How can theists defend their morality?

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arakish's picture
David: "Do you think it is

David: "Do you think it is morally correct to own another human being? Can I buy your daughter?"

No. But you can rape her while she is still virgin, pay Ain'tHumble $200 (modern equivalent to 50 shekels of silver), and have a young wife to take care of you as you get older. Deuteronomy 22:28-29.


arakish's picture
Ain'tHumble: "I do think your

Ain'tHumble: "I do think your approach to morality falls short of the truth though."

Mine don't. Yours does by your own admittance.

Ain'tHumble: "On the surface, it seems like all we are struggling for is the "reward" or to avoid the "punishment." "

Not me. I don't want any rewards. Never have. Never shall. Thus I ain't got any punishment to fear. Religious Absolutists do, however.


HumbleThinker's picture
*cough* BULLSHIT *cough*

*cough* BULLSHIT *cough*

arakish's picture
That's it. Get a little bit

That's it. Get a little bit more out. You just might clear up that brain diarrhea. Try sneezing. Might help.


algebe's picture
@HumbleThinker: According to

@HumbleThinker: According to Merriam Webster

Well I never thought of Merriam Webster as a guide to morality or philosophy. Dictionaries record the meanings of words for reference. The actual meanings are determined through a complex process of interactions among speakers of the language concerned.

I believe that altruism is definitely a component of morality. Morality is an innate sense of what is good or bad for us, our families, and our society. It evolved with our human intellectual capacity, and is further refined through our experiences in society. Individuals that contribute to the family or the community or valued and respected. They become leaders and are sought after as husbands/wives.

In early human societies, non-contributing individuals would have been driven out or killed. Later in the history of our species, such people founded religions and became priests.

Cognostic's picture

Good dogie, spoken like a true intellectual. Here is a dogie treat now go lie on your mat.

Moral: adj: "concerned with the principles of right and wrong behavior and the goodness or badness of human character."

You can not have a sense of right or wrong, good or bad, when you are following dictates from an all powerful being and seeking rewards or avoiding punishments. Dogs can be trained to do right and wrong with punishment and reward, that does not lead to morality. It leads to blind obedience without any understanding of morals.

"Religion attempts to guide (No Train) its' followers towards what (It) believe is more moral, (Which is why one religion handles snakes and another throws homosexuals off of buildings) based on their interpretation of their holy book. "
And what else does that book say? "Slip up and you burn in hell." "Be hot or cold, don't come to me lukewarm less I spew you from my mouth." "Hate your mother, father, sister, brother, aunts and uncles to be a follower of mine." "Many will come to me in the final day and profess, I have done good works in your name. I will tell them "Get thee hence, I never knew you." The Books and their teachings are bullshit and completely based on reward and punishment. There is no guidance. There is "Do as I say or suffer the pits of hell." (THERE IS TRAINING) A great example of this is the knock knock joke meme. There is nothing false in this meme. It is exactly the message of the Christian/Muslim faiths. It is not the "Surface of the Christian/Muslim faith, but in fact, the very core." I do not believe in this bullshit and I will burn in hell for my non-belief. My morality is not based on moral dictates from a magical being. Even if you are a believer, obedience is required. To violate the religion's moral dictates requires forgiveness / confession and the admission of sins, less you die in the pits of hell for your transgressions.

Knock knock
Whose there
What do you want.
I want to come in.
So I can save you
Save me from what
From what I will do to you if you don't let me in.

