hear me out # 1

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Jordan's picture
hear me out # 1

I know most of you think I am trolling and perhaps I was a little- I was just having some fun with you guys since I do see atheists shamelessly take aim at Christians and religious people all the time calling them idiots, bigots, Bible baskets, etc.

I myself am constantly teetering back and forth on my beliefs and while I understand why some people choose not to believe in a God I do find many intriguing ideas to suggest the possibility of one. And if some atheists would put aside their seemingly hateful feelings towards the classical “God” I think they may realize beliving in a creator isn’t so foolish. So before reading further, I hope you will remain open minded.

There may never be “proof” in the sense most people expect. But I do think there is evidence. Imagine if you were in a painting and you were able to look around to see the different colors, you could dissect different pigments and characterize the techniques and types of paints used. You saw you were on a canvass and you were able to tell how long the paint had been dried. There is no sign of an artist. But perhaps you can detect the artist in the brush strokes.

Science has revealed a lot over the past few decades and with the explosion of video games and computer programming we can finally see how a lot of information can be condensed into code, formulas and math. The following reasons give indication that God is most likely a programmer and reality is an algorithm being played out through evolution, physics, chemistry and the laws of the universe.

1. The complexity of DNA. If you took all the DNA in your body and uncoiled and stretched it out, it would be 2 times the length of the solar system. DNA is an actual LANGUAGE with such precision iT has been compared to a work of Shakespeare. Bill gates said “DNA is like a computer program but far far more advanced than any software ever created”. Without guidance, evolution alone would have to produce a novel like instruction code through trial and error. It would be like tossing up all the scrabble prieces in the air and in the fallen mess there reads some distinct and meaningful message. These are not interpretations from theists but by the science community as a whole. Nowhere in the natural world do we see information! The ONLY time information exists is because there is a mind behind it. DNA alone by default should clue us in to the fact that there is very good probable cause for a creator.

2. Nature is made up entirely of mathematical properties and the universe is extremely FinED tuned. Even the famous cosmologist and atheist Lawrence Krause compared the Fine tuning of the universe to that of a pencil balancing on its tip... for billions of years. He went on to explain that our universe is constantly on the brink of collapse because of the extreme precision of all its properties. Almost as though some entity or property is balancing it?

3. Quantum physics shows us that reality is made up of tiny pixels. At our most sub atomic level we are made up of pixels and empty space similar to *cough computer simulation cough* quantum physics also reveals that our reality is in a constant state of possible realities (double split experiment) and that only through observation do our realities manifest. In other words, if no one is in a room, the room exists in a state of potentials. similarly in video games When your character is not on a certain part of the game, that part of the map is currently in a state of non existence.

4. Irreducibly complex cells. If you haven’t, please research this. If you are thinking that this has already been debunked, it has not. Sure biologists have found the components of the flagellum elsewhere in the cell but they have not in no way addressed the real issue here. I can explain this further upon request. I do believe irreducibly complex cells evolved, but not without intention.

5.Nobel prize winner Barbara McClintock conducted an experiment which showed cells actively taking initiative to heal themselves. After damaging only a part of a cell she was able to see the cell “make decisions” and “figure out” how to fix the damage area. Additionally there are many examples of cells interacting and behaving in such a way that suggests autonomy,
As if they have a mind of their own. Cells often communicate, exchNge information, solve problems and innovate solutions. These behaviors indicate more than simple reactions but are examples of cells taking free willed action.

Some hypotheticals but still worth mentioning:

6. Our theories and understanding of other dimensions shed light on how a creator would be possible. With a higher dimension, it makes sense how a single entity could know or be familiar with many individuals at any given time. It also explains how someone could appear seemingly out of nowhere

7. If God we’re a programmer it would be easier for him to hack the system and perform “miracles”

This topic wasn’t meant to address any particular God however:

8. In the Bible it says god created everything in 7 days. PERHAPS, created is meant in the sense that he “worked out” the part of the algorithm that particular day Just like a chef adds ingredients little by little in the pot. By creating all the necessary elements needed, God could put reality’s action. Imagine a spunge capsule being prepped and then unleashed into water and growing and expanding until it’s Unfolded into its final shape.

With all that said, I believe the chances that we wer created are very likely. It may be harder to fathom but none the less it is no longer an obscene idea based solely on a book.

