Guys, God Necessarily IS.

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Jarret Petty-two's picture
Guys, God Necessarily IS.

[Not being a fallacy of false dichotomy, I am neither a theist (non-atheist) or atheist. I am of no religion, understanding God necessarily is. I use only science, math, logic, and correct thinking and reasoning to find the obvious nature of God as the necessary existence for all other things in our existence. I do not concern myself with beliefs or faith (unless you wish to dissolve all knowledge into the categorical and egocentric predicaments).]

The first issue when it comes to the topic of God is that people think incorrectly. It’s not God that has not been shown in science, rather it is science which has already confirmed your logical fallacies, cognitive distortions and cognitive biases, preventing many from understanding God. Allow me to state this boldly: Everyone has a belief of God, once introduced to God. Many modern atheists have suggested that semantics dictates their neuropsychology, thinking that they are above their own neuroanatomy by suggesting “they lack a belief in God”. This is inaccurate. Let me explain this simply: your ventromedial prefrontal cortex does not subtract ideas, subtract thoughts, or subtract neuronal cliques. Instead, your brain and mind make judgement calls based on your own apperception. In laymen terms, an atheist holds the belief that God is a ‘guy in the sky’, and since this sounds ridiculous, they then disbelieve in this conception.

This happens because of cognitive biases and cognitive distortions. 98% of people think incorrectly when contemplating God. Most people are victims of heuristic biases and cascade cognitive biases (largely due to the religious dictation of God). Please understand, religion is people doing people things and has no determinacy of God. In fact, different religions are just different interpretations of God.

So, what is God? God is seen as the creator of all existence (‘creator truly being a personification bias, anthropic bias, and reification logical fallacy). Instead of starting the first distortion, rather than “creator”, let’s use “source (A) and mereological sum of existence (Ω)”. God has also been properly defined as “Necessary Existence” by philosophers. All of those religious stories you are familiar with are just man-made stories, and the different religious sects are just different interpretations which can easily be explained by history and cultural (sociological and anthropological) differences.

This is a very large topic since this concerns the existence of all things that exist. So instead of filling you guys with words I want to state a point for later discussion and then hop directly into correct thinking.

The point: There is already evidence and proof of God in scientific data, logic, and maths.

Correct thinking: instead of giving you guys a story, I’m going to simply give you guys correct thinking in the form of raw data, showing how you need to first consider the necessity of God for our existence by identifying the correct placement where X must be necessary and x inevitably being God. Getting to it:

Can God exist?

[First thing first- G is not Contingent if and only if G is necessary or impossible. As G implies the Necessary Existence for all else in existence (therefore cannot be contingent on any other existent thing) G is only Necessary or Impossible.]

Necessarily, It is possible G exists if and only if it is not necessary G does not Exist.
It is necessary G exists if and only if it is not possible G does not exist. In other words, It is necessary G exists if and only if it is not impossible that G exists and it is impossible G exists if and only if it is not necessary G exists.

Is God impossible?

Impossible is most accurately defined as 0 probability or 0 chance. Thus, Impossible defined as 0 probability or 0 chance is materially equivalent to 0 probability or 0 chance equal to impossibility. However, 0 probability or 0 chance does not entail impossible, therefore 0 probability or 0 chance does not accurately define Impossible, logically implicating Impossible is impossible. Impossible being logically Impossible, It is possible G necessarily exists.

Is it probable G is impossible?

“Statistical impossibility is a probability that is so low, *but not truly impossible* as impossible outcomes have a probability of zero, while zero probability outcomes are necessarily not impossible.” A zero probability outcome is expressed as a denominator that approaches a constant before infinity and the entire expression approaches to a constant before absolute zero.

In relation to G, An impossible outcome is only an infinite approach to certainly impossible and never achieves 0 outcome or actual impossibility. The denominator of impossible outcome is most precisely defined as a constant infinity, where Infinite Impossible outcomes is infinitely accurate as necessarily impossible if and only if infinity is not infinity in the sense if infinity achieves infinity, thereby completing itself, it is inconsistent to infinity (now being finite), meaning the infinity of impossible outcomes will be inconsistent necessitating an outcome of possibility, and since G is not a contingent possibility, the outcome is necessary. Therefore it is possible G necessarily exists.

