"God's Plan"

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science's picture
"God's Plan"

When some horrendous atrocity happens, religiuos people will say it is "God's plan," or it is "God's will." In my view, this is an excuse to try and justify "God" allowing something bad to happen. What possible plan could "God" have for allowing 21 first graders to be slaughtered in Newtown? Or a church full of litle girls to be murdered in Lancaster? A fire in Brooklyn this weekend took the lives of SEVEN children as they slept in their upstairs bedroom...what kind of "blueprint" could "God" have for that? Is it also "God's will" that there are entire COUNTRIES where there is nothing but disease, starvation, and death? Didn't "He" create all this? Why hasn't "HE" responded to the cries of diseased, starving, abused, molested, abandoned children? Why does "God" allow children to be molested by clergy in "His" own house of worship, and why does "He" allow the higher ups ( Cardinals, Bishops, etc) to ignore what is happening, or to bury the incidents, and protect the violators by passing them on to other parrishes to abuse another child? Anything that happens that is good, "God" will recieve all the credit...but why is "He" suddenly not responsible for the bad? If "God" can truly work miracles, and can do anything, than at the very LEAST he should be able to protect the children!! Reality

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Jeff Vella Leone's picture
Reminded me of George Carlin

Reminded me of George Carlin comedy about the Divine Plan:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=n2kZ0lRW9Ls

Jeff Vella Leone's picture
The full version:
science's picture
Thanks, Jeff. Absolutely

Thanks, Jeff. Absolutely HILLARIOUS!!! And what made it more hillarious, was that it is ALL TRUE!! I didn't know these existed.

ImFree's picture
Carlin always made it easy to

Carlin always made it easy to laugh at frustration LOL Religious drivel always makes me want to roll my eyes.

Jeff Vella Leone's picture
Yea, about what you wrote;

Yea, about what you wrote;
"but why is "He" suddenly not responsible for the bad? If "God" can truly work miracles, and can do anything, than at the very LEAST he should be able to protect the children!! Reality"

It is one of my main points regarding when Jesus supposedly walked the earth. He is depicted as the good guy but given all the things he failed to do out of pure indifference, he appears to me as an evil character.

Let it put it this way.

If you go in a classroom, walk in the middle and give sweets to every child on your right, would you appear as a good person given that you gave sweets only to a small percentage of the class?
You would encourage envy and also discrimination.

Jesus came to a corner of the deserted Palestine and only healed people when he was with the right mood.
Given that he can do everything, he could have healed cancer or at least inform us about bacteria.
Given what he didn't do, what he did was pathetic and just a show off.

Magic tricks.
Anybody who tries to show that Jesus is a good guy is just wrong.

This is the resume of and evil character even though the bible is claiming he is perfect and just.

science's picture
Hey Jeff..Was there even a

Hey Jeff..Was there even a Jesus? Where is the proof? And if there was a Jesus in those biblical times...who's to say there were ANY "miracles" perfomed, and he wasn't just some guy who was walking around telling ridiculous stories? Is there anyone around today that was there, and can tell us? There is not one biblical scripture that tells us to celebrate the birth of Jesus. Nor is there any biblical writing that can pinpoint an exact date, or time of year that this was supposed to have happened. It is all a mystery. That is why I call Christmas the "Big Hoax." Where is the proof that "He" was tortured, murdered, and then rose out of the grave? Where is the proof of a man getting out of his own grave? That is why Easter is another "hoax." If this "blessed" divine event really took place, then why does the date of it change every year..sometimes by several weeks. If something historic happened on a certain day, there should be an exact date that it happened. But, it is all a mystery. Yet scientists are piling up evidence by the day, linking events that have happened ( for REAL) billions of years ago, but we just can't seem to pinpoint Jesus. Strange.

