Hey - Davi - why is it OK to lie?

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Whitefire13's picture
Hey - Davi - why is it OK to lie?

Davi waltz into the private area, our relief zone, to offer up “new” spiritual advice to a poster.

The new advice? Pray and feel your way to god...

My question for this theist - WHAT gives you the right to lie? Most on here are trying to get to “what is true”...

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Cognostic's picture

JESUS WAS A LIAR: "Truly I tell you, this generation will certainly not pass away until all these things have happened." OOPS!

And Jesus answered and said to them, “Truly I say to you, if you have faith and do not doubt, you will not only do what was done to the fig tree, but even if you say to this mountain, `Be taken up and cast into the sea,’ it will happen. “And all things you ask in prayer, believing, you will receive.” (Matthew 21:21-22 NAS)

Ask and it will be given to you; seek and you will find; knock and the door will be opened to you. For everyone who asks, receives; and the one who seeks, finds; and to the one who knocks, the door will be opened. (Matthew 7:7-8 NAB)

Again I say to you, that if two of you agree on earth about anything that they may ask, it shall be done for them by My Father who is in heaven. For where two or three have gathered together in My name, I am there in their midst. (Matthew 18:19-20 NAS)

And whatever you ask in my name, I will do, so that the Father may be glorified in the Son. If you ask anything of me in my name, I will do it. (John 14:13-14 NAB)


boomer47's picture


"JESUS WAS A LIAR: "Truly I tell you, this generation will certainly not pass away until all these things have happened." OOPS!"

Yeah, that prediction was a bit embarrassing. That claim claim is made I think a few more times in the New Testament . They made Christianity a failed millenarian movement. The early Church and the main protestant sects understood that and quietly changed the time for the second coming to some vague indeterminate time in the future and dropped it .

Did Jesus lie? Well, there's no question that the Jesus of the Gospels said things which were untrue .I have no way of knowing if the claims and promises were bare face lies. But I have a problem there. I'm not convinced the Jesus of the gospels ever existed.

I think the new testament (and sacred books generally) is almost certainly myth.IE made up. I find it hard to understand why people writing after the events would deliberately lie. Especially if such lies would show The Way/christianity in a bad light-----Personal power? OR did the authors of the gospels believe they were writing history as told to them?

According to Bart Ehrman in "Misquoting Jesus" There is no way of knowing what Jesus may have said. There are literally thousands of mistakes omissions to the books which are included in the Christian canon.

George Carlin, an ex-catholic ,characterised christianity as being full of. "Exaggerated claims and false promises".I think accurate and pretty mild for George.

Lies today? OF COURSE. When one thinks of the words priest /pastor/ clergy , the word ;'mendacity' springs to mind unbidden.

Are believers all lairs? Not willing to make a jump to that generality, impossible to prove. However, it is my opinion that to truly believe the humbug, an average person of average of intellect would need to be suffering from cognitive dissonance and confirmation bias.This is never more evident when dealing with the literalist evangelical nitwits here.

Do I care? Only in an academic sense.As part of my real world, there's not a lot I can do about religion ,although there are many things I would change if I could . I have no wish to abolish religion, lest it be replace with something worse.

Finally, unable to accept the claims you have made for the reasons I have mentioned,. Best I can do is to accept the proposition that you may well be right.

Cognostic's picture
@Cranky: I don't think I

@Cranky: I don't think I necessarily made the jump to "believers are liars" as I think we both agree, lie or myth, they have bought into the stories and simply repeat them without checking facts. I don't think I am right as much as we are basically saying the same thing. I would; however, call it a lie when one is confronted with facts and evidence for the fallacious elements of a claim and yet they insist the claim to be true. It's just dishonest IMO. To be honest the argument must be changed and a new approach sought or simply admitted to be wrong and an new argument presented. Too often we see the heel dragging and the ultimate "You have to have Faith" garbage. "Lie" is certainly a loaded word and I fully understand the point you have made.

Whitefire13's picture
Ohhhh Davi...Davi - come out

Ohhhh Davi...Davi - come out of your cubbie-hole hiding behind your lie...

God sends a lying spirit (1 Kings 22:22) - “And the Lord said to him, ‘How?’ And he said, ‘I will go out and be a deceiving spirit in the mouth of all his prophets.’ Then He said, ‘You are to entice him and also prevail. Go and do so.'"

