So it has been a while since I last posted here but I just wanted to say that I am in a little big crisis of faith right about now. To be honest I am worried I might develop a split personality okay maybe that is a bit of a exaggeration but I do sometimes feel that the one part of me is a theist and the other part not. The arguments I find most convincing are the mass miracles like Fatima (which has been in the news recently) and others like akita although to a lesser degree. on the other hand there are things like contradiction in scripture and split brain syndrome which leads me to believe otherwise.
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Miracles do not prove divine intervention, they prove causality. One event leads to another event, and the final outcome is dependent on all that happened before it. I don't know the circumstances of the miracles you mentioned, but I'm sure a thorough analysis would prove it to be nothing more than happenstance.
I made a thread about it about a month ago but to sum it up 70k people saw the sun dance and change color some said they thought the sun will hit earth after it was over the ground was dry.
That could be something like an astronomical occurrence. Or, seventy thousand people lied. Eye witness accounts don't prove anything in the science world because humans are unreliable. People lie all the time, and many are able to convince large amounts of people to believe crazy things. Look at the People's Temple cult in Jonestown, Guyana that killed themselves in the 1980s.
Yes but people in Lisbon that is like what 50 km away did not see anything. 70k is a big lie to get away with.it was also predicted
by a young girl and her friend to happen.
Actually this is an embellishment as well. The prediction was that Mary (virgin) would return. However, only those 3 girls claimed to see Mary during the "miracle" of the sun.
70,000?!? a very gross exaggeration. That alone should be enough to give you great pause. Look how easy it is to exaggerate religious claims; you just did it yourself!
Never mind the fact that after-images of the sun is a well known effect from starting at it. If you have never tried it, it produces an image of the sun with an off color that following your eyes; basically exactly what you just described! I already give you instructions on how to safely do this yourself. Did you even try it?
If you want to believe this non-sense; it is up to you. But this shit isn't going to convince anyone who doesn't already want to believe.
Perhaps it was a combination of things like mass hysteria and optical illusion. However there were some people who claimed to be miles away who also saw the sun move in zig zag motion. one person stated the people in the crowd looked like they were experiencing extreme torment.
Sounds like an after-image.
Why, in all of my nearly 60 years on this planet, have I never witnessed anything that even remotely resembled what I would call a "miracle"?
Why have I never met a person that could offer any evidence (other than unsubstantiated claims) that any miracle has ever occurred?
The safest position is that of the skeptic.
70K people did not see the "sun dance". Someone claims that 70K people saw the "sun dance".
There are photos of the crowd. The pope also claimed he witnessed it.
Funny how there is photos of people at the event; but no photos of the "miracle".
That is a good question. some the photos are actually of
different crowds.
Jacob, I am not arguing against the number of people in the crowd, only against the claim of what they witnessed. Just like I am not arguing against the pope existing, only against what is claimed that he witnessed. Why have I NEVER witnessed such an event?
What is your opinion on the prophecy's particularly those of the cold war.
I've already told you. It is total BS. I don't know why you believe this crap. All I can say is that I'm sorry.
So how then do you account for what 70000 people saw. I am not trying to come of as rude but look up some witness reports and think if it could have been a natural event.
I already explained it to you in this thread and in others; and I already pointed out that you grossly exaggerating when you say 70,000. As I pointed out before; these stories are almost always exaggerated; notice how you continue to exaggerate it yourself, EVEN AFTER THE EXAGGERATION HAS BEEN POINTED OUT TO YOU. It seems you can't help yourself.
So can you prove that 70000 people did not see it? to be fair some reports go from 10000 to 100000 this is just the one from the official one from the catholic church.
Notice: you have confused how many people were in attendance with how many saw the miracle. I'll go out on a limb and suggest that you're mixing up these two very different numbers is a defense mechanism of your religion. That you are willing to deceive (perhaps subconsciously) to defend your religious beliefs.
The burden of proof on this very VERY large fantastical claim belongs to the people that make it. Not unsurprisingly they have no proof beyond what people "said."
If it is suddenly switched and the burden of proof is on the people that deny any claim, everything falls apart. I can give you a long list of fantastical claims I just made up that you have to "disprove to me." I will pick things that you cannot easily disprove either, things of he said/she said nature.
Do you see the problem there? Do you see why the burden of proof lies with those making the radical claim? Even in science this occurs, at first, scientist had to prove the earth was round instead of flat, almost no one just "took their word for it" without any sort of evidence. Almost no one said: well this popular book over here says the earth was round based on personal accounts of people that traveled the world, but are long dead, guess we better just take their word for it!
"There has been much analysis of the event from critical sociological and scientific perspectives. Critics believe that the eyewitness testimony was actually a collection of inconsistent and contradictory accounts, and have arrived at fully natural explanations for the supposed miracle. Proposed alternate explanations include a natural atmospheric disturbance, as well as witnesses being deceived by their senses due to prolonged staring at the sun and then seeing what they had come to the site expecting to see - something unusual."
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Miracle_of_the_Sun
Estimates range between 30 000 to 100 000 based on anyone's opinion
Read critical evaluation too
The pope was not present.
"not only did not all those present not see the phenomenon, but also there are considerable inconsistencies among witnesses as to what they did see".
Sorry but there's just too many counter arguments any other reason other than that stupid miracle?
@Nyar lol
Ok this is new Information. I did not know that there were those that claimed they saw nothing at all.
How is it possible that you didn't know that; given that clearly you have read a great deal on the topic? I hope you take this question very seriously; and I hope if gives you some insight into the cognitive dissonance you seem to be experiencing.
Mind if I ask where did you read that some people saw nothing at all.
You did not experience this event yourself, you only heard about it. You have no way to verify this event happened, all you can do is take other people's word for it. And if you just take other people's word for it, why do you not believe over 1 billion muslims in the world?
Science on the other hand, you can verify for yourself. Lots of simple things you can and do every day points to science and the scientific method for finding truths. Yes some are harder to test for yourself, they require years of training and expensive equipment but it can still be done.
Stop living in a world of taking other people's word for it, go find the real truth with your own 2 hands and your senses. Sometimes the answers and conclusions are not easy to stomach, but take pride in knowing you are no longer blinding yourself to the amazing world and a huge part of life as an intelligent being. Being an atheist is incredibly freeing.
My girlfriend lost her arm in a bus accident a phew years ago. I am now going to PRAY for god to heal her before the sun rises again. After that I will show you before and after videos to prove it to you. If she is not healed I would let my faith go.
You might enjoy this site: Why won't god heal amputees.
I do not believe you, that you will let your faith go by tomorrow morning if your girlfriend's arm does not magically grow back by tomorrow morning. (I also do not believe you have a girl friend that lost her arm a "phew" [sic] years ago from a bus accident.)
But hey, prove me wrong. I invite you to buy a high definition camera, film this posting as a timestamp, video your girlfriends clearly missing arm, beyond all reasonable doubt, run the camera nonstop without your girlfriend never leaving the camera fame, do your prayer thing, and then by sunrise tomorrow film your girlfriend's newly grown arm, in high definition. And film yourself making a posting here again. All the while having the camera run nonstop.
Do this, and one of two things will happen:
Your GF arm does not grow back. And maybe you will surprise me and actually drop your faith.
Or, you will radically change the world. Billions will flock to your particular religious denomination, you and your "girlfriend" will go down as quite possibly the most famous people ever, far eclipsing Trump, Hitler, George Washington, the Kardashians, etc.
The most likely scenario is this entire thread is that you are talking out of your ass, "having fun" or whatever. Again I would love it if you prove me wrong.
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