I have been reading here for the past few months. I really enjoy reading what all you folks have to say. I have reall been educated more here about the content in the Bible than I have by anyone in my time on Earth. Growing up, my family wasn’t religious, but I had friends who were. I found it hard not to believe when so many people did, Also, many people in the public eye, of who young people would look up to, were open about their religion. I struggled with that until one day I sat and thought “ if it doesn’t sound possible,and it doesn’t make sense, it’s probably not true”. At that point I became a skeptic. I started thinking in ways you guys do. Example: Why pray for help for something god caused? Why would god allow children to be mollested and then forgive the fucker that did it? If prayer works, why do we still have cancer,starvation,and poverty? Finally I concluded it was all bullshit. If you remove money from religion, it would vanish before our eyes. The people who push this shit are worse than any devil they could preach about. I’m tired of their racist, prejudiced, and elitist bullshit! I may not post often, but count me in when it comes to calling god out to be a fairytale.
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Did you get here on the crosstown #5 bus? Lots of folk do...its the usual route. It's the stop right next to the JHOP, don't be tempted. Anywho, glad ur here...and timely too...smackdown a theist day is coming real soon.
@doG Re: " the stop right next to the JHOP..."
Hey, I've heard it is all-you-can-eat pancakes and fish for just the low price of a small bottle of frankincense. Or, if you don't have that handy, the same amount of myrrh will also be accepted. Oh, and it is rumored that the owner of the place can turn water into maple syrup.
I heard the owner went away to see his father, whom was actually himself, and hasn’t been seen since! Good thing because a zombie in a restaurant would be bad for business.
@PJ Re: "I heard the owner went away to see his father, whom was actually himself..."
Which brings up a curiosity question...
Do they have to file "Single" or "Jointly" on their taxes? Hmmm... Oh, dang! Just remembered there are technically THREE of them, right? Big Daddy, J.C., and The Spook. Geeez.... How is THAT going to work on the tax forms if they have to file jointly???.... *scratching head*.... Oh, wait. Nevermind. They don't have to pay any taxes. My bad...
Their problem is finding a lawyer in heaven.
Welcome to AR Pirate Jack!
I am glad you took the time to write something. While everyone is free to lurk and read, and that is just fine, I always welcome more input and conversation.
Really good point.
Would love to see all the major religions try to operate without any money for a couple of years, see how "strong" the faith is for both the followers and the religious "leaders" is.
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▮Please include @LogicFTW for responses to me
▮Tips on forum use. ▮ A.R. Member since 2016.
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You know In order to hold a “Liturgy” in our Church, all one needs is a stone, a blanket, and a relic of a saint. There is no requirement of wealth. It is unfortunate that many Christian clergy get out of control with their lust for money, because this is contrary to our faith. Excess, I agree, should be frowned upon.
A church asking for donations, however, is a different animal. A building with 1000+ members is not cheap to uphold. Lights, heat, electric alone costs money. How do you expect the church to pay for these things? There should be no monetary requirement (as there is none with our church) but we should voluntarily donate. Many of our priests do not earn a salary. If we want the church to survive, we should each donate what we can to offset the costs.
So your non-sequiteur does not really seem well thought out. I see what you are saying, honestly, but No major religion could provide the buildings and services necessary without cash. That’s not a problem with religion, it’s a problem due to secularism and the importance of commodity.
@ HT
I dunno, why does your god expect you to foot the bill? Just bears out the adage that "god thinks in mysterious ways but it's the congregation that does the footwork and pays the bills". That is the miracle of herd behaviour.
Surely an Omnipresent, Omniscient Being could, well, I dunno, at least give you a magic crystal to heat the place in winter....
(Edit tag)
Good point. But nothing more.
@ Humble Thinker
Actually it is a whole lot more...about 80 BILLION US dollars due to the tax free status of your god and its churches in the US...about the same plus BILLIONS in land grants ( kept secret by successive governments) in Australia so it looks like its actually a taxpayer funded operation...whether you are a believer or not....we get to PAY for YOUR Sunday feelgoods....lets not even go to Europe or where the churches are handmaidens of government...like Russia, UK, and Greece to name but three.
Religion would die if it had to pay its way like a normal revenue positive business...even Real Estate sales (with a similar business model to religion) have to pay taxes.