[This event occurs because Impossible is an effect rather than a cause, essentially conveying impossible is impossible (on the grounds of possibilities and probabilities), but what makes something actually impossible is if it lacks sufficient reason to exist at all, and conversely, what allows something to exist is if it has a sufficient (causal) reason to exist.]

|s God suffciently reasoned to exist?

The principle of sufficient reason states there is a sufficient (causal) reason for all that exists, introducing causality: the *connection* between cause and effect, where the cause is responsible for the effect, and the effect is dependent on the cause, with all existing states of events or objects determined by prior states of previously existing causes (causal determinism). In other words, everything that exists, is caused or sufficiently reasoned to exist by other sufficiently reasoned prior causes. God entails the first cause; the cause of all causes or reason of all reasons.

Existence is sufficiently reasoned to exist, like all other things that exist. If existence is not sufficiently reasoned to exist, then existence would not exist. The predicament arises in how existence is sufficiently reasoned to exist. There’s ultimately either the first Cause (God), supernatural magic (heuristic interpretation of God), infinite regress of causes (infinite contingency), or interdependent-teleological causation (which ultimately brings us right back to God). Only one of these explanations attempts to defy God—infinite regress of causes.

If existence is contingent on an infinite regress of causes, then 1) all labeled causes can be equally labeled as effects, rather than causes, insofar infinite regress of effects remain without cause for existence and causality does not exist or 2) all that exists (and all causes) are ultimately contingent, and existence (with all causation) depends on causes outside of existence. Causes outside of existence are nonexistent causes. Causes that are nonexistent, don’t exist, since they exist outside of existence. Therefore, existence cannot be dependent on nonexistent causes, concluding existence is not dependent on infinite regress of causes. Existence only ‘regresses’ to the first cause (source) of all existence, the source et al a.k.a God is sufficiently reasoned to exist.

Is there a distinction between all of existence and the source of existence?

The source of all existence presupposes all other things in existence, thus being a part and therefore like all other things in existence, existing as a part of all existence. But since the source has a unique property or function, unlike all else in existence by being the source, therefore it is distinct from all else in existence being unlike all other things in existence.

Can the source/ cause of existence have a source? (Can the creator have a creator?)

Being the source of existence, it is the cause for all other things in existence. To suggest this source has a source is to basically suggest that the source of all existence has a nonexistent source. Nonexistence doesn’t exist. Therefore, the source of all existence does not have a source itself since this such a source would not exist. Hence, the source is the source, period.

What must this source contain since we know we exist in this existence as it exists?

The source must be necessary and not contingent.
The source must be sufficiently reasoned.
The source must contain the mereological sum.
The source must necessarily have beingness for beings (creatures and us) to exist.

Such an entity, would necessitate particular properties:

Omniscience
Omnipresence
Omnipotence
Purity and perfection
Since these would be required to unify all existent things under a singular existence.

We already have this scientific data and reasoning people.

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watchman's picture
Erm…. ….. No.

Erm…. ….. No.

Just NO.

Thank you for your visit....

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=v0XKqiNLlLk

calhais's picture
You don't mean to imply that

You don't mean to imply that you were able to make sense of the OP, do you?

Jarret Petty-two's picture
1. Hitchens razor.

1. Hitchens razor.

2. Cognitive dissonance and backfire effect.

Sheldon's picture
1. Hitchens razor.

1. Hitchens razor.

2. Cognitive dissonance and backfire effect.
---------------------------------------------------------

Popcorn, shoe polish and relish.

Since we're just stringing random, unrelated words together.

Jarret Petty-two's picture
Sorry, this forum isn’t the

Sorry, this forum isn’t the most user friendly interface as my “Hitchens razor” comment is to the guy who said “no, just no” and apparently does not attach under his comment.

Sheldon's picture
Quote the text you're

Quote the text you're responding to. As for his No comment, it was perfectly justified as we have seen too many apologists breeze through here redefining the dictionary in order to misrepresent atheism as a belief or an assertion so they can dishonestly reverse the burden of proof.

If a deity exists the demonstrate some objective evidence for the claim. Claiming it is "necessary" just shows you can't imagine an alternative explanation for reality, that of course is an argumentum ad ignorantiam fallacy. It's an objective fact that the material universe exists, as does organic life, albeit in a minuscule part of that universe, as do natural phenomena. If you want to add unevidenced supernatural claims and or a deity, then Occam's razor applies unless you can demonstrate some objective evidence for the claim.