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Old man shouts at clouds's picture
@ Jordan

@ Jordan

"Oh no, not this again"......maybe god is a Giant Cosmic Bunny, or a construct in Steve Job's nightmares, or maybe we are all created in the garage of some geeky nerds wargaming basement on hios water cooled i7 with a 12gb graphics card. FFS!

Fact is we can all play at What If? You do not have great arguments or even great intelligence to come up with anything I , for one, haven't heard before...and guess what...YOUR IDEAS ARE TOTALLY WITHOUT EVIDENCE.

It is the kind of shite you talk about with your mates over too many beers when you are in your twenties. Its bollocks, Jordan, bollocks unless you come up with some actual convincing evidence. As it is, you are counting your fingers and toes in the bath (while Mummy soaps your back) and coming up with thirteen, then trying to convince hard nosed, experienced debaters that your ill thought out speculation has any fucking merit whatsoever.

Trust me kid, stick to your frat buddies, they might take you seriously. Grown ups do not.

Jordan's picture
You are the perfect

@old man shouts...

You are the perfect demonstration of how immature this “debate” forum really is. If you are a grown up, the world is in pathetic hands.

My ideas are without evidence? Everything I brought up can be found in a science text. Go open one.

Old man shouts at clouds's picture
@ Jordan

@ Jordan
"EVERYTHING I brought up can be found in a science text" hahahaha....so god the programmer is in a SCIENCE text? Do fuck off noddy, you bore me.

Sapporo's picture
@Jordan

@Jordan
1) Do you think lying is acceptable?
2) Are you an atheist?

David Killens's picture
Jordan, please change your

Jordan, please change your profile to reflect the truth, that you are a non-atheist.

Until you start walking the path of honesty, your words are coming from a liar.

Nyarlathotep's picture
Jordan - Nowhere in the

Jordan - Nowhere in the natural world do we see information!

Uhh when the wind moves one rock and it bumps into another rock and puts a tiny mark on it; that mark is information.
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Jordan - Quantum physics shows us that reality is made up of tiny pixels.

I guess I missed that day of class. Can you tell us if magnetic moment of an electron is normal to the plane of the pixel, and if so is it with a right or left handed rule? I won't hold my breath.

Jordan's picture
@nyarlathotep

@nyarlathotep

Nice try. There are different levels of information and DNA, like language is highest level of complexity. It is specific information being conveyed with the intent of being understood. In other words the DNA codes, if altered even by one codon would result in a meaningless message. The code is also intended to be understood by the proteins and other mechanisms in the cells. Would you compare a bump on a rock to the complexity of a software system?

Nyarlathotep's picture
Jordan - ...and DNA, like

Jordan - ...and DNA, like language is highest level of complexity.

What are the dimensions of this complexity?

Jordan's picture
-distinction- different parts

@nylarthotep

-distinction- different parts of a complex system
Behave differently

-connection- that the knowledge of one part allows the determination of features of the other parts

-a break in symmetry or "symmetry breaking", by the fact that no part or aspect of a complex entitity can provide sufficient information to actually or statistically predict the properties of the others parts

Nyarlathotep's picture
@Jordan

@Jordan
That is not an answer.

If you told me your car's top speed was higher than my car's top speed; and you couldn't tell me the dimensions of speed; it is safe to assume you don't know what you are talking about.

You told us DNA is the highest level of complexity; but it seems you can't tell us its dimensions; accordingly, it is safe to assume you don't know what you are talking about.

Jordan's picture
@nyarlathotep

@nyarlathotep

Denying what I am saying doesn’t change the fact that you already know DNA is a complex system.

Nyarlathotep's picture
...you already know DNA is a

...you already know DNA is a complex system.

Lots of things are complicated. But you told us it had the most complexity. That is an argument of magnitude. So either you know how to calculate/measure that magnitude, and compared it to other things (finding that DNA did in fact have the largest value); OR you just made that shit up.

I'm guessing you just made it up. But I figured I'd give you an opportunity to show us otherwise, just in case I was wrong.

David Killens's picture
@Jordan

@Jordan

"In other words the DNA codes, if altered even by one codon would result in a meaningless message."

Bullshit. What do you think mutations are? What do you think birth defects are? How come siblings are not identical?

Talyyn's picture
@Jordan

@Jordan

You assume language is highest level of complexity. How do you know it is? And what kind of language? You talk about human language here obviously.

Tecolote's picture
If altered it wouldn’t be a

If altered it wouldn’t be a meaningless message. It would be a mutation, positive or negative. If this happens during protein processing, the protein to be produced would not be the intended one.

