In Honor of Lion IRC

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Calilasseia's picture
I thought the fun and games

I thought the fun and games would start ...

1st
I thought the genetic, inherited camouflage colors used by animals had a direct correlation to the color of the 'sticks' in their environment.

Possibly the lamest piece of apologetics I've seen in some time. Not least because you picked completely the wrong example to try and peddle your apologetics.

Zebra stripes are not "camouflage", they're disruptive colouration, aimed at obfuscating visual cues allowing a predator to pick an individual out from a herd. Indeed, disruptive colouration was pressed into service by several navies, who painted abstract patterns of black and white on warships in World War I, the idea being that the patterns would mislead an enemy with respect to the movement of the ships in question. Indeed, one of the contributors to the idea was a zoologist, John Graham Kerr, who proposed that certain patterns of lines painted on the sides of ships would make visual identification of ships, and proper gun laying, much harder for an enemy.

Oh, and by the way, in case you hadn't noticed this, sticks are linear in form, which means that spotted patterns would have no correlation therewith. On the other hand, of course, spotted patterns are useful in an environment where dappled foliage is being used for concealment, either to hide from a predator or to lay an ambush, but since those sticks in the requisite part of Genesis were stripped of foliage, we can also toss apologetic attempts to press this into service for your mythology into the bin.

But none of this, of course, addresses the underlying assertion, namely, that the authors of your mythology thought they could manipulate an animal's appearance, simply by having the parents shag alongside coloured sticks. The idea that this would magically induce the requisite mutations in the offspring is, of course, manifest nonsense, and was demonstrated to be thus by an Austrian monk and his diligent experiments with peaflowers. Of course, if the sticks in question were fashioned from weapons-grade plutonium, and painted with radium paint, then they would induce a lot of mutations in the offspring in question, but, as the evidence from the Chernobyl incident demonstrates starkly, a good number of those mutations would be so monstrously teratogenic in effect, that the authors of your mythology wouldn't have been talking about coat changes, but instead assorted farm animals born with weird numbers of limbs.

Though of course, it wouldn't be difficult to arrange an experiment to illustrate the requisite point. Pay a farmer enough, and he'd quite happily let his livestock get frisky in a paddock into which you had introduced various coloured sticks, and we could very easily, via such means, demonstrate, along with suitable controls, that this idea is a non-starter.

Plus, if the cornucopia of wildly varying coat colours had not appeared in those animals beforehand, this immediately tells anyone who paid attention in a biology class, that said colour schemes would be the product of recessive mutations, and would, as a corollary, be expected to appear in well-defined ratios, depending on the nature of the recessive genes responsible. A variation arising from a single recessive gene would be expected to appear in a quarter of the offspring, one arising from two recessive mutations would be expected to appear in 1/16th of the offspring, and so on.

Issues become more complex when dealing with polygenes, of course, as one of my past fellow entomologists discovered when investigating the genetics of Papilio dardanus butterfly wing patterns (a topic I've covered in great detail, via numerous scientific papers, elsewhere), but the idea that the entire population of offspring would break out in these weird colour schemes is another non-starter. Indeed, one of the findings of that research, is that crossing populations randomly has a habit of disrupting the well-defined patterns seen in those populations, resulting in a host of unusual intermediate forms, and the idea that a whole collection of ordered patterns would emerge from random crossings in a polygene setting is again a non-starter.

Meanwhile, it's time to deal with this ...

2nd
I dont think the bible states how many people saw the ghosts/zombies/dead persons raised at Matthew 27:53. But your argument from silence is the sort of logical fallacy you would never let me get away with.

Ahem, what part of "what is asserted to have taken place here, is an observable phenomenon on a large scale" do you not understand? The requisite passage doesn't assert that the odd one or two corpses became self-animated in some remote location, which of course makes one wonder about the sort of coincidence that would have been involved, for the writer of this to have been conveniently present at the requisite location. Instead, the passage clearly asserts that a large number of animated corpses were purportedly involved, and were purportedly observed by a large number of people. The idea that none of the people in question would be members of the occupying Roman forces, if this had happened, is again a non-starter. Furthermore, given as I've already stated, that the Romans had established a track record of diligent historical recording, covering even mundane events, the idea that they would have failed to report an event as spectacular as this, is again another non-starter.