Jarret Petty-two's picture
There is at some point in

There is at some point in your understanding, where you somehow think a dictionary determines actuality. So let’s just cover atheism completely.

Atheism- “without God” is the etymology.
“See what had happened was” morphology of meanings after hundreds of years through rigorous debates and scrutiny have led to a new ‘interpretation’ of atheism to mean “disbelief or lack of evidence in God.”

So it is at this point that atheism no longer makes any actual sense since atheism no longer is the opposite of theism (the belief of God), and rather is some nonsense about claims only. Atheism no longer concerns God and is solely focused on human constructs such as claims.

Secondly, you cannot disbelieve in God. Disbelief doesn’t exist as a thought. It is emotive. Please, a simple google will verify disbelief occurs in the cingulate cortex and your belief center being your ventromedial prefrontal cortex. Your beliefs are regarded cognitive, while disbelief (of your basic emotion of surprise) is affective.

It seems no one knows how their own brain thinks and even more so, those that felt the need to change atheism to be more fitting and apologetic for jumping to conclusions about Gods existence (something considered Necessary for all else). Jumping to conclusions is a cognitive distortion.

You most certainly have a belief in God. If you would like me to prove it to you, we can by having a convo about G.

Your apperception is the body of ideas you posses. Chances are, like many others, that you believe God to be a “sky daddy” or “guy in the heavenly clouds” and since this seems so ridiculous to you you then disbelieve in it.

Then, you want to hop on “proof” as your last chance for redemption. Somewhere in your head, you think the existence or truth of something is purely dependent on humans to prove it and test it in science. For atheists who fit this discription, their religion would be called scientism.

Science can’t prove tomorrow. Meanwhile, correct thinking confirms tomorrow through the first law of motion.

Science can’t even get man to Mars, but science is suppose to prove the necessary existence of the thing which allows all other things to exist??

Science doesn’t need proof. Science already knows there exists unobservable and unknown universe outside and beyond the observable and known universe.

Lastly, science already has proof and data of God.

Moving to the rest of the nonsense. You calling God supernatural is you showing your belief of God already.

Supernatural is a made up word since nothing exists outside of nature. It’s a construct only term. Has no significance. It is related to sorcerers and wizards and ghosts and the paranormal even. Associated to God due to peoples interpretions of God. That’s all. You’re the one imposing such a distorted conception of reality, not me.

I can ‘demonstrate’ lots of things for God. In fact, I have nothing but evidence and proof. We haven’t gotten to that yet. We need to fix your preconceived notions and cognitive dissonance first if you want to understand God.

You’re used to talking to religious people and only thinking from your own level of perception. This requires an interactive approach.

We will get to proof after we fix all of the short cuts in thinking (heuristic Bias).

(It’s actually mind boggling how much atheists use their imagination when suggesting God is an imagined ‘deity’ lol)

arakish's picture
Experimental Discernment:

Experimental Discernment: Lastly, science already has proof and data of God.

By all means, please present this objective hard empirical evidence. Remember, yours is the burden of proof. And I ain't seen any.

rmfr

Jarret Petty-two's picture
Experimental discernment,

Experimental discernment,

Sure, and thanks for the completely necessary reminder of the Hitchens razor and burden of proof fallacy...

Just remember, doing it your way is a heuristic Bias, but here’s the objective (without your thoughts, feelings, or biases) evidence as wished:

In order:

God
Genus monism
- being: awareness we coined consciousness
(Which is the priority monism through):
Omnipotence: PSR
Omnipresence: quantum fields
Substance monism: ontic and noumenal mathematical logics
Omniscience: wave particle duality
Existence monism: energy, the singular and eternal energy that is the apparent form that transforms all expressed forms in existence which cannot be created nor destroyed.

*common arguments
-“that’s not proof of God! That’s proof of PSR, quantum fields, and the protoconsciousness of wave-particle duality!
easy reply: “gravity doesn’t call itself gravity” quantum fields aren’t calling themselves quantum fields. Wave-particle duality isn’t “wave-particle duality”. These are names we gave this naturally occurring phenomena. We ascribe names to things like the ‘Pauli Exclusion principle’ when this phenomena has nothing to do with Wolfgang Pauli and is principally phenomenal and noumenal. (Usually, this error stems from an anthropocentric bias.)