Your “spirit” is that of a lie, so what makes it holy?

Cognostic's picture
In all I wrote..... I was

In all I wrote..... I was looking for that quote. Could not find it! Good Job/

Whitefire13's picture
Davi got no time?!?! Grocery

Davi got no time?!?! Grocery shopping, hunting down TP (I have faith I’ll find some :). Still checking in for your answer...

Edited to add: home. No TP

LogicFTW's picture

Wonder what Davi's god idea thinks of him answering the question "what is your religious view" with:

I am an atheist. All just to post unevidenced garbage, that will obviously change no ones mind, in a place that asks to not have such posts placed there.

Also on the no TP thing. Go to the largest store you can reasonably find, 30 minutes before they open for the day. Wait in your car, (don't line up, and if the line is long try a different store the next day.) Then as soon as you see the store open, go straight to the TP aisle. If you can, very politely and nicely ask one of the managers when they expect to get more TP in if the store is out. The goal is you are there as fast as possible after the shelves get stocked with what ever TP they have gotten in their overnight delivery.

Also quite a few restaurants, at least for a while, were offing free tp rolls for ordering over a certain dollar amount. It won't get you a months supply but at least you will have enough TP to keep trying for a few days. TP shortage has been improving almost everywhere, keep at it, TP will get easier and easier to get ahold of. As people that already have months supply will stop buying and production shifts from commercial to private use as much as possible.

algebe's picture


If you can't find TP in the shops, you may find what you seek in the Bible.

Whitefire13's picture
Thanks Logic!

Thanks Logic!

Gave my boys squirt bottles!!!! My hoard is in the bedroom and I’m NOT sharing ;)

Tin-Man's picture


Obviously, Davi was lying because The Lord told him to do so. And if The Lord commands you, then it is perfectly justified and okay. Duh! How could you not know that?

Whitefire13's picture
Yah... just curious what

Yah... just curious what “LORD” - Lord Satan, the “father of the lie”?

And if Satan is the “father” did he invent it? And if so, does that mean he created something that god didn’t? And if god uses it, does that mean Satan was right in inventing this?

Tin-Man's picture
@Whitefire Re: "Lord Satan"

@Whitefire Re: "Lord Satan"

Satan?... Lies?... When has Satan ever lied?... *scratching head*.... God, on the other hand..... *shrugging shoulders*...

Besides, unless I'm mistaken, God created Satan. Meaning that anything and everything Satan might do is God's responsibility. Funny how most Christians prefer not to acknowledge that.

Whitefire13's picture
John 8:44 You belong to your

John 8:44 You belong to your father, the devil, and you want to carry out your father's desires. He was a murderer from the beginning, not holding to the truth, for there is no truth in him. When he lies, he speaks his native language, for he is a liar and the father of lies.

Your right Tin - gotta give closer consideration to my source material.

boomer47's picture


"And if Satan is the “father” did he invent it? And if so, does that mean he created something that god didn’t? And if god uses it, does that mean Satan was right in inventing this?"

Islam is more practical and far more honest.

The Quran is replete with passages giving Muslims permission to lie and even advising when it is mandatory to lie.

The traditional Christian teaching is to always tell the truth, even at the cost of one's life.,

There is a pithy Australian response to such an admonition : "What a load of hot cock", Humbug if you will.


Quran (16:106) - Establishes that there are circumstances that can "compel" a Muslim to tell a lie.
Quran (3:28) - This verse tells Muslims not to take those outside the faith as friends, unless it is to "guard themselves" against danger, meaning that there are times when a Muslim may appear friendly to non-Muslims, even though they should not feel friendly.

Quran (9:3) - "...Allah and His Messenger are free from liability to the idolaters..." The dissolution of oaths is with pagans who remained at Mecca following its capture. They did nothing wrong, but were evicted anyway. (The next verse refers only to those who have a personal agreement with Muhammad as individuals - see Ibn Kathir vol 4, p 49)

Quran (66:2) - "Allah has already ordained for you the dissolution of your oaths..." The circumstances for the reader today are not specified, leaving this verse open to interpretation. According to Yusuf Ali in his commentary: "if your vows prevent you from doing good, or acting rightly, or making peace between persons, you should expiate the vow." Presumably, whatever advances the cause of Islam would qualify as ' doing good'.

Quran (40:28) - A man is introduced as a believer, but one who had to "hide his faith" among those who are not believers.