Jeff Vella Leone's picture
There is evidence to suggest

There is evidence to suggest that Jesus as a historical character never existed, he was just a literal creation.
A character in a very complex piece of literature that is being used to allegorically represent other myths or historical events for propaganda purposes.

https://vimeo.com/69145519

myrobot's picture
Of course you are right. Many

Of course you are right. Many times i had question in mind that if some bad young peoples are killed due to their bad acts this we can understand this is punishment of their bad acts but when little hungry children are died in sudan due to hunger then i always think those little children don,t know what is good or what is bad then why they are punished by some bad peoples, if God can do everything then why God did not protect those children. And one more point why God created those children in sudan in poor families to die hard in childhood?
I really agree there is no God.

John Bryan's picture
God is "not willing that any

God is "not willing that any should perish" and "He does not willingly bring affliction or grief to anyone." If this is true then no, it is not "God's will" that any of those things you listed should happen. The only times I've heard a Christian say, "God has a plan" is when something bad has happened to them personally, or when they are trying to console a grieving person. But it is typically uttered under circumstances such as this: "You meant evil against me, but God meant it for good in order to bring about this present result." In other word's they are saying evil has come, and God has a plan to turn it around, so do not despair and take hope.

The only exception is a radical pastor every now and then making headlines for saying things like "It's God will that all those children died in a fire because they were all sinners." But notice he is making headlines, precisely because everyone disagrees with him. Even God disagrees with him, because God says: "As surely as I live, declares the Sovereign LORD, I take no pleasure in the death of the wicked, but rather that they turn from their ways and live."

Next notice how similar you statement: "Why hasn't HE responded to the cries of diseased, starving, abused, molested, abandoned children? Why does "God" allow children to be molested by clergy in His own house of worship..." notice how similar it is to the Bible: "They [those persecuted, and killed] cried out with a loud voice, “O Sovereign Lord, holy and true, how long before you will judge and avenge our blood on those who dwell on the earth?”

The Bible says as a response: "Rejoice, you nations, with his people, for He will avenge the blood of His servants; He will take vengeance on his enemies and make atonement for his land and people." Even for the children He says: "Whoever causes one of these little ones to stumble, it would be better for him if, with a heavy millstone hung around his neck, he had been cast into the sea," regardless if he's a priest or a peasant.

So the Bible is clear about the current state of the world, it is also clear that God will avenge all the suffering. Where you may disagree is in the time period He will do it. So where you want Him to cure the symptoms: the cries, the evil, the suffering, of right now, He is trying to cure the disease: sin, which according the Bible, is the root of all that evil you mentioned.

Verses mentioned: 2P3:9, Lam3:33. Gen 50:20. Eze 18:23 Rev 6:10 Ps 58:10 Mark 9:42.

Jeff Vella Leone's picture
"He is trying to cure the

"He is trying to cure the disease: sin"

Well I guess he is too busy with sin to care sufficiently for us miserable humans then.
It is all clear now, god is busy and can't handle helping "the cries, the evil, the suffering, of right now".

I honestly expected a better reply but i bet this is the best you could come up with.

Watch why your god favors evil more then good:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Z1BzP1wr234

science's picture
So, God is going to avenge

So, God is going to avenge the suffering I guess?...TIME PERIOD!? How many more THOUSANDS OF YEARS are we going to wait?! Trying to cure sin...WHAT POSSIBLE SIN COULD LITTLE KIDS HAVE COMMITED?!! Now I am getting VERY ANGRY!!I t is MINDLESS shit like this that has messed up the entire world... and INNOCENT PEOPLE are paying for it with their LIVES every day!! Get a grip on reality, buddy!! You need a lesson, go to youtube, type in George Carlin, and see what his views are on religion. It's not only hillarious, every word of it is TRUE!!

John Bryan's picture
I don't know what anger does

I don't know what anger does for the conversation. You are now asking for a time period. Do you know why ever since the 1800's the idea that God is coming soon has suddenly emerged from the mouth of Christians? That's a staple of modern Christianity. You didn't find peasants during the middle ages, or beggars during the Roman age walking around with pikes preaching the end is near. But you do in this century.