"It is a gradual process to change (TRAIN) the heart (MIND) of a human to act in a more moral (RELIGIOUSLY APPROVED manner." (REMEMBER THE CHRISTIANS ARE BOMBING ABORTION CLINICS AND ATTACKING MOSQUES IN NEW ZEALAND) NO! It is a gradual process to 'TRAIN' the human to act in a more moral manner. And this is not done by adherence to the Bible. It is done by adherence to the training of the RELIGION. Anyone living their lives with the morality based on the bible would be locked away. "Take your unruly child to the edge of town and kill him." "A rapist can pay the father a sum of money and marry the woman he has raped." "Slavery is perfectly fine. You can own another human being as property and pass it on to your grandchildren. " Complete and utter nonsense. BELIEVERS are trained not to think, to ignore passages in the bible and to accept moral dictates passed onto them by their Religions. NO THINKING REQUIRED. TRAINING ONLY. NO MORALITY REQUIRED. JUST DO AS YOU ARE TOLD.

If you believe it is objective, then it is worth having a conversation to figure out what is right and what is wrong. THAT MEANS; A SCIENTIFIC INQUIRY INTO WHAT WE ARE CALLING RIGHT AND WRONG.


than a scientific group-think worldview, imo. IT IS NOT POSSIBLE FOR SCIENCE TO HAVE GROUP-THINK. The very nature of the scientific method prohibits it. Any and all assertions must be peer reviewed, repeatable, predictive, and empirically based (measurable.) Science intentionally destroys 'Group-think." There is no such thing as a scientific theory based on group think. On the other hand, that is all religion has going for it.

HumbleThinker's picture


This is so sad. Really. My heart breaks for you.

Cognostic's picture
RE: "This is so sad. My

RE: "This is so sad. My heart breaks for you."

Spoken like a true theist. When all else fails, SHOOT FOR THE EMOTIONAL APPEAL. What a well trained puppy. Gooood booooy!

Sheldon's picture
"I do believe religion gets

"I do believe religion gets closer to the answer than a scientific groupthink worldview, imo."

Based on what exactly? You just admitted theists are as likely to be immoral as atheists.

arakish's picture
@ David

@ David

Next time, just show them this...



Attach Image/Video?: 

HumbleThinker's picture
LOL this thread is a joke.

LOL this thread is a joke. Please let it die and start a new one, if necessary.

Tin-Man's picture
Re: Humble Thinker

Re: Humble Thinker

Wow.... *shaking head in dismay*.... After reading through this thread and a couple of others, I have to say my observations are not painting dear little (Not so)Humble (Pseudo)Thinker in a very pretty light. I have seen several members provide HT with very considerate and intellectually rational information in regards to various topics. Yet, rather than attempt to engage in productive discussion about the information provided, our beloved little HT seems to prefer to resort to petty remarks of glib dismissals and juvenile retorts. Such a shame when an individual comes to our site under the guise of wanting to learn, but then decides the truth is far too uncomfortable and threatening to the point he/she has to become tediously belligerent, insulting, and incredibly closed-minded in a pathetic effort to maintain a clawed grasp on his/her faith to some terribly outdated ancient fairytale. So sad.... *heavy sigh*...

Old man shouts at clouds's picture
@ TM

@ TM

Now ain't that the truth...say it again....I am tired of laying out evidenced historical fact only to be insulted by those who seem to think that reading a fucking book or two or even reading their own fucking holy book would damn them to whatever version of hell they are told exists. Fuck me dead TM...I am so over this clown.

Maybe we should have a critical thinking test on the sign up page...or, second thoughts, maybe not...after all we do have fun don't we?

Sheldon's picture
Sadly critical thinking is

Sadly critical thinking is completely anathema to faith based religious belief. I'd settle for them having passable grammar, and the common courtesy to not preach at me as if we're in a church, and they're in a pulpit.

algebe's picture
@Tin-Man: tediously

@Tin-Man: tediously belligerent, insulting, and incredibly closed-minded

The technical term for that combination of personality traits is "Christian".

Cognostic's picture
My exact observations. He

My exact observations. He has been utterly shut down and now faces a cognitive realignment or flight. I expect he will vanish from the forums or fall back and return with some other form of nonsense from way out in left field.

David Killens's picture


"LOL this thread is a joke. Please let it die and start a new one, if necessary."

Feeling uncomfortable?

