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Bringing you atheist articles and building active godless communities takes hundreds of hours and resources each month. If you find any joy or stimulation at Atheist Republic, please consider becoming a Supporting Member with a recurring monthly donation of your choosing, between a cup of tea and a good dinner.
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@LogicForTW
So to you, Is greed more of a motivational factor of incentive rather than the results of what one actually does?
@Algebe
I'm not sure how much you know about economics, but here's a video on youtube that might grant you some insight into what I think would be a better economic system.
https://youtu.be/8xGY6Lc71ns
Democracy at Work? The video's a bit short and light on detail, but it looks like a scheme for workers owning the means of production. You know that's been tried before, right? It's always ended up with a Stalin, Mao or Kim owning the workers who own the means of production.
How is this new social movement different from other failed experiments?
Well, there are worker coops that are in production today and they are currently quite successful. And it is helping prevent the exploitation of labor resources. It's not the democracy at work organization that I wanted to shine light on, but a democratic economic system to perhaps help prevent the exploitation of labor.
Have you ever heard of Max Weber?
https://youtu.be/ICppFQ6Tabw
Max Weber? Yes. The "Protestant Work Ethic", etc. What about him?
I posted a youtube video of the his concept of his thoughts on ideas and social change. You may find it interesting. I was hoping that you would perhaps see that old ideas and concepts can be modified and evolve to become great improvements in society.
@Jakquai "old ideas and concepts can be modified and evolve to become great improvements in society"
That's what I've always thought. It's a long time since I read Weber, but I believe he argued initially that capitalism grew out of Protestant ideals, but he later changed his mind or concluded that capitalism had grown beyond religion or become independent of it.
If you look at it empirically, capitalism has brought more improvement in the human condition than any other -ism in history. That can be measured in various social indicators, like longevity, health, literacy, standards of living. It's also had negative effects, like pollution, overcrowded cities, terrible working conditions, exploitation. But if your car drives fine but is belching smoke out of the tail pipe, do you throw the car away, or do you get the engine tuned? I think that capitalism can be refined, tuned, and perfected.
Terrible working conditions. Algebe? Compare to what? I'm interested in understanding what you mean by terrible.
@CyberLN
You should read "The Peoples History of the United States" by Howard Zinn. Perhaps it will grant you a concept of terrible working conditions.
I wanted to know how Algebe viewed it, not someone else. That's why I asked him. Thanks anyway.
Oh I'm sorry, I didn't realize I wasn't allowed to comment to you? Or are you referring to Howard Zinn?
I don't need, as you suggested, a better understanding of the subject in general. Algebe made a comment and I wanted to better understand of his thoughts, not that author's thoughts. That's why I directed my question to him. I think you may have made an incorrect assumption about my motives with that post. It happens.
I meant terrible compared with what we expect today, not compared with pre-industrial conditions in agrarian economies. What we would consider terrible today would include child labor, working in close proximity with dangerous, noisy machinery, and breathing air filled with cotton dust.
Understood. Thx, Algebe.
What do you understand by "terrible working conditions"?
I doubt anything can reach a point of perfection, but I do believe that our society and culture should continue to strive to get as close to achieving perfection and never stop by assuming that we have achieved it.
Just like the old Lowe's building center advertises.."Never Stop Improving" lol
It really depends upon the context.
If we are talking someone who gathers as much as he can without a care for others, then yes... 100% it is immoral.
If someone is driven to strive to succeed then and does well, without harming others then I would say no it is fine.
On the whole though, greed tends to me immoral
@Jakquai
I don't know how old you are or what experiences you have had, nor do I know you level education. That being said you have proposed a core principle of communism. Not one that has ever been practiced and I don't intend to have used the term communism as a dirty word.
The thing is that Karl Marx concluded as you have done that money is a fiat of the government and he was wrong.
Money represents a commodity nothing more. It isn't a government fiat. The government manipulation of money can and is a perversion of the use of money, but not money itself.
This communist idea point entails wealth distribution. It ignores the need for vision and creativity. Capitalism does pay attention to innovation actually counts on it, BUT, capitalism is the easiest of all practices that is corruptible and abused.
We all look for the best way for society to provide for all and also reward those deserving. All ideas have flaws. What drives the way to govern the way for a society to exist is need.