If your priests had to pay for their fancy robes, their palaces, their lifestyles of the bishops, cardinals and so on, there would be even more of an exodus from the church than there is now...but it is the poorest of the congregation that pay most for the richest excesses of the 'faith'.
I don't see god helping out with that lot...oh of course he has 'inspired' the chosen to shepherd his flocks and harvest the money. Your god can just sit and watch the carnage.
@Humble Thinker Re: "...out of control with their lust for money, because this is contrary to our faith."
Obviously, the Pope, all his Cardinals, and the entire Catholic Church in general failed to get that memo. Hmmm... Must have been misplaced along with the same memo that declared it is wrong to sexually abuse little children... *shrugging shoulders*...
Oh, by the way....
Hey, Pirate Jack! Welcome aboard the Good Ship AR! Or, rather, it is good to see you posting as opposed to lurking. Always good to have another hand on deck. Well, since you have been watching us from afar for some time, then you should already be familiar with where everything is. Find a bunk, stow your gear, and make yourself at home. Just a little word of advice, though.... Might want to keep an umbrella handy if you ever notice Cog up in the Crow's Nest. Just sayin'....
"A building with 1000+ members is not cheap to uphold."
And it would be completely unnecessary if the message of the Christian faith were unified. Somewhere in the bible you missed the meaning of the word "Church" and fail to see how Christianity changed it over time. A "CHURCH" is not a building, it requires no money at all. The word means "Body of Faithful People." It is the modern tradition of "Church: and the very justification you have given that makes it corrupt.
https://www.ucg.ca/bible-study-lessons/what-is-the-church/historical-bac...
The 1000k Agree button has been pushed
@cog
I agree completely.
Ahoy matey, welcome aboard. Argh.
I am glad you got the critical thinking turned towards religion, and yes,it doesn't make sense. The bible does not make sense, and it is so full of contradictions anyone can interpret anything from it. And since theists use the bible to prove their deity, the wind has gone out of their sails and they are under bare poles (a ship without her sails set).
My journey was sort of similar, but what happened after is interesting once I reached liberation. More and more evidence just reinforced my decision, and today, I see no alternative. And yes, the wonderful people inhere just make it firmer in my convictions.
Please remember one thing ... never have any liquids in your mouth when reading this forum. Let's just say that spewing milk out your nose and onto the keyboard sounds nice on paper, but it's a mess to clean up.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BnqTw1eM7ng
Hello, and welcome. Good first post as well...
Welcome PJ
Nice to hear from you... keep it up! The few genuine theists we get here tend to be of the missionary variety, convinced of their own superiority and (even if seeming ever so humble) overweeningly arrogant in their suppositions.
Sharpen your teeth on their bones here and you can be gentle with your deluded (and assuredly more ignorant) peers at home.
I don’t want to interrupt the love fest that is happening here, but can’t help myself from commenting. (I successfully ignored the first few, but have to jump in at the last, ever so subtle, nod in my direction)
First off, I too, welcome you. Always exciting to here someone else’s point of view. I only hope you maintain an open mind while you explore these pages.
Second, my personal mission in these forums is far from Propheletizing I would venture so far as to say very few theists are. I come here and join the discussion to offer a perspective that is scientifically and experientially different than everyone else. To be honest, it is really only for self gain.
Having said that, the examples you gave as reasons to leaving your faith are not uncommon. Different churches have different answers, but maybe it’s about finding the church that gives you an answer that satisfies your intellect. Being ‘smart’ does not exclude you from theism, as some would suggest. Maybe the issue is you just haven’t found the right answer?
@HumbleThinker
That's like an alcoholic telling someone who is now sober that maybe he hasn't found the right drink.
Lol couldn’t help but laught at this. Especially since I am known to enjoy a few drinks now and again
But in all seriousness, it’s not.
@ HT
*crowd answers as in English Panto*
In all seriousness; YES IT IS
@ NOT HumbleThinker
CHK-C: "That's like an alcoholic telling someone who is now sober that maybe he hasn't found the right drink."
HumbleThinker: "But in all seriousness, it’s not."
YES IT IS!
rmfr
@ CHK-C
Nice one Cyril....that had me laughing...and so on point.
