pointing out the classic philosophical conundrum that atheists have to deal with of "what is the meaning of life". It's not an interesting conversation to me, although it is for others, but I will elaborate for clarity.
The instinct for survival is deep within the genes, as beautifully explained by Richard Dawkins in 'The Selfish Gene'. Your feeling of wanting to save the planet is merely an instinctual response to your hardwiring, no? If I look at saving the planet from a purely secular view, it seems to me the cons out-way the odds. With all of the suffering that atheists like to point out as proof that there is no God, aren't you just prolonging humanity's torment? Life is difficult, is it really worth all the suffering? Sure, its' fun to play videogames, and we get good feelings when our children smile at us, but is that really all life is? Idk, I just fail to see the point of carrying on our bleak existence here merely "to survive" as long as possible. It is an endless struggle with no real gain.
And HumbleThinker, this is where I humbly disagree. Life is wonderful, something to be enjoyed for every second.
The gain? I get to see sunsets, watch exciting sports events, enjoy the company of my friends and loved ones. I get to love and be loved.
Humanity is not tormented. The raw statistics indicate that most of the factors that are inherent to suffering, such as crime and murder, are on the way down, that each decade mankind is moving towards a better place.
Do you believe in "The Rapture", and do you hope it comes soon?
All of this is a good example the harm religion does. Instead of enjoying what we have, many theists are indoctrinated into believing this earth is a miserable place, that it is just the way station to heaven. They spend their entire lives living under a cloud of dark pessimism, instead of enjoying each wonderful moment we have.
Hey David, I like you. You seem like a really stand up guy. (girl?) I hate even disagreeing with you : )
Interesting side note here. I think we will not agree on this because we hold meaning in different ideals and value different things (as is usually the case with atheists vs theists).
"The gain? I get to see sunsets, watch exciting sports events, enjoy the company of my friends and loved ones. I get to love and be loved."
Don't get me wrong, on the surface I agree with you. These things are wonderful. Ignoring the shallow, self-interested benefit from these activities, they can seem like good reasons to live.
"Humanity is not tormented. The raw statistics indicate that most of the factors that are inherent to suffering, such as crime and murder, are on the way down, that each decade mankind is moving towards a better place."
This is a very complex issue, receiving input from all imaginable directions. Aside from the fact that your statement is debatable, it is very unlikely (in my opinion) that we will ever reach peace. And this is from a purely scientific perspective of genetics, evolution, human psychology; NOT a religious one. (This may make a pretty interesting thread if people are interested) I do, in addition, also have a religious belief about this, but they are separate, independent reasons. (see below)
"Do you believe in "The Rapture", and do you hope it comes soon?"
I will avoid simply answering yes or no to this question, as the term 'Rapture' is viewed differently by just about Christian sect. My Church does believe a time will come when Christ returns to Earth and judges humanity, separating the "lambs" from the "goats". When this will be, we do not know. I personally believe, that it will happen when there isn't a single person alive that could come to love God. Even self-proclaimed atheists still have a chance, though, so I don't think it will happen for awhile. The reason I believe this is by the examples in the Old Testament where God spared cities where the righteous were to be found. Genesis 18:32 (NKJV) "32 Then he said, “Let not the Lord be angry, and I will speak but once more: Suppose ten should be found there? ”And He said, “I will not destroy it for the sake of ten.”
Also, I do not hope that it comes soon, because if it did, I would probably be considered a "goat." My hope is that I have enough time here to increase my spiritual aptitude, and learn to control my passions, as the saints of old.
"All of this is a good example the harm religion does. Instead of enjoying what we have, many theists are indoctrinated into believing this earth is a miserable place, that it is just the way station to heaven. They spend their entire lives living under a cloud of dark pessimism, instead of enjoying each wonderful moment we have."
