I guess psychopaths and rapist aren’t bad, they are just apart of nature. They are just manifestations of nature unfolding and aren’t really accountable for their actions. You can prevent the psychopath to ensure your own survival, but he is in no way wrong just as an earthquake or tsunami isn’t wrong or evil.
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@Jordan: Good Job Jordan. I love it when a Christian is finally honest about the way they think and feel. The whole idea that rapists and psychopaths (The ones that engage in criminal behavior) can be forgiven by your magic Jesus by begging for forgiveness has always irked the fuck out of me. I know you guys don't believe in holding people accountable for their crimes but can you imagine if our courts and legal system operated the way your God operates.
"But judge, I am really really really sorry I raped and murdered 52 women. I have learned my lesson. I now admit I was a sinner and I have let your morality into my heart. "
"Very good my son. Then go free and commit crimes no more."
What a fucking amoral way for a legal / spiritual system to operate. If you really really really say you are sorry, you are forgiven. AND NOT ONLY THAT - the good lord jesus will give you cake and ice cream in heaven. OH PRAISE THE LORD!
As for your belief that tsunamis are also caused by God./ Well we have heard this before as well. After every major disaster on the planet some fringe preacher appears and warns us that we are being punished for one dumb reason or another. God hates fags and that is why San Francisco had an earthquake. The flood in New Orleans what because God hated fags as well. (He just missed the French Quarter.) Tornadoes in Kansas, god creates them to punish the sinful. Yes Yes Yes..... we all know you think this way.
We all know you hold psychopaths irresponsible for their behaviors as long as your jesus forgives them. We all know you believe your God creates natural disasters for good reasons. We all know you think they are not bad and that your God has a plan,
WE JUST DON'T HAPPEN TO SHARE YOUR DUMBFUCK STUPID SHIT BELIEFS. Perhaps you could pray about it and change our minds,.
I’m assuming you intentionally misunderstood my post? If there are only natural causes in the world as atheists like to assume, then psychopaths and rapist are nothing more than natural products of nature and therefor cannot be considered evil or bad.
@Jpordan: I did not misunderstand a damn thing. I responded directly to your post. English 101. It is the writer's responsibility to write clearly. If you don't know or understand what the fuck you are saying, that is not my problem. And why would you get your panties in a wad anyway? All I did was agree with you. Your religious beliefs come from an amoral ass and an amoral system. There is no morality in religion.
Rapists and psychopaths do occur naturally in the world. Some are nurtured that way and others appear to be products of nature. They have always been in our world and that is why we set up legal systems to deal with them and protect the innocent. We have no idea at all, why your god keeps creating them. You would think that an all powerful god who did not want people like that in the world would just stop making them. Anyway. we don't like them so we lock them away and even kill them sometimes. We typically do not "forgive them" and then give them cake and ice cream in heaven. This would be a completely idiotic position to take. Unfortunately, it is the position of religion.
Funny I never remember mentioning God or the Bible.
@cognostic instead of being able to intelligently address the subject matter you result to immature assumptions about the person posting the topic for debate (don’t worry many atheists resort to this type of “debate” tactic) you clearly have no defense since your response is an incoherent mix of illogical arguments and straw man fallacies
Ohhhh the irony...stops it, stops it , it burns, IT BURNS...........
@Jordan: RE: Intelligently addressing the subject matter.
"I guess psychopaths and rapist aren’t bad, they are just apart of nature."
Yes. They are either a part of nature or a result of nurture. Calling them good or bad really misses the point. When they rape or murder we lock them away in jails or kill them. We do something to protect ourselves.
"They are just manifestations of nature unfolding and aren’t really accountable for their actions."
Spoken like a true theist who is idiotic enough to follow the doctrine of divine forgiveness and grace. An amoral system that allows criminals, psychopaths who violate the law, and rapists, to receive rewards in heaven. If our court system operated the same way, these same people would be set free to continue their criminal behavior.