-“Energy is everything!” “Energy is infinite!”
-easy reply: ever wonder why Energy only transforms, nothing else? Why Energy just transforms into forms such as radiant energy, chemical energy, thermal energy etc? Because Energy is only form. Next step is to understand what’s forming. You can do this by understanding the law of conservation and what is necesarily the case for a constant preservation at the cost of constant compensation to occur. Also energy is not infinite, it’s eternal to the system/s. That’s why it cannot be created nor destroyed. There’s just one.

Feel free to comment whatever you please and I’ll explain in detail which can be verified.

Bonus: “intelligent design” =
negentropy⇄Entropy

arakish's picture
@ EI

@ EI

One thing I learned in writing, if you are going to use acronyms, you need to define it first. PSR? DO NOT force your reader to go looking for it. In other words, since these are a forum board with many posts, you need to define that acronym in each and every post you make. Unless it is virtually universally accepted, such as ASAP, FUBAR, etc.

PSR Physicians for Social Responsibility
PSR Poster
PSR Psychosocial Rehabilitation
PSR Pacific School of Religion
PSR Project Study Report
PSR Pre-Sentence Report
PSR Primary Surveillance Radar
PSR Periodontal Screening and Recording
PSR Problem Steps Recorder
PSR Pressure-State-Response
PSR Policy and Survey Research
PSR Project Status Report
PSR Polarimetric Scanning Radiometer
PSR Price/Sales Ratio
PSR Periodic Safety Review
PSR Proton Storage Ring
PSR Potential Support Ratio
PSR Point of Safe Return
PSR Pre-Ship Review
PSR Perfectly Stirred Reactor
PSR Pre-Shipment Review
PSR Pipelines Safety Regulations
PSR Rwandan Socialist Party
PSR Private Sponsorship of Refugees
PSR Pacific-Sierra Research Corporation
PSR Program Support Representative
PSR Police Service Representative
PSR Product Support Representative
PSR Phase Shift Register
PSR Pescara, Italy - Liberi
PSR Primary Science Review
PSR Pacific Sound Resources
PSR Personal Service Representative
PSR Photic Sneeze Reflex
PSR Project Status Review
PSR Performance Summary Report
PSR Photonic Slot Routing
PSR Panavision Silent Reflex
PSR Packet Success Rate
PSR Parallel Synchronized Randomness
PSR Primary Surface Recuperator
PSR Primary Status Register
PSR Phrase Structure Rule
PSR Preliminary Safety Report
PSR Precision Segmented Reflector
PSR Public Search Room
PSR Personnel Status Report
PSR Purdue Solar Racing
PSR Priorité Socialiste Réunion
PSR Product Sales Representative
PSR Program Support Review
PSR Performance Status Report
PSR Procurement Status Report
PSR Page Send-Receive
PSR Pro Specia Rara
PSR Princely States Report
PSR Program Summary Record
PSR Program on Survey Research
PSR Perceptual Soundfield Reconstruction
PSR Performance, Scalability and Reliability Testing
PSR Propeller Shaft Rate
PSR Parachute Status Report
PSR Predicted Sonar Range
PSR Parental Supervision Required
PSR Primary System Relief
PSR Partial Scan Results
PSR Program System Request
PSR Preliminary Science Review
PSR Prior Service Record
PSR Production Surveillance Reporting
PSR Policy Status Record (insurance)
PSR Postattack Status Report
PSR Price Stabilization Rate
PSR Personnel Status Review
PSR Production Structure Reengineering
PSR Primary State Road/Route
PSR Program Status Report/Review
PSR Purchasing System Redesign
PSR Partido Socialista Revolutionário
PSR Private Sector Reports
PSR Productivity Software Resources, Inc.
PSR Protected Switch Ring
PSR Project Supervision Rating
PSR Path Segment Restoration
PSR Personal Savings Rate
PSR Polskie Stowarzyszenie Racjonalistów
PSR Public Service Regulation
PSR Please Stop Requesting
PSR Personal Stress Reliever
PSR Pulsar
PSR Puget Sound Region

And yet in your post, I see NO objective hard empirical evidence. All I see is word salad, or more technically, all I see is Absolutist Apologetic beguiling dialectical semantics. Words are not objective hard empirical evidence.