This is also far from truth. The single uniting factor of the Christian religions is that we have hope. Hope is optimism, not pessimism. That is like saying someone who strives to have more money is pessimistic; Instead, you should be enjoying the fact that you are poor. (And for the record, I'm not saying you have to be theistic to have hope. )
HumbleThinker, I will relate a true, but sad story. I used to be very active in a Yahoo chat forum. Over time chat forums can take on a community, most know each other well, share jokes and exchange ideas. Yes, it can develop into a clique.
One day a stranger entered this forum, and began asking questions, such as "hi, do you want to be my friend?". I am ashamed to admit I was one of many who jumped on him, ripping and insulting him mercilessly. He left.
About ten minutes later the same name re-appeared, but the tone was much different. It was his sister, he was crying and very upset. He was mentally challenged and just wanted to make friends.
I still bear the shame of what I did that day, it is something that still haunts me. And I definitely deserved to be put in my place.
But from that I pounded into my thick skull the simple fact that on the other end of the monitor is another human being, and just like me, full of pride, expectations, and emotions.
HumbleThinker, we may never know each other, we may disagree on many topics, we may have grave misunderstandings. But with great certainty I believe you are a good person, one with loved ones and a good life.
Thank you for sharing this story, it is one in which many share; including myself.
"HumbleThinker, we may never know each other, we may disagree on many topics, we may have grave misunderstandings. But with great certainty I believe you are a good person, one with loved ones and a good life."
Thank you for your words here, and I return them right back to you. And fitting words for today. Happy Valentines Day, David.
*edit:
"Thank you for sharing this story, it is one in which many share; including myself. "
Just bashed @arakish in another thread. See, I am just as guilty of it myself.
Happy Valentine's Day HumbleThinker, I wish you well.
FYI I am a 68 year old married male retired electrician, one who played many sports and enjoyed many professions, from navy radioman to aircraft engine mechanic, miner, construction worker, to telecom repair. My passion is humor, good music, racing, and my loved ones.
@David
Hasty/Over generalization fallacy.
Why, what is the correct number?
I stated "too many", not "all".
Do you believe that when your body stops working, that you will go to a better place?
This is a very simple question, I would appreciate a simple "yes" or "no".
@david
If that’s what you are trying to limit my answer to, in order to attempt drive this conversation in the direction you want, order for you reach the conclusion you are solely searching for then, I will pass on answering. Because as much as you would like, at least for me, things are not that black and white. A common misunderstanding many people have about Islam. If you would actually like to have a respectful conversation about Death (“when your body stops working)”, “this lovely planet is just a way station” and “future ability to sustain mankind” let me know but, you won’t limit my answers by trying to “force” me to answer in a particular manner.
Yea, it is a very simple question. One does or does not believe in any thing.
Is there a third or even more options? if so, I apologize beforehand, I do not wish to be guilty of a false dilemma.
@David,
Yes, and that third answer is I do not know.
Typical response. "I am sure, I can not explain what it is, and I can't prove it."
@David
First, you say
“I do not wish to be guilty of a false dilemma.”
Then you say
“Typical response.” I am sure, I can not explain what it is, and I can't prove it.”
The irony is strong with this one lol. It’s always fun talking to people like you as it’s easy to spot their goals and intentions. It’s funny how you always assume to know my answers yet, continually get all of your presupposed notions about me wrong. I would suggest asking next time instead of assuming, might learn something. I honestly mean that with utmost sincerity
The issue is concerning the fact the average religious person believes life has infinitely less value than death, and how this affects their judgment, regardless of whether or not they are uncertain about any claimed afterlife.
Although I hesitate to disagree because on the surface this may seem true; but I must.
I don’t believe life has “infinitely less meaning”. Meaning is subjective. I just have different meanings for living.
I think this this life is extremely important, if not more important than you believe. It’s true that Christians believe the afterlife can potentially provide more benefit than here on earth, it does not ignore the importance of living. If anything, the exact opposite. I believe our time here should be used to prepare us for the afterlife; not instead of it, nor in waiting for it. The difference in our thinking here is what constitutes “meaning of life”
Are you able to say that you would not risk everything in this mortal life if you believed it would get you an eternal reward in an afterlife?