It's not as if we're lacking precedents for this: the eruption of Vesuvius in 79 CE certainly counts as a spectacular event, one that would have been observable from up to 20 miles or more away as the tephra cloud rose above the caldera to the stratosphere, and the Romans paid the requisite diligent attention to recording that eruption and its aftermath, which included the death of Pliny the Elder while attempting to rescue friends from the eruption. On this basis, noting their failure to record a spectacular event of this sort isn't a "fallacy of silence", but rather, an apposite pointer to the likely falsity of the mythological assertion in question, the falsity of which, upon being even hinted at by Michael Licona, led to him being subject to a torrent of abuse by inerrantists.

Of course, the whole "inerrant" assertion about this mythology, involves so much in the way of sophistical elisions and convoluted apologetic gymnastics on the part of adherents thereto, that this alone suggests strongly that we're dealing with yet more wishful thinking on a grand scale, with attempts to conjure said wishful thinking into life via fatuous apologetic spells, even before we point to assertions contained within said mythology that are demonstrably not merely wrong, but absurd and inane to a comic degree. But the falsity of the requisite assertions certainly helps, at least among those of us who paid attention in classes on proper discourse.

Lion IRC's picture
Typical Cali. Using 500 words

Typical Cali. Using 500 words to justify this;
"Zebra stripes are not "camouflage", they're... [wait for it]
disruptive colouration."

Scholarly articles
"Natural selection shapes the evolution of anti-predator defences, such as camouflage"
"Disruptive coloration provides camouflage"

Jacobs herd of striped animals grew while the uncamouflaged flock suffered worse predation.

As for Mike Licona, he isnt the topic being discussed here.

We are discussing whether the Romans reported everything that OTHER people claimed they saw.

Is it likely that they would want to corroborate what the Christian bible reported? How come the Roman soldiers didn't faithfully report all of Jesus' miracles - irrespective of what Caesar thought other contenders for the title King of Kings?

For all you know, Roman soldiers who witnessed the risen bodies of dead saints converted to Christianity themselves. Would you take their word for it if they claimed exactly what the bible reports?

Old man shouts at clouds's picture
@ Lyer

@ Lyer

We are discussing whether the Romans reported everything that OTHER people claimed they saw.
Is it likely that they would want to corroborate what the Christian bible reported? How come the Roman soldiers didn't faithfully report all of Jesus' miracles - irrespective of what Caesar thought other contenders for the title King of Kings?

Oh ROFLMAO....what planet are you diddling? Fucks sake...there was no "Christian Bible" in 33CE. Any christians were all JEWS...even if they existed as followers of a minor seditionist you twat.

How come the Romans didn't report all jesus miracles...well that IS a conundrum..let me think...AH! .maybe oh, I don't know, because they never fucking happened?
Have you totally lost the plot?

For all you know, Roman soldiers who witnessed the risen bodies of dead saints converted to Christianity themselves. Would you take their word for it if they claimed exactly what the bible reports?

First they would not "convert to christianity" because christianity did not exist at that point. They might have converted to judaism...on the other hand they didn't much like self inflicted bodily mutilation in the Roman Army so unlikely they would have.
Secondly NOT ONE ROMAN OR ANYONE ELSE reported it at the time of the alleged fantastical event.

The ONLY report of this alleged event is some 70 years later in a rag bag of made up stories......some evidence.

You might as well ask why the Police haven't patrolled Diagon Alley recently. Geez you are running round the top paddock naked today aint ya maaate.

But you go on, dream your little dreams...why are we surrounded by Muppets this week?

Lion IRC's picture
I don't claim that there was

I don't claim that there was a Christian bible in 33 CE.

I am explaining why Roman soldiers obedient to a brutal dictatorial regime didn't immediately go running to their commanders to 'out themselves' as eye witnesses of events the same as those reported in the Christian bible.

And why, after having done so, any soldier foolish enough to corroborate the events in the Gospel, probably wasn't escorted straight to Rome to have their account faithfully recorded for the sake of posterity. Hail Caesar!

More likely than not, they would have been summarily executed and all their fellow soldiers asked..."anyone else here who thinks they hallucinated a Jesus-related supernatural event?

Meanwhile, in other news...,
Kim Jong Ill announces an amnesty for dissidents who might have damaging info about his leadership.
Russia declares Alexander Litvinenko's death an accident.
Jeffrey Epstein's death ruled a suicide.
Hitler's Generals agree he was sometimes a bit cranky and unapproachable.