Please tell me. Do you even know what objective hard empirical evidence is?

Objective Hard Empirical Evidence is something I can take into a lab and subject to a ridiculous number of tests to prove its veracity or falseness. Words do not count.

rmfr

Jarret Petty-two's picture
Arakish?, fair. Principle of

Arakish?, fair. Principle of Sufficient Reason. I am commenting plenty and to many. Did figure you would take some intellectual integrity into account and fish for it elsewhere, reading other comments perhaps. No big deal. Doesn’t change anything.

Considering your conditions, it would be impossible to show you objective hard evidence if words are not taken for what they are suggesting since we are after all, communicating using words... I cannot jump through my phone screen and demonstrate any of this for you. My apologies for this dilemma.

Are you saying you need to take yourself into a lab and test yourself over and over again to confirm to yourself you have consciousness? It would require your consciousness to do this in the first place. (You sure you’re thinking correctly here?)

The faith and belief in scientism in the atheistic world is pseudo-intellectually quasi-cognizant to the nature of truth, proof, evidence, and actualization.

Instead of applying your heuristic bias, why don’t you ask specifically what you want hard objective evidence for, which I am telling you science already has the data.

Consciousness?
Math?
Energy?
Quantum fields (tensors, scalars etc)?
Wave-particle duality?
Principle of sufficient reason?

“World salad” is “ poppy poopy popcorn”.

“Negentropic coherency allows intersubjectivity between our hierarchical attitudes of mind in Triadic reciprocal causation...” is not word salad. If you knew the meanings of these words and could understand what’s being said, it wouldn’t seem like a word salad. Existence is not dependent on human incognizance. Human incognizance is dependent on the causation occurring in our neuropsychology in reciprocal determinism with our environment.

I told you this would occur if we did it your way. You wanted the empirical evidence of God, and I gave it to you without explaining it all. You didn’t ask, and wanted it your way. This is what happens.

arakish's picture
Existential Intelligence (NOT

Existential Intelligence (NOT!): Did figure you would take some intellectual integrity into account and fish for it elsewhere, reading other comments perhaps. No big deal. Doesn’t change anything.

Intellectual Integrity falls onto you the writer. NOT me the reader. Fishing for it in other SEPARATE "papers" (posts) has nothing to do with my integrity. And yes, when YOU fail at intellectual integrity, it does change everything.

And, as a BTW, I never read the rest of your post above to which I now reply. As soon as you made that childish and retarded statement quoted above, I knew I did not need to read it. I knew it was nothing more than word salad due to your intellectual integrity.

It just goes to show you are an Absolutist Apologist, regardless of what your OP stated.

Existential Intelligence (NOT!): I am neither a theist (non-atheist) or atheist. I am of no religion...

As Sheldon pointed out, you CANNOT be both a believer AND a non-believer.

And if you do believe in this Sky Faerie and/or the Magic Zombie Virgin, then you ARE religious by definition. No matter the amount of word salad you spew, you still MUST rely on FAITH in your belief. This also makes you a LIAR! Basically, you are an hemorrhoid spewing diarrhea.

Want to know what FAITH stands for? Forever Accepting Idiocy Thanks to Him.

I am not religious. Yes, I am an Atheist. Yes, I am an Anti-Theist. However, the best terms to describe me are Anti-Religionist and Apistevist. And I am also Militant. However, for me, militant is defined:

I attack religions and their beliefs, and what their immoral and savage indoctrination processes do to people. This does not mean I am going to bomb gatherings of people, burst down the doors and shoot everyone in sight, or plow a vehicle into a crowd of people (like the Absolutists do), it means I am not going to stop myself from using any harsh and/or offensive language. I shall never, ever try to not offend anybody anymore anywhere anytime. This does not mean I shall go out of my way to purposefully offend people (excepting those who truly deserve it and/or are just pushing my patience), but I shall not be able to not offend someone somewhere sometime. And... always... remember... this: Only YOU can give a word, phrase, sentence the power to offend YOU!

The above also applies to the new age bullshit you are throwing around here on these forums.

As your voodoo bullshit about how "just being introduced to God" constitutes a belief, shows you are so fucking delusional. Being introduced to God is a THOUGHT process. NOT a belief. A belief is an argument a person holds to be true, whether factual or fantasy, after the thought process has performed an analysis.