This is because the Bible does give signs and prophecies that will happen before the last days, and a good majority of Christians agree that those things have either happened, or are happening as we speak. So you can't get angry and ask how long, when the Bible already answers that. You can however reject the whole idea, but then there was no point in asking the question to begin with.

science's picture
What in hell are you talking

What in hell are you talking about? What does all this bullshit have to do with God proving his existence, something that has YET to take place in several thousand years,, or have to do with little kids deserving to die because they were sinners? Clergy spend their lives studying how to bullshit around the truth, and logical questioning, trying to convince people that things that make no sense are real...and too many people like you buy this garbage. More people have been slaughtered in the name of religion than anything else since the begining of time...it's time we get RID OF IT!!

John Bryan's picture
True, what I just said has

True, what I just said has nothing to do with proving God's existence, but neither did your question.

MarioinBrussels's picture
Of course Christians agree

Of course Christians agree that prophecies happen, they believe anything. The Bible does not answer anything, keeps saying the Lord will be back, and he had never showed up, in the meanwhile millions of innocent people die and suffer. If he exist he must be an asshole. What's the point to come one day and avenge the dead, when the world has been almost destroyed by sinners that he created in the first place. My friend you or your faith don't make any sense, why you are here?

MarioinBrussels's picture
Of course Christians agree

Of course Christians agree that prophecies happen, they believe anything. The Bible does not answer anything, keeps saying the Lord will be back, and he had never showed up, in the meanwhile millions of innocent people die and suffer. If he exist he must be an asshole. What's the point to come one day and avenge the dead, when the world has been almost destroyed by sinners that he created in the first place. My friend you or your faith don't make any sense, why you are here?

MarioinBrussels's picture
God will avenge all the

God will avenge all the suffering? was not a better idea not make children suffer and die in horrible ways in the first place?
For years I had always ask in conversations with religious people about children suffering, about innocent people dying, I mean, I get the bullshit of sin and punishment, but often are the oppressed, the children, the women, people with no sin, who are abused, tortured and killed. You said also that he is trying to cure sin, root of all evil, but why then he created sin in the first place?

Nyarlathotep's picture
John6b - "You didn't find

John6b - "You didn't find peasants during the middle ages, or beggars during the Roman age walking around with pikes preaching the end is near."

really?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_dates_predicted_for_apocalyptic_events

John Bryan's picture
Well, that's definitely an

Well, that's definitely an interesting list. So if it makes you happy, I'll withdraw my statement.

There's definitely evidence that some of the apostles believed Christ would return during their lifetime, up until John received the vision of Revelation which is what contains most of the prophecies explain what will occur before the second coming.

But if anything the list proves my point. Notice the increase in frequency of the predictions as times goes on, until you have way over twice as many predictions in the 1900's alone, than you do in the entire period between 66CE and the 1500's which is when the Protestant Reformation occurred.

This is precisely because as time has gone on, more and more of the prophecies which the Bible lists, are believed to have occurred in the eyes of Christians.

So fine, I'll concede my point, Maybe there were one or two monks making predictions during the middle ages, but what this list shows is exactly what I'm saying. We've reached a period where more Christians than ever before believe the Jesus is about to come.

CyberLN's picture
"But if anything the list

"But if anything the list proves my point. Notice the increase in frequency of the predictions as times goes on, until you have way over twice as many predictions in the 1900's alone, than you do in the entire period between 66CE and the 1500's which is when the Protestant Reformation occurred."

Oh, John, you are going to jamb the square peg into the round hole come hell or high water, eh?

Literacy, larger communities, more travel, and the printing press wouldn't have anything to do with the increased quantity of these predictions being documented, eh?

The list presented DISproved your previous point. Now you make an altered point and say "proof" once again.

This has more holes in it than Albert Hall....

John Bryan's picture
Literacy, travel, and the

Literacy, travel, and the printing press are all well accounted for in my statement. After all the biggest tool for the Protestant Reformation was the printing press.