Old man shouts at clouds's picture
@ Lying

@ Lying

Look at your post. Yes you really did claim there was a christian "bible in 33CE" I quote: Is it likely that they would want to corroborate what the Christian bible reported?
Oh lol you are getting to be the most ridiculous spectacle on this site...

Although the discipline in the legions was fierce by today's you do not get the loyalty of 250,000 plus regular troops and twice that number of Auxillaries by being "a brutal dictatorial regime" . You should really do some reading before attempting to take on these forums.

More likely than not, they would have been summarily executed and all their fellow soldiers asked..."anyone else here who thinks they hallucinated a Jesus-related supernatural event?

Why would that be? Even if the jesus figure existed (doubtful) he was just another rebellious smelly jew put to death for the crimes of treason and sedition....But wholesale preaching by zombies (as described by Matthew) with tombs breaking open would certainly have been reported by Military Commanders, Philo (who was in Jerusalem at the time) and many others. The chances therefore of this being a real event is zero. Utterly improbable. Anyone arguing that it is a literal historical event really should get their meds adjusted.

Meanwhile, in other news...,

Pope announces Papal infallibility proclaimed by Pius IX in 1870
Cayetano Ripoll Valencia, 26 July 1826 was a schoolmaster in Valencia, Spain, who was executed for teaching deist principles
Reichskonkordat is a treaty negotiated between the Vatican and the emergent Nazi Germany. It was signed on 20 July 1933
2019 Cardinal George Pell has been sentenced to six years' jail for sexually abusing two choirboys

Dont be more of a Muppet than you have to be.

Edit to insert original silly quote, wouldnt want anything changed after the event would we?

David Killens's picture
@ Calilasseia

@ Calilasseia

"If I encountered a falsehood in the bible I would abandon the bible."

This was pointed out by another atheist, but Lion IRC is playing Clintonese (I did not have sex with that woman) word games. Note the use of the singular "a" instead of the plural "any". Thus Lion IRC was honest in it's standards but questionable in forming an honest reply, because if Lion IRC was aware of two or more inconsistencies, it is no long just "a".

Lion IRC's picture
If I encountered any

If I encountered any falsehood in the bible I would abandon the bible.

You can quote me on that too if you like.

What now?

David Killens's picture
@ Lion IRC Thank you.

@ Lion IRC

Thank you.

Tin-Man's picture
@Lyin'-His-Ass-Off Re: "If I

@Lyin'-His-Ass-Off Re: "If I encountered any falsehood in the bible I would abandon the bible."

Ahhhh... Finally. Thank you for clarifying that for us. Now we KNOW you are full of shit. Phew! It is such a relief to have that nagging doubt taken away. I was almost starting to wonder if I might be wrong about you. Thank you so much for confirming my instincts are still functioning properly.

(And you bitch, moan, whimper, and throw tantrums about people not treating you with respect?...... Wow.... Just.... wow.... *chuckle*...)

Lion IRC's picture
I don't expect you to adhere

It's Atheist Republic which says what visitors should expect when they come here - not me.

I don't expect you to adhere to the lofty sentiments expressed in the banner at the top of the forum page, about respectful exchanges of differing views.

Old man shouts at clouds's picture
@ Lyin

@ Lyin

Lots of people come here and have very respectful exchanges. I have had great debates with many who are prepared to listen and accept when they are in error...as I am.

But you, pussy, started off with sly attempts to change the intent and meanings of posts. Refuse to accept the impossibility of some of the bible mythos, handwave away and attempt to minimise the Catholic Churches involvement as the greatest pedohpile ring the world has known.

Then you moan and wring your hands about respect?

You are not even laughable, just a sorry wreck of a human.

Old man shouts at clouds's picture
@ Lenny

@ Lenny

The difference between you and me Lenny is that you have presuppositions that you constantly try to prove or evidence by apologetics. I have a blank canvas, I try to see the historical fact using the historical method and process of elimination. I LIKE being wrong when someone produces incontrovertible evidence that contradicts my opinion...why? Because it means I am learning, Something you have forgotten to do, instead you you try and prove impossible fiction by apologetics.

Now go away until you have some reality checks.