Let us examine this HumbleThinker. For 'faith" it is just one of two choices, belief or disbelief. He was a theist, and did some hard thinking. The conclusions he arrived at altered his perception of god, and he voluntarily and with great deliberation over a considerable time changed his position.
Is it not possible he made the right choice, that he found the right answer?
For myself, both my mother and father were very active in the church. My father was a Mason, my mother Eastern Star. What triggered my leaving was initiated by the realization that the church activities my parents participated in was more of a social club than worshiping.
No matter what church, from a 1,000 seat mega-church to a hovel with just 5 members, faith should carry the day. Because your divine inspiration (jesus) started with just a very small crowd, and did not need anything but a hillside. All of the trappings are just a display of wealth, and thus power, intended to instill awe.
How difficult would it be for god to show us he’s really there? Don’t give me that blind faith shit either. Back in the Bible days there were all kinds of shit going on. All I want is one damn appearance. Should be easy compared to all that biblical stuff. I don’t know how that shit keeps going. I’m no genius, but my bullish detector works pretty well. It took me some time to trust it when it came to god.
David Killens,
"No matter what church, from a 1,000 seat mega-church to a hovel with just 5 members, faith should carry the day. Because your divine inspiration (jesus) started with just a very small crowd, and did not need anything but a hillside. All of the trappings are just a display of wealth, and thus power, intended to instill awe."
That is a very noteworthy observation that hasn't gotten very much discussion. Consider all of the trapping and set decorations that are mandated in Exodus and Leviticus and the temple worship in the New Testament and the simple worship services that the Jesus character conducted and told his Apostles to do. And then compare how Christians built awe-inspiring churches over the centuries to transport their believers into an other-worldly experience from their lives of drudgery.
An energetic person could write a large book about it. Are people more impressed by the stage decorations or by the message? Which draws the larger crowd, the fancy church building or the simple street corner preacher?
@Humble Thinker Re: "Different churches have different answers, but maybe it’s about finding the church that gives you an answer that satisfies your intellect."
Yep. One down. Only a few thousand more to go. And, heck, that's just counting the Christian sects. Haven't even mentioned yet all the other thousands of different religious beliefs practiced on the planet. Rather brings to mind poor little Charlie trying to find that Golden Ticket into the Chocolate Factory. Only, in this case, nobody is certain any Golden Tickets even exist in the first place. But - hey - just keep opening up all those chocolate bars, boys and girls! How futile an effort could it possibly be?
One more little tidbit, now that I think about it.... All those thousands of different Christian sects using (for all practical purposes) the SAME totally infallible indisputable PERFECT word of God. (Which has been edited and re-translated countless times over the centuries.) Notice "thousands".... Not two or three or a couple of dozen. A few thousand different sects. With each sect interpreting those PERFECT words in their own manner to fit their own agendas, while at the same time scoffing at and belittling and sometimes using violence toward any other sect for being "wrong" in their beliefs about what the cherry-picked scriptures in that precious book really mean. Uhhhhh.... So, yeah, great advice there, HB. Continue to open those chocolate bars one by one....
Humble Thinker: Said - "Being smart does not exclude you from theism." I suppose that is true because there are some very smart theists out there, so I have heard. I happen to like Wolphe when he debates. Very solid character.
With that said.... Being smart should prevent you from making comments like, " I come here and join the discussion to offer a perspective that is scientifically and experientially different than everyone else."
There is nothing at all on Humble Thinker's plate that resembles anything at all from science/ I have to give him the experiential crap but I have seen Jesus standing in the doorway of a psych ward during an earthquake professing the end of days. So What? Experience has little to do with anything unless it is shared. observed, measured.and predictable. You know, that science stuff!
@humbletwinker
"Different churches have different answers,"
Good point. Showing reason that dispels a gods existence...kudos.
"but maybe it’s about finding the church that gives you an answer that satisfies your intellect."
Good point again. Showing all theists failure to reason, is endemic of belief.
"Being ‘smart’ does not exclude you from theism, as some would suggest."
Hilarious. In fact, it's a requirement.
"Maybe the issue is you just haven’t found the right answer?"
You did read his OP, right? Looks clearly like he found an answer that is based in reality. I would say his ability to reason is intact, and no longer in question.
Now you, on the other hand...not so much.
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