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Jakquai
I understand how fiat money works, I wanted you definition of it. Labor is how you get paid, some people work hard than others and still get paid less. I have always thought it was unfair that lazy people got paid the same as hard working people.
Learning and retaining information is labor in my opinion. Learning to take a test then forget it later cause it don't matter to your profession isn't.
Not many folks remember all the mathematics they learned in college.
Is the value of the college education where the knowledge is forgotten worth more than the average man? Since you had to go down that road.
Should a doctor be paid the same as a fast food worker?
@xenoview
Well, that depends on the effort, sacrifice, and any unique needs of the doctor and the fast food worker. I subscribe to the theory of Participatory Economics (PARECON) in which a person is awarded consumption credits based on effort, sacrifice, and unique needs.
So ... I flip your question: Why should a doctor working 30 hours a week earn more than a fast food worker who is providing a valuable service to society -- just like the doctor -- who is working (effort and sacrifice) 60 hours a week?
By the way, I was a fast food worker when I was young. I regularly managed 144 burgers on the grill while dressing 144 sets of buns. Try that sometime and you'll discover it requires a level of skill many people will never, ever admit. I'm not at all taking any amount of effort and sacrifice away from the doctor. I just believe the fast food worker deserves more credit than many people will ever give. After all, they must put and keep others down in order to maintain their illusionary superiority.
Your example of the doctor versus the fast food worker is pure classism! It is utilized by the ruling elites to maintain the exploitation and oppression of the "commoners."
Participatory Economics: http://www.participatoryeconomics.info/introduction
@Jakquai: "Not many folks remember all the mathematics they learned in college."
University education isn't just about learning specific knowledge. It also teaches you to discover, manage, process, and enhance information. It's also supposed to teach you to think critically, although some of the PC nonsense coming out of some universities these days makes me doubt that.
@Algebe
Jakquai: "is not getting an education labor?"
It's labor for the teachers who provide it. For the student it's a benefit. Do you think people should be paid to get educated?
I do not think folks should be paid to learn.
Is labor across all spectrum not more of a reality of human value for the world today?
I've gone way off base here...sorry.
Point was...how does one feel okay with laying down and eating lobster as a person who perhaps hasn't worked for a penny in their life and think they are moral?
@Jakquai "how does one feel okay with laying down and eating lobster as a person who perhaps hasn't worked for a penny in their life"
It sounds like you're talking about inherited wealth, old money. I'd agree with you on that. I think everyone has a duty--and a right--to work and be useful. Being useful is a basic human need. A person who's born into great wealth should use that wealth to do something meaningful in the world. Spending it is fine, too, since that creates demand and work for other people, but really a human being needs to do something useful or they shrivel inside.
That make it better since everyone wants to deliberate the whole "I wanna have all I want and not feel bad" mentality?
I have no objection to fiat money. I have no objection to people earning wealth for security. I also have no objection to people being greedy.
Do you think it is immoral which is the original question????
@Jakquai: "Do you think it is immoral which is the original question????"
Which I answered right at the start of this thread. Some methods of accumulating wealth are immoral, but wealth accumulation per se is not.
Some examples of immoral wealth accumulation are fund-raising by evangelists to buy Rolls Royce cars and private jets, self-enrichment by corrupt politicians, appropriation of the wealth of entire nations by dictators (e.g., the Kim dynasty), wealth accumulation through violence and intimidation by organized crime, and of course, the Catholic church.
Labor is intangible and not fungible; you can't put it in your purse. So instead you need a token to represent labor; then you are right back to the fiat money!
I love how emotions get involved if one feels they or a group they love is attacked.
@Nyarlathotep
Sure...but Labor is the true value of the fiat money.
Then I guess I don't understand your earlier comment; but oh well; off topic anyway I guess.
@Jakquai: "Labor is the true value of the fiat money."
No. It's only one component of the value. There's also intellectual property, organization, risk-taking. The world doesn't move on labor alone.
@xenoview
Should a doctor be paid the same as a fast food worker?
SHOULD A DOCTOR BE PAID MORE THAN THE OWNER OF KOCH INC.?
For doing the same job? Probably.
@Algebe
No. It's only one component of the value. There's also intellectual property, organization, risk-taking. The world doesn't move on labor alone.
How would the world move without labor? I'm not talking about the poor working man...but labor every person brings to the world. Risking financial funds is only a factor because that is how we have created our society to behave.
@Jakquai: "How would the world move without labor?"
I didn't say that. I'm saying that the world does not move by labor alone. Labor is just one component of value creation.
How can labor work without organization? What can labor do without intellectual property? (Even a shovel or a hammer embody a certain amount of technology). How would factories start up if someone wasn't willing to risk their capital?
How about a few trust fund babies that live off the funds of their families and will never contribute to society. Is that greed? If not? What is greed? Is the goal to achieve maximum wealth and then piss on your fellow man??
@Jakquai: "How about a few trust fund babies that live off the funds of their families and will never contribute to society. Is that greed?"
Are you sure you're not looking at this question through envy-colored glasses?
Sure trust fund babies are sorry, worthless assholes. That's sad for them. It reminds me of a line in a Kurt Vonnegut novel: "It's impossible to admire someone who's never done anything." But their existence and their inherited wealth doesn't reduce your well-being by one cent.
You mean like Gates and Carnage?
@Algebe
Okay, so what is your caste system values?
Jakquai: "Okay, so what is your caste system values?"
LOL. What on earth do you mean?
I don't envy them. I know that having that amount of wealth would carry a whole new ship load of problems. I'm just trying to get a grasp of what you all think about greed and if you all think it's immoral or not. It definitely not a moral dilemma that I'm personally battling with. Just thought it would be an interesting concept to discuss. But sounds like most like to think I'm attacking the concept rather than just bring it up and push prevalent issues of the topic.
Caste system is the form of economy use in India and probably many still use today that issues a system of value of persons based on hereditary birth right. Kinda like the royalty, or the holy, or the wealthy.
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