Whitefire13's picture
@Cali...” the whole "global

@Cali...” the whole "global flood" fantasy”

NOoooooo don’t go there!!!!! NOoooooo....

ilovechloe's picture
Well I must say that I am

Well I must say that I am very disappointed by @Lion IRC. I was hoping for some meaty debating material that we could all sink our teeth into with some real evidence presented as to why we should believe the bible. But he is playing directly from the christian apologist's playbook.

@Lion IRC, your arguments only work with people who don't know anything about the history of the bible, which is why they work so well with christians. If you want to convince atheists & sceptics, then you need to present some REAL evidence, not just claims. If you think that Mark, Mathew Luke & john were the actual authors of the gospels, then show some evidence that the earliest surviving manuscripts had their names on them. if you think that the gospels were written by eyewitnesses, then show some actual evidence that this was actually the case.

@ Lion IRC I suggest that you do some proper research on your bible, & stop just listening to & reading all the church propaganda & listening to christian apologists about it. You won't come to the truth if all you listen to are liars!

That is, if you are actually interested in knowing the truth. Most christians arent. I know christians who will stick their fingers in their ears if they hear ANYTHING that goes against their beliefs!

Lion IRC's picture
I'm waiting for you to show

I'm waiting for you to show me a link to the (Old Man Shout...) post that you claim I never answered. I said I would answer. And I will.

Just back up your accusation by giving me (and everyone else) the link so I can "sink my teeth" into it. Do you agree that you haven't actually explained what it is that you specifically want me to address?

I explained to you that you cited the wrong post number. The post number you mentioned wasn't even made by Old Man Shouts.

Stop blathering on about how I need to listen and learn and be open to the "real' truth about the bible which, obviously, only an atheist can teach.

If you don't think John the evangelist wrote the Gospel that bears his name, just give me the name of the person who DID.

If you don't think it was a physician named Luke who wrote the Gospel according to "Luke" all you have to do is give me another name. Who??? Who wrote the Gospels. Tell me. Then I can consider whether or not they were potential eye witnesses.

Tin-Man's picture
@ILC Re: Lion response to

@ILC Re: Lion response to you - "Just back up your accusation by giving me (and everyone else) the link so I can "sink my teeth" into it."

Uh, in case you have not figured it out yet, when Lion says he will "sink his teeth into it", what he really means is that he will take out those plastic Halloween fangs of his and then gum it to death and drool all over it until it is such a soggy mess that nobody even wants to touch it anymore. Then he will go dig a hole in the backyard, drop it in the hole, cover it up, piss on it, and stroll away with his head held high with pride for "winning" the discussion. Just figured you might want a heads-up on that.

Oh, by the way, if I have not told you yet, Welcome to the AR. Great having you with us. I know you have been here a bit already, but sometimes I forget my manners. Mea culpa.

ilovechloe's picture
Thanks for the welcome Tin

@ Tin-Man

Thanks for the welcome Tin Man.

While I have your attention, wheres the $200 you were going to send me so I can print the pamphlets for the 'church of the great cockroach in the sky' ?

Tin-Man's picture
@ILC Re: "...wheres the $200

@ILC Re: "...wheres the $200 you were going to send me so I can print the pamphlets for the 'church of the great cockroach in the sky' ?"

Oh, wow... Gee... Uh, you haven't gotten that yet?... *rubbing back of neck*... Ummm... I swear I put that check in the mail... *nervously shuffling from foot to foot*... Yeah, uh, really, I don't know what could have happened to it. When I never heard from you I just, uh, you know, figured you had gotten it and was having the pamphlets printed. Gosh, I wonder wha-.... *sudden silence*... *staring blankly as if in trance*... *snapping fingers*.... Ah-ha! Of course! Mystery solved! I just had a vision from The Great Cockroach, and He revealed to me the reason you did not receive the check! Yes! These are glorious days, brother! The Great Cockroach in His infinite wisdom has a PLAN! And it is (somewhat reasonably) a PERFECT plan! He told me the pamphlets were not the way to spread His Word. He revealed to me an image of a brilliant monument to be constructed in His holy image. Therefore, YOU must send ME $400 to help get the project started and show your FAITH as a shining example what it means to be a TRUE Cockroachiest! (Money order or cashier check only, please.)

Old man shouts at clouds's picture
@ Lying

@ Lying

If you don't think John the evangelist wrote the Gospel that bears his name, just give me the name of the person who DID.

