What is it in religions that justifies, encourages or promotes rape?
Please, specify the religion(s) you speak of and show evidence from religious Scripture of that religion or cite legal rulings related directly to that religion.
'A christian/jew/hindu/muslim/Mormon once said' is not citing evidence.
If you are simply unable to - and you will be unable to - show such evidence, you can also elaborate on the reasoning behind your belief - either way, for religion promoting rape or condemning it.
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So I spent a few seconds on google...
Among countries with reliable evidence, the highest pregnancy rates among 10–14-year-olds were in Hungary and the United States, while the lowest was in Switzerland. The highest birth rate among this age-group was in Romania, followed by the United States, while the lowest, again, was in Switzerland.
(quoted from: https://www.guttmacher.org/news-release/2015/teen-pregnancy-rates-declin...)
Sex resulting in pregnancy with a 10-14 year old is fairly universally considered rape these days, even if the male was close to the same age.
Lets see how religious are these countries, well, Hungary and US are quite religious, and Switzerland is among the least religious countries in the world. This pattern mostly holds up pretty well if you were to plot all the countries 10-14 birth rates to how religious the country is.
It is also important to note that these graphs are missing a lot of data from many highly religious countries that can not or do not report reliable data/statistics!
Child marriage rates:
https://www.girlsnotbrides.org/where-does-it-happen/atlas/#/
It is also important to note that this map is missing a lot of data from many highly religious countries that can not or do not report reliable data/statistics!
I am sure folks will chime in with even better data then this, but I figured I would start off.
Edit to add note about Hungary:
Hungary used to be VERY religious (christianity,) but is turning secular, they are seeing a nicely matching decline in 10-14 yr old pregnancy rates to go along with this decline in religion however! They just have a ways yet to go.
Also off the top of my head there is a couple of documentaries about child brides, (many of which end up having sex with their "husbands" before they are even 14,) and religion is always heavily involved. I can provide a few links if you want.
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"Sex resulting in pregnancy with a 10-14 year old is fairly universally considered rape these days, even if the male was close to the same age."
No, it isn't. Rape is a legal term. Not something you can apply as you wish.
I purposely tied it to the legal term. What should I tie it to? Your definition of rape? Mine?
Also remember these numbers is when the 10-14 year old gives birth. Making it highly likely that the sex occured 9-13, and sadly there is reason to think the sex (rape!) occurred when they were even younger (just the poor girl was luckily? not able to conceive yet!)
Certainly you are not going to try and ask a 9 year old girl, hey, do you feel like you were raped or was it consensual?
You state you are female, do you remember when you were 9? Do you think you could of resisted pressure from an 50 year old adult marriage partner when you were 9 to tell you it was consensual to the police/authorities?
Rape is a horrible and ugly word for an even more horrible action. Unfortunately we do not live in fairy tale land where a magical invisible wizard god makes sure everything is always fair and right and we can pick a perfect definition everyone can agree on what "rape" is.
The dictionary definition of rape is sex without consent, or against the will of the victim, it is ubiquitous in nature, and not just humans, thus it is not simply a legal term. It is you who is trying to apply the term "as you wish" or with a subjective bias.
In a legal context of course, if the law says a person under a certain age cannot give consent, then this axiomatically makes it rape even by the standard you just set. So you're posts wrong on a number of different levels.
In that case...
Victim A, your honour.... The Virgin Mary.
The Accused... God.
@Sheldon, we're talking about 10 to 14 year-olds generally (which is a fault in itself), a 14-year-old can generally give consent, so can a 13 and a 12 year-old. 11 and 10-year olds do get quite young. Nevertheless, it would be a decision made by the court on the basis of the individual situation.
Do you really think every, or even a majority of 12 year olds is capable of giving true consent?
Kids are smart, they impress me all the time with their intelligence, but every 12 year old is capable of resisting an adult bent on manipulating them to fulfill their lusty desires for little kids?
Society laws by and large already compromised on this in a reasonable fashion, by mostly decriminalizing this if the 2 are very close in the same age, as long as they were completely free of influence from older adults. And there is no way all 12 year olds can truly be considered to be able to resist "grooming" by an older man. And 99+ percent of the time there is never any benefit to the 12 year old to engage in sexual activity with anyone, especially some 50 year old.
If 14 is below the age of consent, then it is by definition rape. Consent is not simply verbal affirmation, the emotional maturity of the person is a determining factor. Also your view that "a 14 year old can generally give consent" is a little worrying I must say. I don't think any 14 year old has the emotional maturity to give informed consent.