I have seen many theists wander into this forum and state that they have morality and atheists do not. And I decided to do the opposite, not place atheists in the position of defending their morality, but instead challenging theists on the subjective versus objective debate.

And so far, theists are uncomfortable on how this issue is approached, and in fact, I see very little theists willing to wade into these waters.

MarylinC's picture
I keep telling people,

I keep telling people, religion is not the arbiter of morals.

Rules are like a river. They have to flow and to evolve as we learn new things and society changes. The rules have to evolve to reflect those changes.

That’s why our parliaments sit most days of the year spending most of their time junking old rules, tinkering with the current rules to make them better and bringing in new ones as necessary.

I’ve been saying for over 20 years, the bible has become a two thousand year old rule book that’s two thousand years out of date and frozen in time. That’s because their made up god is supposed to have dictated it all and they think it’s his words. The net result is you can’t change a single word in their old book.

If you ask most people today what’s the worst crime anyone can commit next to murder most people now are gonna say being a paedophile. You can go through these old books from cover to cover and there is absolutely nowhere where it says ‘Thou shalt not be a paedophile and rape children’.

If their god knows everything then how the heck did he leave that out?

There’s your god morality for you.

Cognostic's picture
@ MarylinC: "what’s the

@ MarylinC: "what’s the worst crime anyone can commit next to murder "

I just had to answer. The worst crime anyone can commit, right next to murder (Actually just above murder on the Godly "How the fuck could you ever do that." drum roll please .............................................
"Blasphemy against the Holy Fucking Ghost." (The Unforgivable Sin) Murder is a twaddle, no one cares about murder. We are, after all. made in the image of a butchering, child killing god. Murder is nothing. It can be forgiven in an instant. And as you pointed out, CHILD RAPE ISN'T EVEN WORTH MENTIONING. Hell. if you sent every Child rapist to Hell, who in the fuck would preach the sermons on Sundays. Get real Girl!!!

MarylinC's picture

@ Cog.


MarylinC's picture
I wouldn't waste your time on

I wouldn't waste your time on DummyThinker guys. This is obviously a wind up as a form of entertainment to piss people off because he's obviously enjoying it so don't keep feeding him. Either it'll get bored and fuck off or the mods will ban him.

I just think it's funny. Religion is dead and people are leaving in droves but this moron is just too stupid to realise it.

At least it's nice that he's happy enjoying his deluded fairy tales. See ya later shit-for-brains.

arakish's picture
MarylinC: "I wouldn't waste

MarylinC: "I wouldn't waste your time on DummyThinker guys. This is obviously a wind up as a form of entertainment to piss people off because he's obviously enjoying it so don't keep feeding him."

Because we are sadomasochistic enough to also enjoy pissing him off with mental capabilities he is incapable of (critical thinking, logical and deductive reasoning, and rational and analytical thought). Besides, the Religious Absolutists have been beating us so hard for the over ½ century I have been alive.

Ever heard how torture has diminishing returns until it becomes useless? Well I have been tortured and tormented and persecuted and discriminated by Religious Absolutists for so damned long, there is nothing they can say that will bother me in the least. And it is fun to finally turn the tables and "to do unto them as they have done unto me." Ain't that their Golden Rule?


EDIT: fixed misspellings

dogalmighty's picture
There is no defending

There is no defending theistic based there is no such thing. Morality is just a descriptor of innate human behaviour...therefore can't be dictated...only observed. Now as moral behaviour is innately good, which it has to be to support well being of our species, anything that dictates moral behavior, like religion, is going to have a negative effect on action, away from good...good being what we humans are encoded for. As I have always said...You have to be religious to be immoral.
Right Cardinal Pell?

Sapporo's picture
Personally, I'd rather be

Personally, I'd rather be murdered than be tortured for eternity. I think acts like rape are a form of torture: I thus cannot think of anything more immoral than torturing someone for eternity.


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