Is the name important? It is certain that the gospel attributed (by tradition only) to "John" was written about 110 to 250CE by multiple authors. That is easily searchable online for you to do your own research.

Try reading: "The Fourth Gospel: Tales of a Jewish Mystic.”

ALL THE GOSPELS ARE ANONYMOUS.

You do not need another name. Don't be a child.

In case you missed Nyar's post from the Catholic Encyclopedia here is an amplified version: The first four historical books of the New Testament are supplied with titles (Euangelion kata Matthaion, Euangelion kata Markon, etc.), which, however ancient, do not go back to the respective authors of those sacred writings. The Canon of Muratori, Clement of Alexandria, and St. Irenæus bear distinct witness to the existence of those headings in the latter part of the second century of our era. Indeed, the manner in which Clement (Stromata I.21), and St. Irenæus (Against Heresies III.11.7) employ them implies that, at that early date, our present titles to the Gospels had been in current use for some considerable time. Hence, it may be inferred that they were prefixed to the evangelical narratives as early as the first part of that same century. That, however, they do not go back to the first century of the Christian era, or at least that they are not original, is a position generally held at the present day. It is felt that since they are similar for the four Gospels, although the same Gospels were composed at some interval from each other, those titles were not framed, and consequently not prefixed to each individual narrative, before the collection of the four Gospels was actually made. Besides, as well pointed out by Prof. Bacon, "the historical books of the New Testament differ from its apocalyptic and epistolary literature, as those of the Old Testament differ from its prophecy, in being invariably anonymous, and for the same reason. Prophecies whether in the earlier or in the later sense, and letters, to have authority, must be referable to some individual; the greater his name, the better. But history was regarded as a common possession. Its facts spoke for themselves. Only as the springs of common recollection began to dwindle, and marked differences to appear between the well-informed and accurate Gospels and the untrustworthy . . . did it become worth while for the Christian teacher or apologist to specify whether the given representation of the current tradition was 'according to' this or that special compiler, and to state his qualifications". It thus appears that the present titles of the Gospels are not traceable to the Evangelists themselves.http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/06655b.htm

I won't hold my breath waiting for your apology...Muppet.

Lion IRC's picture
For what would I owe you an

For what would I owe you an apology?

Go back and read what I said. I did not claim the bible was in print in 33 CE.
I said the Roman soldiers would not in any way want to officially report anything that corroborated the events reported in the Gospel.

THATS why we don't have contemporary, Roman Government approved, historical accounts of supernatural/divine acts associated with Jesus of Nazareth. Neither do we have much in the way of pro-Zionist literature written by anyone who earned their living working for the Nazis.

Now, you have clearly missed my posts explaining that just because we have a bible document estimated to have been written in 70 AD does NOT mean that is the very first instance of a pen to paper telling of that event. It is certainly not evidence that 70 AD was the first time anyone every heard of the event itself.

Old man shouts at clouds's picture
@ Lyin

@ Lyin

Now you are lying...I quoted your exact words back to you. Read back to yourself slowly. Here they are again:
We are discussing whether the Romans reported everything that OTHER people claimed they saw.
Is it likely that they would want to corroborate what the Christian bible reported? How come the Roman soldiers didn't faithfully report all of Jesus' miracles - irrespective of what Caesar thought other contenders for the title King of Kings?

I said the Roman soldiers would not in any way want to officially report anything that corroborated the events reported in the Gospel..( Actually that was your second paragraph.) But I am getting used to your continual mendacity.

Or the simpler explanation...NO ONE reported those events, not Roman Soldiers, not Jewish historians, not itinerant traders, NO ONE , not even the other gospel writers. Why? Because they did not happen.
There is not one recorded instance of graves being opened and the long dead coming back to life in human HISTORY. Legend and myth, yes...but historically accurate accounts and facts? Not one

Now, you have clearly missed my posts explaining that just because we have a bible document estimated to have been written in 70 AD does NOT mean that is the very first instance of a pen to paper telling of that event. It is certainly not evidence that 70 AD was the first time anyone every heard of the event itself.

Have you any idea why the gospel of Mark COULD NOT have been written before 65 - 70 CE? Or is that to be handwaved away along with the weight of all the modern scholarship?