My statement that "christ coming soon" is a staple of modern Christianity still stands. But my illustration that there were no monks with signs in the middle ages does not. If you found a meaningful hole in my argument, you definitely didn't point it out well.

Jeff Vella Leone's picture
I think she did, you were

I think she did, you were just too "distracted" to see it.

"predictions being documented"

Before to document anything was very expensive and useless if it was false.
Apart from that, there would be no one to store and protect such knowledge without motivation.

The only history that we have in this period is because there was motivation by powerful individuals that had the means to protect some historical text.(Roman empire/chruch)

But in most cases knowledge is lost, like what happened to the library of Alexandria.
The Romans invented the first primitive computer by building from information in that library.

The first prototype sank(we found it today), the library was destroyed= we got our home computer 1900 years late. :(

Now if they did not care about a library with all that ancient knowledge and history, would they care about a false prophecy?

Your point just falls apart here, but again you need to know what you are talking about to claim anything about history and why this and why that.

Clearly you do not.

Drakaris Oscuras's picture
This is why that argument is

This is why that argument is the worst in existence. People just keep saying that, ignoring the people that suffer.
They never think that they're human and just say that their god is using them to teach people, making their god look uncaring about their lives.

science's picture
Lets leave "John" alone. His

Lets leave "John" alone. His statements no longer merit responses.

Ergunnbaxter's picture
Humans are evil. We do evil

Humans are evil. We do evil things... and when we do... God gets the blame, somehow. Then Atheists especially seem to want God to stop evil things from happening. People die everyday sometimes because of another human being sometimes it is circumstances. This is the world humans have created, not the world God created.. still want to blame God tho it seems. The other answer is that everything is random and God has nothing to do with it... somehow that is God's fault too I'm sure.

Nyarlathotep's picture
It is only God's fault if you

It is only God's fault if you think he is real.

science's picture
I have never heard of"God"

I have never heard of"God" getting the blame for anything...but have heard plenty of being responsible for anything good. So, humans have created a world where children are born with dreadful incurable diseases? They have created a world where "acts of God" ( hurricanes, tornados, tsunamis, erupting volcanos, monsoons, typhoons, etc) which has killed more people than any war, or other atrocity since the begining of time? If "God" created such a "perfect" world, why did he create parts of this world where it dosen't rain, and there is nothing but disease, starvation, and death...are those poor people to blame also? That is always the excuse theists have to justify the terrible things that happen that are in "God's hands" and OUT OF ANYONES CONTROL..." humans ruined the world." There was just a plane crash in the French Alps killing 150 innocent people. Where was the miracle? 20 first graders were slaughtered in Newtown 2 years ago. Where was the miracle? Three quarters of a million people were killed in a Tsunami in Thailand several years ago( an act of GOD) where was the miracle? I could go on and on. God is supposed to be able to do ANYTHING... IT IS SAID HE CAN PERFORM " MIRACLES" why can't he show us one to make his presence known when it comes to saving the lives of hundreds, or thousands of people, when there is an impossible situation? Atheists may be more open to the idea of an almighty, if we could see some of these "miracles" that everyone talks about. But unfortunately, we don't see those kinds of "miracles." And if everything happens at " random" as you suggest...I would agree with that, but that would mean, as you stated, that God has nothing to do with anything, which I also agree with, so why bother in believing in a God? We don't need him!!

mysticrose's picture
If all the terrors that

If all the terrors that happened before and up to now is called god's plan, it can be concluded that this god in not divine and merciful. then, why worship such god?

science's picture
That is another excuse to

That is another excuse to justify the horrible things that the almighty God, the one who is capable of doing ANYTHING, and performing incredible miracles at the snap of a finger, allows.

mysticrose's picture
If all the terrors that

If all the terrors that happened before and up to now is called god's plan, it can be concluded that this god in not divine and merciful. then, why worship such god?

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