As I said, even at the ignorant age of 3yr 7m, I still had enough reason to realize everything in the Bible was a bunch of bullshit. Then when I heard that Sunday Sermon on Original Sin 2yr 3m later (I was 5yr 10m), that simply cemented that the Bible and God and Jesus and the Angels and everything else having to do with religion is just the biggest, most ginormous pile of horse hoowhee that has ever been created. Even Heracles wouldn't be able to clean that pile.

You, sir, are an Absolutist Apologist who is pawning all the new age bullshit by trying to apply pseudoscience. Your arguments are nothing more than a dressed up God of the Gaps Argument.

You, sir, definitely fit this description (I paraphrase): “...rarely capable to determining what is real from what they wish to be real.” — Richard Dawkin’s, The God Delusion.

rmfr

Jarret Petty-two's picture
Arakish,

Arakish,

1. Intellectual integrity is defined as recognition of the need to be true to one's own thinking and to hold oneself to the same standards one expects others to meet.

If I tell you there’s cops outside, you shouldn’t expect me to prove it to you. You should find out. Truth is not dependent on any person. Truth of a matter is completely up to you at all times. You are not in control of anyone else but yourself.

2. There’s clearly an issue with this whole “belief” thing. You’re telling me I’m forced into a logical fallacy of false dichotomy, is this accurate?

I have no beliefs here. Just simple understanding. The only way this is considered a belief is if we are going to reduce all knowledge into the categorical and egocentric predicaments.

3. Your use of sky fairies and whatever other nonsense clearly demonstrates your inability to understand God, the necessary existent thing for all existence, vs conceptions and interpretations of God, detached from the meaning implied by God and juxtaposed with entertainment constructs like Odin, FSM, or God eating Dragons. You are speaking from your imagination while trying to discredit actuality of existence. It’s kind of weird when you really consider the errors here lol.

4. You can sit here all day and tell me what a belief is by semantic inference, and I can sit here all day and explain to you how apperception works and your ventromedial prefrontal cortex building connections between neuronal cliques in your connectome lol.

5. The rest of your comment just discusses religion and some anecdotal fallacy about Jesus and religious experiences you had.

Sheldon's picture
" Intellectual integrity is

" Intellectual integrity is defined as recognition of the need to be true to one's own thinking and to hold oneself to the same standards one expects others to meet."

Well you just Googled that, it's the very first hit. I have no problem with the broad definition, but why isn't in inverted commas?

As for understanding god, that's only possible when the individual precisely defines what they mean by god when they claim to believe it is real. Your posts haven't come close to this.

"You can sit here all day and tell me what a belief is by semantic inference, and I can sit here all day and explain to you how apperception works and your ventromedial prefrontal cortex building connections between neuronal cliques in your connectome lol."

Or you could define what it is you believe, and what you hope to achieve by sharing that belief. otherwise it's hard to see why you;re here.

Can we take it then that you have at least stopped pretending to have evidence for a deity? You certainly are no closer now to sharing anything that might be defined as proper evidence than when you made the claim.

Sheldon's picture
The dictionary defines common

The dictionary reflects common usage of words. The definition of atheism is not defined by the dictionary, it is defined by the most commonly understood usage of the word. Dictionaries merely reflect this. That aside I have no issue with people defining the word as they are using it with secondary definitions. However like so many theists you simply want to deny how most atheists define themselves, in favour of your own erroneous and subjective belief about them.

Here's a clue , I am an atheist. I don't believe in any deity or deities. This is not a belief and it's not a worldview, it's not a religion and it's not a claim or even an idea. Lastly you don't get to tell me how I view reality, just because my atheism seems a big deal to you, but is no more significant to me than any other belief I lack.

"So it is at this point that atheism no longer makes any actual sense since atheism no longer is the opposite of theism"

You're wrong. It makes perfect sense as the primary definition in the dictionary proves. It is not however the "opposite of theism. It is the absence of theism. Atheism like amoral and asexual is a simple enough concept.

"Secondly, you cannot disbelieve in God. Disbelief doesn’t exist as a thought. It is emotive. "

Complete nonsense. Is your lack of belief in mermaids just an emotion then? I suggest if you want to indulge this nonsense you speak only for yourself and stop trying to tell others what they think.