Even now the preponderance of scholars maintaining that Mark is a very heavily edited and embellished story based on the writings of Paul has grown with the theoretical existence of a document"Q" all but completely discounted?

Repeat. WE KNOW:
Mark was the fist of the gospels. Dated to 65 - 70CE. The author is anonymous but certainly not the "Mark the evangelist" that second century church fathers ascribed authorship to in a search for authority.

We Know Matthew contains 600 verses copied directly from Mark.. It is also anonymous but does not predate Mark (obviously) Matthew corrects Mark on Jewish Law and practise.

We Know Luke is more that 50% copied from Mark, the same errors in Jewish Law and practise are in Luke.

We KNOW that early copies of Luke and Matthew did not contain the birth narrative and probably other details added later to please hellenes. .

Please stop this, even for a theist you are making yourself look foolish.

(Edit: Actual quote added)

ilovechloe's picture
@ Lion IRC

@ Lion IRC

The post no. I gave you was correct at the time I posted it. What I did not realise was that the post no's do not stay the same. They get changed when somebody replies to somebodies elses post. I couldn't be bothered going back & finding it now. What exactly is it I accused you of by the way? I did accuse you of not providing any evidence about any of your arguments, & you havent.

It is not up to me to tell YOU who wrote the gospel of luke, or john, or any of the other gospels, because I have no idea who the author's were, & neither does anybody else. It is up to you, as the person making the claim that it was written by luke, to provide the evidence that it actually was written by some guy called luke.

Where in the gospel of luke, does it say that the person writing it is luke? Where is the signed gospel manuscript, that ends with 'authored by luke'? Where is the witness statement, that says "I saw luke write the gospel of luke"? The same goes for the other gospels. Since it is YOU are making the claim that the gospels were authored by Mark, Mathew, Luke & John, then provide the evidence for it, or shut up, & stop making stupid claims that you cannot provide any evidence for.

It is quite obvious that you have no clue about the history of the bible, or you would not be making the stupid claims that you are. It may be church tradition that the gospels were authored by Mark, Mathew, Luke or John, however it certainly isn't factual!

Many atheists start out as theists just like yourself. And then some of them actually decide to study the bible in detail, & learn about its history, & that is how they end up as atheists!

You too can free yourself from religion, but only if you dare! As Seth Andrews once said 'christianity made me talk like an idiot'. The problem is, while you remain a christian, you never realise just how idiotic your position is, until you dare to discover the truth (or lack of it) about your religion!

Lion IRC's picture
So you haven't even got the

So you haven't even got the intellectual honesty or fortitude to actually go back and find the specific post/subject which you accused me of deliberately avoiding.
What was that phrase you used..."how convenient".

You don't have provide the identity of the Gospel writers. You can just continue (or begin to) admit that you don't know who wrote the Gospels and, therefore, you don't know FOR A FACT that they weren't witnesses to any of the events they report. That would be the intellectually honest thing to do.

Old man shouts at clouds's picture
@ Lyin garbage

@ Lyin garbage

We have been over you solipsistic fucking hooballoo before.

The Gospels, ALL OF THEM ARE ANONYMOUS. END OF STORY

you don't know FOR A FACT that they weren't witnesses to any of the events they report. That would be the intellectually honest thing to do.
It doesn't matter a blue fuck who wrote them when much of the content is provable as a complete nonsense. They were not written before 70CE and therefore cannot be "eye witness accounts" Shit, how many times DO I HAVE TO REPEAT MYSELF?
How many citations of this obvious and simple accepted fact must you read before you admit you are WRONG?

Are you really hard of reading? See several previous replies where I was polite at your continuing fucking stupidity.

Sheesh.

Lion IRC's picture
Repeating your claim over and

Repeating your claim over and over again isn't an argument.
Ad nauseum - yes. Argument - no.

I don't know why you think your shouty tantrum posting style is going to be persuasive - if anything it just makes you look desperate.

Now, you've obviously run out of ammo. And you haven't sufficiently responded to the problem of your own lack of knowledge about the identity of the real people who wrote the Gospels. You don't know that they weren't eye witnesses and you are blatantly presuming that the dating estimate of one document proves the absolute non-existence of any earlier iteration of that same account.

And finally, your 'Jesus myther' conspiracy theory mindset absolutely disqualifies you from appealing to biblical historical scholarship - because the scholars you appeal to about the (uncontroversial) age estimates of Gospel manuscripts are the very same people who accept the historicity of Jesus as a fact.