Jordan's picture
@nyarlathotep

@nyarlathotep

Do you belive life evolved from non life? Can you explain how it happened? Since their is no proof that life can evolve from non life I suppose it would be faith to believe such a thing? Since no one can explain it I suppose it would mean they have no idea what they are talking about?

Nyarlathotep's picture
Jordan - Since their is no

Jordan - Since their is no proof that life can evolve from non life...

There is no proof you or I are human beings, there is no proof I had bananas for breakfast.
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Jordan - Do you believe life evolved from non life?

Well I see it everyday in my garden when the plants (which I would say are alive) take up raw materials (nitrogen, carbon, etc) from sources that I would say are not alive, and build new structures with them that I would say are alive.

Jordan's picture
That’s not the same as

@nyarlathotep

That’s not the same as abiogenesis but I’m sure you already know that.

Sapporo's picture
@Jordan

@Jordan
How do you define "abiogenesis"?

Sapporo's picture
Jordan: Since their is no

Jordan: Since their is no proof that life can evolve from non life I suppose it would be faith to believe such a thing? Since no one can explain it I suppose it would mean they have no idea what they are talking about?

You should define "life" and "non life" first.

Tecolote's picture
There are only theories as to

There are only theories as to how the most basic of life forms came into being. The whole 7 day biblical explanation, however, is complete fiction. How was time counted in days with no sun or earth? If you want to try to believe in a God without the fantasy of the Bible you can still think that maybe there is a creator of some sort who nudged things into being. That would be a gnostic view. Atheists and agnostics choose to not believe in creation as opposed to believing just because they can’t explain it. Believing something leads to an unwillingness to be open to the possibility that your beliefs are wrong. No matter how much you try to explain that things must have been started by a creator, a lack of proof that god doesn’t exist does not equal proof that it does.

Jordan's picture
@tecolote

@tecolote

What do you believe?

Tecolote's picture
I believe that all religions

I believe that all religions are flawed and false and cause more harm than good in the world. I believe that neither I, nor anyone else will ever be able to fully know how life on this planet or any other started. I classify myself as agnostic because while I have some thoughts, opinions and experiences that lead me to think there is something more to the universe than what I can sense with my physical body, I am comfortable saying that I don’t know for sure and have no evidence. I am open to finding out when I die or simply ceasing to exist completely.

Jordan's picture
@nyarlathotep

@nyarlathotep

You don’t belive the cells in your body are intelligent? So you belive you are made up of entirely unintelligible material? Yet, somehow YOU are intelligent?

Hmmm...

How does that work? Please enlighten me.

Nyarlathotep's picture
Jordan - You don’t belive the

Jordan - You don’t belive the cells in your body are intelligent? So you belive you are made up of entirely unintelligible material? Yet, somehow YOU are intelligent?...How does that work?

The (mistaken) belief that sets can not have attributes that their components are missing is known as the fallacy of division/mereological fallacy.

Talyyn's picture
I guess he doesn't know about

I guess he doesn't know about emergent properties.

Randomhero1982's picture
Oh dear, Nyar is out here

Oh dear, Nyar is out here hitting nothing but net!!!

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Sapporo's picture
Jordan: You don’t belive the

Jordan: You don’t belive the cells in your body are intelligent? So you belive you are made up of entirely unintelligible material? Yet, somehow YOU are intelligent?

You should define what you mean by "intelligible" and "unintelligible".

Cognostic's picture
@Jordan: Can you give us an

@Jordan: Can you give us an example of one living thing that is not intelligent or self repairing to some degree.
Cells are alive and they carry out functions. How in the hell do you get to God from the fact that living things are alive?

life
The condition that distinguishes animals and plants from inorganic matter, including the capacity for growth, reproduction, FUNCTIONAL ACTIVITY, and continual change preceding death.

Definition of life (Entry 1 of 2)
1a : the quality that distinguishes a vital and functional being from a dead body
b : a principle or force that is considered to underlie the distinctive quality of animate beings
c : an organismic state characterized by capacity for metabolism , growth, reaction to stimuli, and reproduction

What is it you imagine you are saying that is different than just asserting, "Cells are alive."

Sheldon's picture
Jordan "You don’t belive the

Jordan "You don’t belive the cells in your body are intelligent? So you belive you are made up of entirely unintelligible material? Yet, somehow YOU are intelligent?

Hmmm...

How does that work? Please enlighten me."

The plug on a computer can't compute anything, but the computer won't work without it.

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