"Chances are, like many others, that you believe "

You have no idea what I believe, none. You're simply making subjective generic guesses based on your own prejudice against an entire demographic you don't like in order to prop up a belief you can demonstrate no objective evidence for.

"Moving to the rest of the nonsense. You calling God supernatural is you showing your belief of God already."

No it isn't, theism unlike atheism has doctrinal teachings and dogma. If you believe in a natural deity fine, then claims about that deity are falsifiable and can be tested by science. Other theists though believe in a deity that is supernatural. That's an objective fact.

"Then, you want to hop on “proof” as your last chance for redemption. "

Wrong again, all I ask is that you demonstrate objective evidence for your claim a deity exists that is commensurate to the claim. Proof is a misnomer as it implies (to me) absolute knowledge.

"Supernatural is a made up word since nothing exists outside of nature. "

Evidence that claim please.

"Science can’t even get man to Mars, but science is suppose to prove the necessary existence of the thing which allows all other things to exist??"

Only you mentioned science, I never mentioned it in my post. You're also using a begging the question fallacy as you have yet to evidence any deity or evidence your claim it is necessary.

"Lastly, science already has proof and data of God."

A bizarre claim after your last rant against the efficacy of science I must say. However you are wrong, Hitchens's razor applies.

"Supernatural is a made up word since nothing exists outside of nature. It’s a construct only term. Has no significance. It is related to sorcerers and wizards and ghosts and the paranormal even. "

I'm inclined to agree, though I'd not go further that pointing out that no one can demonstrate any objective evidence for anything supernatural.

" I can ‘demonstrate’ lots of things for God. In fact, I have nothing but evidence and proof. We haven’t gotten to that yet. "

Yet your verbiage has offered nothing but overblown wordy claims and denials of dictionary definitions. Sorry but I've seen this trick and pony show too many times already.

"You’re used to talking to religious people and only thinking from your own level of perception. This requires an interactive approach."

What I'm used to is religious people breezing ontobthis forum and then breifly raving to producing these grandiose claims that always amount to naught. Still no evidence from you though tic toc...

"We will get to proof"

Now it's proof? You just claimed proof was a nonsensical idea.

"(It’s actually mind boggling how much atheists use their imagination when suggesting God is an imagined ‘deity’ lol)"

Yet that overblown wordy rant of yours provided not one shred of evidence for any deity, just the same old apologetic cliches, a scatter gun of unevidenced claims from the first word to the last. Quelle surprise...

Dave Matson's picture
Existential,

Existential,

Who told you that science deals in proof and certainty?

Aposteriori unum's picture
"Science can’t prove tomorrow

"Science can’t prove tomorrow. Meanwhile, correct thinking confirms tomorrow through the first law of motion."

What does anyone need to prove about tomorrow? That it will come? That it exists? That it's a concept? Besides, science doesn't prove anything, mathematics does. Science finds the best explantions of observed phenomena in the natural world and makes predictions that can be tested based on these explanations and observations.

"Science can’t even get man to Mars, but science is suppose to prove the necessary existence of the thing which allows all other things to exist??"

We don't even know if necessary existence is a thing. For all we know everything could be contingent.

"Science doesn’t need proof. Science already knows there exists unobservable and unknown universe outside and beyond the observable and known universe."

We don't and possibly cannot know about anything outside our universe; especially, as you say, if it is "unobservable."

"Lastly, science already has proof and data of God.

Moving to the rest of the nonsense. You calling God supernatural is you showing your belief of God already."

Never heard of such a thing. Perhaps you can site some sources for this proof and data. And I don't see how calling a unicorn pink means that I already believe in it. I mean, calling god supernatural... yeah.

I know I'm a little late, but I couldn't resist.

Old man shouts at clouds's picture
@ Aposteri!

@ Aposteri!
Dude. Missed you! Incisive as always.
Dont be so estranged!!

Jarret Petty-two's picture
Sheldon,

Sheldon,

Let me explain necessity quickly to you. Let’s start with the fact you necessarily exist in an existence which didn’t happen magically. If you think it’s magic, you might as well just believe in God.

Classic law of thought (limit of thought) is the law of identity a=a. What makes a=a? a can refer to anything and even everything. So what makes it dinstinguisble from any other a or b? Hint: it’s not the identity of a.

a+□+0=a.
a+□(0)=a.
a+0=a.
a+(□+0x0^□+0+□+0+□+0...)=a.