"You can prevent the psychopath to ensure your own survival,"
Yes, unlike the theists who believe they can be forgiven and recieve a reward in heaven, we prevent them from engaging in their harmful behaviors by locking them away and sometimes killing them.
"but he is in no way wrong just as an earthquake or tsunami isn’t wrong or evil."
"HE" Of course he is wrong. THAT'S WHY WE LOCK HIM AWAY. The next time we find a psychopathic rapist we will just give him your address so you can do a bit more investigation into the matter.
"I’m assuming you intentionally misunderstood my post? If there are only natural causes in the world as atheists like to assume, then psychopaths and rapist are nothing more than natural products of nature and therefor cannot be considered evil or bad."
You are very wrong. Their actions definitely fall within the boundaries of what we define as evil and despicable.There is a good reason why laws confine such people to prison for long sentences.
Mother nature is cruel and harsh, but even mentally deranged lower forms of animals have built in checks and balances and the anti-social activities are quickly eliminated.
Anyone who defends such people is part of the problem, not the solution.
@Jordan: I guess psychopaths and rapist aren’t bad
I don't know about that, but I'm pretty sure that Christianity is among the biggest sources of those types of damaged people, including inquisitors, witch-hunters, and exorcists. There's no maniac like a religious maniac.
So I guess rape, torture, and murder are ok as long as Jesus tells you do it.
@algebe your response is beyond illogical and void of any reason, borderline incoherent and completely misses to even partially address the original post. Interestingly I never even mentioned, God, Jesus or the Bible so I’m assuming your inability to properly debate the subject at hand forces you to regurgitate the most irrational of all arguments against a creator.
to say that God or Jesus is responsible for the acts committed by those saying they are acting in the name of God would be like blaming Einstein for all the destruction that has been brought about by the invention of weapons of mass destruction
Jordan: You are so transparent. Your original post was yet another oblique yet obvious attempt to suggest that morality relies on religion. To that, I'd say that religion is itself one of the biggest sources of immorality in the world.
I don't blame god for the actions of his followers, any more than I blame Bugs Bunny for eating the carrots. What's the point in blaming fictional characters for anything. The crimes of religions are entirely the fault of those who propagate and follow those cults.
@algebe You’re making a lot of assumptions about me. I merely stated that psychopaths cannot be considered evil since they are just a product of nature, you either agree or disagree
@Jordan: I merely stated that psychopaths cannot be considered evil since they are just a product of nature
Have you ever heard of this new thing called empathy invented by our primate ancestors? It's a far better guide to right and wrong than any religion. That capacity has continued to evolve, and in its most refined form it even lets us share the suffering of the psychopath driven by twisted urges to commit acts of unspeakable harm. As rational people, we can also accept that such people need to be quarantined until a cure can be found. That's the response of an evolved society.
As befits its Stone Age/Bronze Age origins, religious "morality" is all about crime and punishment.
Lol Empathy was “invented” by your ancestors? And it was passed down? Interesting I was unaware of any scientific proof of this.
And while some of us may have empathy, others do not. And how the majority feels does not dictate what is right or wrong. Sure you can feel bad for a baby being murdered but how can you say it is wrong? Since the natural world is impartial to your suffering and the person doing the murdering is just a profuct of nature. Nature has no right or wrong. It just is! Just like when animals in the wild eat their young, it’s just the circle of life, survival of the fittest.
@Jordan: I was unaware of any scientific proof of this.
Were you? Try Googling empathy and evolution and start to educate yourself. You could even look at the evidence of healed injuries on the bones of Neanderthals and consider what they mean.
@algebe so there is proof we inherit feelings “invented” by our ancestors?? I think not.
Feelings like empathy are not invented.
@Jordan: Feelings like empathy are not invented.
Just a figure of speech, like the "invention" of sexual reproduction.
I'm sure you knew what I meant.