To whom it may concern:
Just out of curiosity, has anybody else noticed how Leper is starting to sound more and more like our dearly departed Fergie/FIG/AB/DC/Billy? It's really fascinating in a way. Almost as if there is some secret "Troll/Sock Puppet" school somewhere that teaches these poor little socially-challenged and ethics-deprived misanthropes how to speak and act the same. Hmmm... I wonder if there have been any studies on that... *scratching chin thoughtfully*...
Edit to add: Oh, almost forgot. Same applies to Rabbi Mark. Matter of fact, the more I read from each of them, the more and more I am convinced they each have the same hand up their ass. Just an observation.
@LogicFTW
You initially spoke about 10 to 14-year-olds.
If a child is unable to defend themselves or unable to understand then yes, it may be called rape, BUT 14 year-olds definitely have concensual sex so this division is just too vague.
But more to the point, what does all this got to do with religion? Do you think there are more pedophiles among the religious?
FYI, it appears a popular scientific theory these days is that pedophilia is a biological concequence to begin with, like being gay is/may be to some extent.
@Leper
I did and I remained talking about them, I pointed out 10-14 year olds having babies very likely means sex encounters occurred likely at least 1 year earlier than that. 9-13, meaning the majority of these sexual encounters (of which I would call just about all them rape) Occurred to a little girl age 9-13.
So what about all the 9-13 year olds of which is likely the majority of this 10-14 statistic of child pregnancy?
You could maybe argue a few of these encounters of 14 year olds having sex with other ~14 year olds could possibly maybe been truly consensual, but you would be lying to yourself if you thought that is what happens in the majority of these cases. But 9 year olds having sex? 10 year olds? When a VAST majority of such girls are not even capable physically of having a baby around that age?
I made that connection for you in my previous post but you already seemed to have what.. conveniently forget? Graph countries that actually reliably report child pregnancy rates and compare those data points to how secular or not a country is and wham! you got a nice graph that indicates a powerful connection between religion and rape.
Pedophile among religion follows because we know at least a percentage of these young pregnant girls got there not from a peer in age, but instead by someone significantly older. It helps nothing that Mohammad/Muhammad openly took a 6 year old bride and had sex with her by the time she was 9. A supposed moral/religious leader central to islam. And the absolutely horrifying rates of sexual pedophilic debuachry by old priest in just about every religion, despite churches enormous power to suppress news of such negative PR crimes that are constantly coming to light.
Actually agree with you there. Knowing that pedophillia is a biological consequence, what does that tell you about your supposed divinely inspired prophet created by your god idea?
How does being gay being a biological event (as you like to put it: by design of god and god takes credit for all of this,) jive with Islam's homicidal stance towards gay people?
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@LogicFTW
"How does being gay being a biological event (as you like to put it: by design of god and god takes credit for all of this,) jive with Islam's homicidal stance towards gay people?"
There is no such thing.
The Quran narrates the story of the "people of Lot" destroyed by the wrath of God because they engaged in lustful carnal acts between men.[1][2][3][4] The hadith also mentions homosexual and transgender behaviour as condemned[5][1][6][7] prescribing death penalty for male homosexuals[8] and banishment for transgenders.[7] Homosexual acts are forbidden in traditional Islamic jurisprudence and are liable to different punishments, including the death penalty, depending on the situation and legal school.
(wikipedia)
1) Everett K. Rowson (2006). "Homosexuality". In Jane Dammen McAuliffe (ed.). Encyclopaedia of the Qurʾān. 2. Brill. pp. 444–445.
(references 7:80–84, 11:77–83, 21:74, 22:43, 26:165–175, 27:56–59, and 29:27–33)
2) Duran (1993) p. 179
3) Kligerman (2007) pp. 53–54
4) Bearman, P.; Bianquis, Th.; Bosworth, C.E.; van Donzel, E.; Heinrichs, W.P., eds. (1983). "Liwāṭ". Encyclopaedia of Islam (2nd ed.). Brill. doi:10.1163/1573-3912_islam_SIM_4677.
5) Mohd Izwan bin Md Yusof; Muhd. Najib bin Abdul Kadir; Mazlan bin Ibrahim; Khader bin Ahmad; Murshidi bin Mohd Noor; Saiful 6) Azhar bin Saadon. "Hadith Sahih on Behaviour of LGBT" (PDF). islam.gov.my. Government of Malaysia. Retrieved 26 July 2019.
7) Everett K. Rowson (1991). "The Effeminates of Early Medina". Journal of the American Oriental Society. 111 (4): 676–677. JSTOR 603399.
8) E. K. Rowson (2012). "HOMOSEXUALITY ii. IN ISLAMIC LAW". Encyclopedia Iranica.
No such thing you say?