It is necessary that the condition exist that nothing necessarily be added to a for a to be a. Lol.

Sheldon's picture
Lol indeed. All I see is

Lol indeed. All I see is another string of unevidenced claims, peppered with false assumptions about what I believe. Even though I have not claimed to believe the assumptions you've assigned to me.

What objective evidence can you demonstrate that any deity exists, and or is necessary?

calhais's picture
Redefining the dictionary . .

Redefining the dictionary . . . .

The inaccuracy of that description gives it the potential to be used as a pejorative. Both informally and academically, it is acceptable to assign definitions to words at will as long as words that have been defined other than as they are defined by an authoritative dictionary are somehow demarcated. In academic texts in philosophy, theology, and older mathematical texts, block letters (OR ALL CAPS) were used to denote specially defined words.

Claiming it is "necessary" just shows you can't imagine an alternative explanation for reality . . . .

That is an invalid inference, edging toward or perhaps constituting what I suppose you would call a fallacy ad hominem. This holds as long as the total number of arguments known to have been made by a person remains small: the absence of a strong argument is, at most, weak evidence for the absence of the ability to produce a strong argument. The minimal degree of epistemological caution observed in accepted science (save for in the more modern `fields' of women's studies and the likes) forbids induction toward the absence of something if you only have one data point. The user you've just responded to has presented only one argument, which is what had to be shown.

Argumentum ad ignorantiam fallacy . . . .

I doubt that Existential has gone this far yet, and I can't find where he clearly claimed that God exists because there is no known proof that God does not exist. Perhaps it's because I struggle to read Existential's broken English, or, perhaps, it is because you misidentified the fallacy. Either explanation is reasonably well supported by induction, so I'll give you benefit of the doubt: procure the body. Where did Existential clearly argue that God exists because there is no known proof that God does not exist? I think that you're being hasty about Existential's argument. The real problem, if I may opine, is that it's nearly unreadable.

Sheldon's picture
I already stayed I had no

I already stated I had no problem with him redefining words , with the caveat he accepts his definition isn't the commonly understood or used definition, which is in the dictionary. Also that he stops trying to tell others how they must define their lack of belief.

I'd agree his wordy verbiage is not easy to read.

Tin-Man's picture
*opens door quickly*....

*opens door quickly*....*sticks head inside room*....Fish farts!... Pneumatic popsicles!... Lettuce!.... Chicken gums - Tire - Skyscraper gnats!....*ducks back out*....*closes door quickly*.....

*opens door again and yells inside*...Sorry! Couldn't resist!....*slams door loudly*....*sound of running footsteps fading away*...

Sapporo's picture
Firstly, can you prove that

Firstly, can you prove that existence was created?

calhais's picture
That's almost as nonsensical

That's almost as nonsensical as the OP. The proposition that existence was created implies the statement that existence exists, which doesn't seem to be a meaningful proposition.

Jarret Petty-two's picture
I’m not sure I follow your

I’m not sure I follow your thinking here? What’s wrong with implying existence exists? It does. All that exists is existence, and it clearly does exist since you and I are arguing about existence...

Sapporo's picture
By existence, I understand

By existence, I understand the OP to mean the natural world.

Jarret Petty-two's picture
Sapporo,

Sapporo,

“By Existence, I understand the op to mean the natural world.”

Yes, sure. All that exists as it actually exists in and outside of our world, earth.

Jarret Petty-two's picture
Are you suggested that

Are you suggested that Existence is eternal and/or magic? That’s worse than understanding God.

Something can be eternal, by being sourced. Most people perceive ‘cause’ as a chronological occurrence, when this is not necesarily the case.
Using the term “created” hurts ones cognizance. Start thinking in terms of “sourced”.

Please, what do you mean by prove? Demonstration? Reinactment? That would be difficult under these conditions since either of these will already be existing in existence.

Sapporo's picture
To say that something can be

To say that something can be created from nothing is not a falsifiable statement. It isn't scientific to say that things without causes exist. Thus I cannot see how you could prove that nature was created.

You are inventing a cause where none was needed, and not actually solving the infinite regress issue mentioned in your argument. You say that "Causes that are nonexistent, don’t exist, since they exist outside of existence.", but invoke a creator that is outside its creation.

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