You obviously cannot even be bothered to look up the definition of psychopath before launching your ill considered and ridiculous OP:
a person suffering from chronic mental disorder with abnormal or violent social behaviour.
Note..a mental disorder. They are sick, ill.....like one contracts the flu, psychopathy is an illness. So no, it is not normal and we, well the civilised non nazis among us attempt to cure them, or at least control the symptoms.
However your argument utterly backfires as , if you believe in a "creator or master programmer" then this unfortunate was SELECTED BY THE CREATOR and programmed to commit the acts of violence that characterise this disease. Because it was created by this wonderful creature you imagined, then we should allow the psychopath to fulfil that which his creator has planned for them, never mind the bloodshed and misery.
So, if you don't quite understand here it is in simple words:
Theist "Creator has a plan, therefore disease is good as part of the perfect, designed creation"
Secularist :" Fuck that disease, lets vaccinate, treat, prevent because disease really sucks"
I know where I will be.
Perhaps you should take some lessons in clarity from Calli. Logic is absent from your post.
@ old man shouts...
More shouting from the old man.. only this time he AGREES with me?! The psychopath IS natural just like the flu is natural. Surely you don’t think the flu is evil do you?
Your comprehension ability is only matched by your lucidity.
I never said anything about evil. Once again and for the THIRD time you misrepresent me.
Nor did I say the psychopath is "natural" I said read the definition.
Then read my reply again and try to understand it. Don't ascribe things to my reply that I did not write. That is dishonest.
In your OP you are using words that have no meaning in the context.
Let's look at your use of english: blame
feel or declare that (someone or something) is responsible for a fault or wrong.
"the inquiry blamed the train driver for the accident"
synonyms: hold responsible, hold accountable, hold liable, place/lay the blame on; More
responsibility for a fault or wrong.
If it is natural we cannot "blame" it for its nature is the nub of your argument. Totally the wrong word.
'Psychopath' is a 'disorder' A disorder is a disruption to regular bodily structure and function. This can indeed be unnatural or due to unnatural causes.
What we can do with psychopathic behaviour is correct it, prevent it, ameliorate it. In other words treat it and its root cause.
If we are programmed or created then, according to you, all this is predestined to occur, the fault or disorder is entirely 'natural, i.e created and we, as created beings, therefore have no right to correct it.
Your argument has ended up biting you in the arse.
You should think more before posting, as it is you are making a tremendous dogs breakfast of it,much as I am up for a laugh in the morning Captain Cat is getting grumpy at the continuous chuckling your nonsense posts elicit.
@old man shouts...
My favorite commentator. I admire your tenacity despite your many attempts to formulate any sort of coherent point.
So you believe mental disorder is unnatural. Even though according to theory, we are all derived from natural processes. Just because the psychopath does not adhere to common behavior does not mean his behavior is wrong or needs to be corrected. So please Define unnatural. Do you mean supernatural?
I feel like you want to impress your fellow atheists sooo bad, so please keep practicing your reasoning and debate skills, you might some day come up with an original or at least stimulating conversation
Once again you misrepresent me. You have yet to apologise for any of these lies.
I did not express any belief that any psychosis is "unnatural" in the sense that it is "supernatural". You, once again, introduce a straw man.
"Unnatural in this context (you should look it up) means in a non normal society or perception of "normal" society and it's individual or collective actions can cause psychopathic symptoms in an individual or individuals.
When a human is interacting normally (naturally) within society and abnormal (unnatural in this sense) events or substances cause a stress related psychosis then psychotic symptoms can eventuate, this can result in various diagnoses, if when in "normal society" the individual exhibits one or more symptoms of a classified disorder.
I hope this helps you learn a little about things you attempt to write about.
I think it would greatly help you if you read posts several times as it is obvious by your frequent misrepresentations of fact and content that you do not comprehend them very well. In addition, your patent inability to understand Cali's cogent, intelligent, insightful and researched posts is indicative of a low level education. That is fine, trust me, providing you realise it and take steps to improve your failings.