I'm not sure on specific lines within holy books that refer to rape, as it's a modern terminology.
But they all refer to women being sexual property and thus people were found guilty of committing crimes in that way.
Either way, it's nice to see these sacred texts from an infallible God, essentially treating women as animals for their own sexual gratification.
@Random
"But they all refer to women being sexual property and thus people were found guilty of committing crimes in that way."
Source please?
Wasn’t it Lot who offered his daughters up as an alternative when the crowd wanted to rape some angels?
@CyberLN
It is my understanding it was so in the Bible, but in the Bible you can't blame him much since his daughters later got him drunk and raped him to get pregnant..
@leper
That just as bad or worst, that muhammad marrying a 6 year old girl, and then having sex with her at age nine.
edit
@xenoview
"That just as bad or worst, that muhammad marrying a 6 year old girl, and then having sex with her at age nine."
I don't think that is true so I don't usually argue about it.
@leper
Does the koran say when muhammad married his child bride? Does the koran say when he had sex with his child bride?
@xenoview
There is no such thing you speak of in the Qur'an.
https://islamandwesterncivilisation.com/posts/child-forced-marriage/aish...
Sahih Muslim Book 008, Number 3310:
‘A’isha (Allah be pleased with her) reported: Allah’s Apostle (may peace be upon him) married me when I was six years old, and I was admitted to his house when I was nine years old.
Sahih Bukhari Volume 7, Book 62, Number 64
Narrated ‘Aisha:
that the Prophet married her when she was six years old and he consummated his marriage when she was nine years old, and then she remained with him for nine years (i.e., till his death).
Sahih Bukhari Volume 7, Book 62, Number 65
Narrated ‘Aisha:
that the Prophet married her when she was six years old and he consummated his marriage when she was nine years old. Hisham said: I have been informed that ‘Aisha remained with the Prophet for nine years (i.e. till his death).” what you know of the Quran (by heart)’
Sahih Bukhari Volume 7, Book 62, Number 88
Narrated ‘Ursa:
The Prophet wrote the (marriage contract) with ‘Aisha while she was six years old and consummated his marriage with her while she was nine years old and she remained with him for nine years (i.e. till his death).
Leper, you wrote, “but in the Bible you can't blame him much since his daughters later got him drunk and raped him to get pregnant..”
WTF? That’s the sort of crap courts and cops (in the U.S.) used to say about rape victims...what was she wearing? Did she flirt? Was she out alone? Was she drinking? His daughters weren’t perfect so I guess, according to your logic, it’s ok if they got raped.
@CyberLN
Prejudice to take it so literally. I was only pointing out the absurdity of the whole story.
Leper,
Prejudice? I read what you wrote and responded. If you meant something else or something in addition to what you wrote then you should have written it. You have the audacity to accuse me of prejudice because I was unable to read your mind?
CyberLN
If I read anyone's post that was similar to mine it would not occur to me to take it literally, unless I happened to know they are criminal already guilty of sexual assaults or other physical abuse. So yes, prejudiced. It isn't the only thing you're prejudiced about.. But don't be so insulted, everyone has prejudices, it can't be avoided.
So what is your prejudices Leper?
Leper, you wrote, “If I read anyone's post that was similar to mine it would not occur to me to take it literally, unless I happened to know they are criminal already guilty of sexual assaults or other physical abuse.”
1. If you read something in a certain way, that obligates others to do the same?
2. How am I to know you are NOT guilty of committing sexual assault or physical ab?
1. It's not an obligation, but in this case you would be breaking the rule in a negative way.
2.you should believe good about people if you have no reason to think otherwise imo. Again, not an obligation, but if you are mentally stable and an adult I think it's largely a social expectation. Perhaps my expectations regarding you are just too high?
The koran tells a different Lot story in which Lot wasn't really offering his daughters. He was taken out of contect. He really meant 'the daughters of the nation' in legal marriage to boot but the sex mad mob wouldnt listen.
Lot's wife who still doesnt have a name was the one who alerted the mobs to the presence of the desirable angels. She doesnt get the piillar of salt treatment but remains behind for the destruction but hey she is only Lot's woman so no great loss yeah?
So sordid is the story of Lot having sex with his daughters it has been left out of the koran entirely. Make of that what you will.
I have always wondered how Lot and his girls, sudden overnight refugees hiding out in mountain caves, managed to carry enough wine to get Lot drunk twice in two nights so his daughters could rape him. Twice. Its a sad defence for a guy with already doubtful morals.
Poor Lot. Misunderstood (no not MY daughters) betrayed by his own wife and victim to the lacivious natures of his own daughters....makes me think he must have been one shitty kind of family man.
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