Quran (2:225) - "Allah will not call you to account for thoughtlessness in your oaths, but for the intention in your hearts" (see also 5:89)

Quran (3:54) - "And they (the disbelievers) schemed, and Allah schemed (against them): and Allah is the best of schemers." The Arabic word used here for scheme (or plot) is makara, which means 'cunning,' 'guile' and 'deceit'. If Allah is supremely deceitful toward unbelievers, then there is little basis for denying that Muslims are allowed to do the same. (See also 8:30 and 10:21)

Taken collectively these verses are interpreted to mean that there are circumstances when a Muslim may be "compelled" to deceive others for a greater purpose.
Hadith and Sira
Sahih Bukhari (52:269) - "The Prophet said, 'War is deceit.'" The context of this is thought to be the murder of Usayr ibn Zarim and his thirty unarmed companions by Muhammad's men after they were "guaranteed" safe passage (see Additional Notes below).

Sahih Bukhari (49:857) - "He who makes peace between the people by inventing good information or saying good things, is not a liar." Lying is permitted when the end justifies the means.

Sahih Bukhari (84:64-65) - Speaking from a position of power at the time, Ali confirms that lying is permitted in order to deceive an "enemy." The Quran defines the 'enemy' as "disbelievers" (4:101).

Sahih Muslim (32:6303) - "...he did not hear that exemption was granted in anything what the people speak as lie but in three cases: in battle, for bringing reconciliation amongst persons and the narration of the words of the husband to his wife, and the narration of the words of a wife to her husband (in a twisted form in order to bring reconciliation between them)."

Sahih Bukhari (50:369) - Recounts the murder of a poet, Ka'b bin al-Ashraf, at Muhammad's insistence. The men who volunteered for the assassination used dishonesty to gain Ka'b's trust, pretending that they had turned against Muhammad. This drew the victim out of his fortress, whereupon he was brutally slaughtered.--------there's a lot more.


Calilasseia's picture
I'm merely lamenting that i

I'm merely lamenting that I arrived before his post was deleted. I would almost certainly have enjoyed dismantling whatever canards were lurking therein.

David Killens's picture
@ Calilasseia

@ Calilasseia

IMO he was fodder for any response, it was patently obvious he knew nothing, did not fact-check his manure, and was just repeating the crap he had been fed.

But it would have been entertaining.

Whitefire13's picture
I get sad thinking about the

I get sad thinking about the “fun” we missed out on...makes me want to go to a theist site and lure some over here... ;)

Oh fuck, I just thought of someone I can send a link to... who needs FB friends?!?!

Tin-Man's picture
@Whitefire Re: FB

@Whitefire Re: FB

I don't do no FaceBook... Momma sez... M-m-m-my momma... Momma... my momma sez Fasebuke is da debil!

Italianish's picture
I just want to add.. that I

edit: I realized I wasn’t speaking like
Intended to.. i feel like I was a
Dick, sorry.

boomer47's picture
@ Italianish

@ Italianish

Perfectly Ok to be dick ,dill, drongo or dropkick.

As long a you try not to be a crunt.

Cognostic's picture
Ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ..

Ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ..... I felt like a dick once. It went away.

Tomcolumbus's picture
"I felt like a dick once."

"I felt like a dick once."

You might want to be careful saying this sort of thing on an internet forum with gay guys.

I know enough about straight boys to not take meanings for things completely for granted.

Tin-Man's picture
@Columbus Re: "You might

@Columbus Re: "You might want to be careful saying this sort of thing on an internet forum with gay guys."

No worries, mate. Other than the occasional self-rightous theist that breezes through, nobody I know around here has any problems or phobias with such things.... *chuckle*....

Cognostic's picture
Was that a Gay dispersion?

Was that a Gay dispersion? You might want to check out the rules before labeling people or reading things into comments.

Italianish's picture
Yeah well I remember that I’m

Yeah well I remember that I’m human and
Forgave myself, and I remembered Christians are humans too.. and even if it hurts me personally when I get preached to or receive biblical information that comes off as ultimate truth, at least it’s not a sword to my throat.
I kinda blew up on him, I think I meant to be honest and kind haha but it didn’t work out.

boomer47's picture


"----and I remembered Christians are humans too."

I sometimes wonder whenI run across specimens like George Pell.

I sometimes think David Icke might be right in some instances.

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