@old man shouts...
Again (read it slowly if you have to)abnormal Behavior does not equate wrong behavior.
You fail to address why raping or murder is wrong.
Your OP is debunked. Is does not matter how much subsequent trolling you do here. You used a term you did not comprehend to illustrate your question. I have carefully dissected it for you and shewn you to be in error.
This simple fact seems to elude your limited reading skills. Your use of the term "psychopath" which you have demonstrated in every post to me since, you simply do not understand. It rendered your OP a nonsense.
I have not addressed the question of "right or wrong", nor did I ever say "evil" . Before I reply I would like your definition of "right" and "wrong" (You have demonstrated thus far a a cavalier disregard for the use of language) so I can be sure we are on common ground.
Then I can address your question regarding "murder" (a legal term) and rape both a societal and legal term in some jurisdictions. I shall be sure to define these terms before replying to you so you are in no doubt of my response and will find it hard to misrepresent me or my answers.
@old man shouts...
Riddle me this, how exactly does one “illustrate a question”?
Once again you demonstrate your inability to comprehend or use English in a correct manner.
You rather slow mind will, I suspect, take a while to get to the second definition where you will see that my usage of “illustrate a question” was correct.
verb: illustrate; 3rd person present: illustrates; past tense: illustrated; past participle: illustrated; gerund or present participle: illustrating
1.provide (a book, newspaper, etc.) with pictures.
2.serve as an example of.
"the World Cup illustrated what high standards our players must achieve"
synonyms: exemplify, show, demonstrate, display, instance, encapsulate, represent;
Your lack of language skills is hampering your communication greatly. It seems, and probably unintentionally, to make you look very foolish. I suggest a remedial course, or, if English is your second language, then some more practice before you engage these forums. At present it seems to be the standard of a middle school student.
Or I can dumb my replies down for you if that would be more appealing to you? Do let me know.
I am still awaiting the definitions I requested before I answer your "right and wrong" demand....In your own time.....
@Jordan: I fully realize that you may have attended a special school or were possibly home schooled and may have been sleeping the day question marks were covered. When you ask a "qeustion," you need to put a mark like this one... '?' ...at the end of your sentence.
@Jordan: Will you ever learn to make an analogy. "to say that God or Jesus is responsible for the acts committed by those saying they are acting in the name of God would be like blaming Einstein for all the destruction that has been brought about by the invention of weapons of mass destruction."
NO! To say Einstein helped to invent the atomic bomb and so blame him for that is COMPLETELY reasonable.
"But bombs were not what Einstein had in mind when he published this equation. Indeed, he considered himself to be a pacifist. In 1929, he publicly declared that if a war broke out he would "unconditionally refuse to do war service, direct or indirect... regardless of how the cause of the war should be judged." (Ronald Clark, "Einstein: The Life and Times", pg. 428). His position would change in 1933, as the result of Adolf Hitler's ascent to power in Germany. While still promoting peace, Einstein no longer fit his previous self-description of being an "absolute pacifist".Einstein's greatest role in the invention of the atomic bomb was signing a letter to President Franklin Roosevelt urging that the bomb be built. ' ....."Einstein biographer Ronald Clark has observed that the atomic bomb would have been invented without Einstein's letters,..."
http://www.doug-long.com/einstein.htm OOPSEEEE another Jordan fuck up.
Cool but still missing the main point. You can not argue that a psychopath or rapist is bad, only a part of nature
@Jordan: What in the fuck leads you to think that parts of nature are not bad for us? Are you insane?
1. Drinking bleach - BAD
2. Poisonous Snakes - No Problem.
3. Handling Poisonous Snakes in a Religious Service - FUCKING STUPID (BAD).
4. Raping - (BAD)
5. Being born or by virtue of being raised ineffectively resulting in psychopathology (BAD)
6. Joining an atheist website for discussion and entertainment (Good)
7. Just trolling the site and spouting inane bullshit (BAD)