Can you imagine the population extended to the Moon and Mars? Likely there will be only one government, one language, made up of multicultural societies.
This is proven studying feral dogs. They all revert to a particular breed after just a few generations.
Are you sure you are not confusing communism with socialism?
Are you a follower of philosophical objectivism?
Ayn Rand philosophy
What I most recall from Karl Marx is "Conflict Theory" that he introduced into the realm of philosophy. Perhaps it might do you well to brush up on Marx with an open mind?
This is taking the conversation possibly a different direction, but possible future inventions, especially those surrounding AI, may force the issue on changing how we view money and capitalist markets.
If there is enough resources for every person on the planet to have decent shelter, power, running water and sewer, healthcare, basic food, should those be universal? A bit like air?
What if we take our interconnectivity like all those kids glued to their smartphones all day everyday, to the next level? VR worlds, where the resources consumed are simply computing cycles and human creativity? Combine this with the last idea and you begin to see possibly a large shift needed in the current way of things.
And then of course there is AI. Usually productivity gains from technology creates more new jobs, but perhaps there is an upper limit on that. Self driving cars alone threatens millions upon millions of jobs in the US alone. And that is just one industry that AI could effect. It can also multiply human efficiency to the point where just a few working humans could support the rest of society's needs.
And then, there is also the current problem of extreme run away income/wealth inequality.
I feel some or all these issues will force a rethink on how we do economics.
LogicforTW: "but possible future inventions, especially those surrounding AI, may force the issue on changing how we view money and capitalist markets."
I think there are huge changes on the horizon over the next couple of decades. What kind of world will it be when machines can do everyone's job? I'm sure Henry Ford didn't worry much about putting people in horse-related industries out of work, but this is different. AI is going to take the work away from everyone, including doctors, lawyers, accountants, soldiers.... So how will the economy work? If there are no jobs at all, nobody will be able to buy the stuff that the robots make.
I think we'll need a whole new model for supply and demand, production and consumption. And we'll need a new approach to being human. Will we all just sit around all day writing bad poetry about our ennui and angst while robots do all the work? Perhaps one day we'll hear one of those robots utter the words "I'll be back."
But that was a bad robot that was reprogrammed to help save the world!
And also become governor of California. (And would of ran for presidency if it was not for native citizen requirement.)
Seriously though, yeah, it seems likely this capitalism way of doing things is going to have to be severely modified, within our lifetimes. And this runaway income inequality in the US, (and many other parts of the world,) needs to be addressed much sooner then that.
Sam Harris has voiced several concerns about the speed at which we are developing artificial intelligence, and it's possible repercussions.
Yeah, especially in the job front.
We are still a long ways away from an "evil sky net" like consciousness though. All self learning, machine learning like AI programs that are not just 1000's upon thousands of lines (or millions) of lines of precise instructions, but instead are truly "self learning" are only super hyper focused on one task. Like looking at and comparing cat pictures.
I know I am getting further off topic here... But:
I am always interested how theist will handle it, if and when we create an AI intelligence that does actually in many ways supersede our own intelligence. That intelligence moving at increasing intelligence at the spend of potentially: light, (pending a few of humans or the AI's own advancements,) will also advance so quickly that it will be god like in power and intelligence in short order to us humans.
LogicForTW: "I am always interested how theist will handle it, if and when we create an AI intelligence that does actually in many ways supersede our own intelligence. That intelligence moving at increasing intelligence at the spend of potentially: light, (pending a few of humans or the AI's own advancements,) will also advance so quickly that it will be god like in power and intelligence in short order to us humans."
So true, so true!
Back on topic, I don't find greed (as a sentiment) wright or wrong per se... Except (as it has already been said) if the money (as a result of the greed) causes profound inequality or it's obtained by evil means (theft, abuse, hoax...). Should be a limit to accumulate wealth? Since it's very difficult to draw that line, what goverments should do is to ensure wealth distribution with a real PROGRESSIVE TAX RATE and ban tax havens. I don't know if this happens in your countries, but in mine in some cases, corporations pay less that 1% in taxes, meanwhile I've paying around 23% in taxes for the last ten years, in a standard job in an office. I certainly find that immoral.
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