I would never strap a bomb to my chest if that’s what you’re asking. I’m not really sure what exactly you ArRE even asking. I believe there is the potential for everlasting life with Gods love, but there is equal potential for the opposite. What we do here on earth directly correlates with what happens then, so I bettter make sure I do it right. I would rather be killed by you than to deny my beliefs, but I would prefer I can believe and still live until I am ready.
"I believe there is the potential for everlasting life with Gods love, but there is equal potential of THE OPPOSITE". What is this opposite? The catholic church defines it as eternal torment in hell.
@talyyn
I am not catholic, so what they believe is irrelevant. Our view of “hell” is much more logically consistent with a benevolent God.
@ HumbleThinker
No god can be benevolent if it is so willing to send so many to an eternity of torture and torment.
rmfr
@Arakish Re: "No god can be benevolent if it is so willing to send so many to an eternity of torture and torment."
...*disappointed heavy sigh*.... Honestly, dude, you can be way too judgemental sometimes. I mean, SURE, God sends people to hell for not bowing down and kissing his ass. But how else is he suppose to get his message across to make people take him seriously? Plus (and this is the important part), you are obviously not taking into consideration that just because he does it does NOT necessarily mean he likes it. Rumor has it the big fella even gets all upset and misty-eyed when he has to toss his beloved pets into his forever-fiery-furnace.... because he CARES....*tapping finger forcefully on table for emphasis*.... Now, if THAT doesn't simply scream, "Benevolence", I don't know what does.
@Humble Thinker Re: "Our view of “hell” is much more logically consistent with a benevolent God."
*totally perplexed look on face*.... *nervous tick developing at corner of right eye*.... *drool starting to ooze from corner of mouth*..... Uh... uh.....errrrr.... uhhhhh..... *striking side of head with heel of hand in attempt to reset circuits*.... *eyes blinking rapidly*.... What the fu-....??? Wha-wha-what just happened???.... *shaking head vigorously*.... Last thing I remember is reading a post by HT, and then everything suddenly went blank!.... *looking back over post*..... OH! Okay, that explains it. Yeah, was totally unprepared for that. Should have taken my circuit breakers off the "delay" setting. Wow! That was a close call. Anyway.... *taking a sip of water*....
Ummmm, ya know, unless your view of hell is a happy place full of fuzzy kittens and cotton candy, then I would LOVE to know HOW a pit of eternal agonizing torture could EVER be "logically consistent" with an all-perfect, all-knowing, all-loving benevolent god. Do you have even an inkling of just how monumentally over-the-top ABSURD your statement is? If not, then - please - allow me to put it in its proper perspective for you...
According to many/most Christian doctrines, an omniscient, omnipotent, and so-called "all-benevolent" god is supposedly responsible for creating EV-RY-THING in our known existence, including Satan and hell and demons and yadda-yadda-yadda. (Pretty sure I have that straight so far.) Quite frankly, that ALONE pretty much easily negates the entire "all-benevolent" aspect of this entity. But wait! Let's take ridiculousness to a whooooooole new level! "Okay, sure, there is a hell. Granted. But you were talking about the Catholic hell, and I simply do not believe in THEIR hell. After all, those Catholic motherfuckers are downright sadistic assholes! Know what I mean? So THEIR hell is just ridiculously waaaay more tormenting and horrible than necessary. On the other hand, the hell OUR god made is a much nicer pit of eternal torture compared to the Catholic hell. Hence, it fits in quite nicely with the image of our beloved benevolent god. How is that so difficult to understand?"
Yeah, from now on, I have GOT TO remember to put my circuit breakers on the proper setting before reading stuff on here.
Edit to add: Re: "I am not catholic, so what they believe is irrelevant."
Uh, okay. Try telling that to the Catholics, though. No doubt they would agree with you.... *snicker-snortle*....
Catholic Hell is an older man, possibility a priest or other church representatives, ramming their cock into some innocent individuals. Probably children.
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