Old man shouts at clouds's picture
@ Lion

@ Lion

because the scholars you appeal to about the (uncontroversial) age estimates of Gospel manuscripts are the very same people who accept the historicity of Jesus as a fact.

And once again you conveniently handwave away the FACT that Erhmann and others accept the probability (unevidenced historicity) of a HUMAN jesus as the basis for the tales of the gospels. Do you see the difference?

Not the historicity of the magical zombie jesus you worship as a part of a three headed god.

Is that through your muddled thinking yet?

My position had been clearly stated yet you persist in misrepresenting it for your own ends.

There is no contemporary (to his life) evidence for the existence of the jesus figure as described in the gospels. None.

That there may be a HUMAN jesus figure that is the basis for such texts is NOT PROVEN.

The rest of your addled post is just your attempt to rebuild a wall of denial. Even your own church as we have demonstrated admits the gospels are anonymous.We do not need to know who wrote them to prove many of the events baseless and embellishments to hearsay.

Repeating your claim over and over again isn't an argument.
Ad nauseum - yes. Argument - no

Exactly my point. Which I have made several times in your increasingly tiresome, repetitive posts.
I have evidenced every assertion I have made. You have just made EMPTY claims.

ilovechloe's picture
@ Lion IRC

@ Lion IRC

No, I just couldnt be bothered, because you will give the same B/S answer you give to every other post, & provide absolutely no evidence to what you are claiming, so I am not going to learn anything new from you. There are a no. of previous posts you havent replied to, including some from myself. Why dont you go back yourself, & find all the posts you havent replied to, & reply to them.

Yes, I have already said that I dont know the identity of ANY of the gospel writers, & neither does any other person on the planet, which includes yourself. I am just being honest about it, while you are taking the traditional christian apologist approach, which is to lie through the teeth about things you dont know, & PRETEND that you do know.

This approach works with the average person in the street, who knows absolutely nothing about bible history, but it wont work with the average person on this forum, who are more informed than yourself & the average christian, most whom has never bothered to read the book, that is apparently the word of their god. I find it rather odd that the average christian isnt even interested in reading what their 'god' has apparently inspired in the book they claim to believe in!

As for the gospel authors being witnesses, again where is the EVIDENCE that any of the authors are witnesses to any of the events in the gospels? I keep asking you for evidence, ANY evidence that what you are purporting to know has any truth at all, & yet you have never attempted to provide ANY evidence at all for your assertions, & you simply keep trying to shift the burden of proof onto myself, because you know that you cannot provide any evidence for ANY of the claims that you keep making..

Show me WHERE in the text of ANY of the gospels that the aiuthor says that they personally witnessed ANY of the events that has been written about? While somebody making the claim that they were an eye witness is not actual evidence that they actually DID see any of the events they claimed to have, at least it would be SOMETHING? But if you have no evidence that any of the gospel writers were eye witnesses, & none of the authors even CLAIM they were eye witnesses, exactly WHAT information are you basing your claim that they WERE eye witnesses?

The only Gospel where it is claimed that the writer was an eye witness, is the ending of the gospel of john at 21:24, however the ending of the earliest gospel of john ended at john 20:31, so the original writer of this gospel, NEVER makes the claim that he was an eye witness to any of the events, & it is only a later forgery by a later writer that makes the claim, which would have been well after the lifespan of any of the original 'disciples' if they even existed at all.

The gospels are also not written in the style of eye witness accounts.

Lion IRC's picture
You - why didn't you respond

You - why didn't you respond to [unknown post]
Me - Could you please give me a link to post you want me to respond to.
You - No, I couldn't be bothered and it wouldn't matter how you reply anyway because you're a #@%$!&

That's just disingenuous intellectual dishonesty writ large.

My assertion is that your lack of information about the identity of the Gospel writers disqualifies you from claiming certain knowledge that they themselves were not eye witnesses to anything they report.

Old man shouts at clouds's picture
@ Lion

@ Lion

My assertion is that your lack of information about the identity of the Gospel writers disqualifies you from claiming certain knowledge that they themselves were not eye witnesses to anything they report.

Your assertion is utter bunkum. A non sequitur as has been demonstrated several times on these threads.
For you to keep asserting this nonsense is getting very close to classic trolling.

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