I'm a Christian, with questions!
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So why are you playing these word games?
When it comes to evidence I can demonstrate many things. For gravity, I can pick up a pencil, let it go, and it will fall in the same direction every time. That is repeatable and consistent results.
Christians claim that their god works in this world in the form of plagues, floods, miracles, many other phenomena. So since your god works in this world, where is any evidence?
You claim your god manifests itself on this planet, so just provide proof, evidence.
"why would I believe any evidence that is brought to the table? "
Obviously because it was objective, which is what I asked for. I think you're ignoring the word objective, is it deliberate? You understand what objective means in this context I take it? So why would anyone disbelieve it would be a more apropos question.
"Evidentialism, as a method of obtaining truth is faulty because it is circular reasoning."
"There is more **evidence for Yahweh's existence than any other God I know of. "
I've seldom seen anyone so utterly destroy their own post and beliefs.
"Scripture clearly allows the existence of other gods. "
No it doesn't, it merely makes claims. Harry Potter books do this for wizards. Without objective evidence claims are meaningless to any open minded person.
Evan G Wilson,
"There is more evidence for Yahweh's existence than any other God I know of."
According to the biblical fairy tale the only reason the general public ever gave Yahweh a second thought is because the con men religious nuts would kill them if they expressed any negative thoughts about the issue. And the crazy Yeshua character cursed people with hell fire because they thought that he was nuts. Even his own family didn't believe in that wacko.
"2. You have presumed that I disbelieve in other gods. I don't."
this is going to be fun to watch...
If you list the interview questions, folks here can review them to decide if they feel comfortable proving answers. Many folks here are happy to answer interview questions, some find them invasive and rude (like they are being put on display in a zoo).
You will also likely find responses from folks that you deam inappropriate. Oh well. It happens to me too...think in terms of, “you’re going to hell for not believing. You’re the devil! You have no morals! Etc.
You said you would enjoy talking with AN atheist about their views. You will find, perhaps to your dismay, that any person who is identified as atheist has a wide variety of views about all sorts of things. Talking to one would likely be a vastly different experience than talking to another.
As has been said already, the only thing that can be said to be common to all atheists is that they don’t believe in any gods. Please understand that this is not to say they claim there are no gods. One can be an a/gnostic a/theist...That equals four different positions. In my experience, most folks identified as atheist are agnostic atheists and most identified as theist would say they are gnostic theists.
Edited for typos
Thanks for the heads up!
The teacher sounds more like a superstitious troll to me. Frankness, not intentional insult. This sums up my views, if that helps...
And this too...
Songs are much more wholesome and time-saving than a silly theological debate. I don't care about anyone's theology as long as they accept one-law-for-all, separation of Church and State, freedom of speech and expression (including freedom of and from religion). Just keep religion out of politics (e.g use of condoms and equality questions), science (e.g. Creationism), morality (LGBT and women prejudices), the law (religious courts) and education (faith schools). Religionists shouldn't mutilate children's genitals for religious motives either; nor (Holy Cow!) put ritual slaughter of animals before animal rights.
By the way, I don't call myself atheist. That is a label religionists call non-beleivers (like apostate). I just accept redundant theological labels if the theologian insists on using them.
And The God Delusion (Dawkins). Read that and you've pretty much understood disbelief in gods. It's the same as disbelief in any other superstition.
Always good to exchange ideas.
he's not a troll. im one of the students and this is our real project
Thanks, Isobel, but I've seen your thread. You "believe in" the one, true Christian god. Enough said.
why the quotes around believe in?
Because the term "believe in" is a land mine that can have different definitions for different people. For example, if you stated, "I believe in the Christian God" and I stated that "I believe in the theory of gravity", we are using the same terms, but applying them to different contexts.
The strength of your conviction is not for debate, but the God you believe in can not be proven to exist by any standards, while gravity is measured, repeatable in experiments, it's properties being understood.
Many of us in here must be careful with our use of words and definitions because ignorance and gullibility are the enemies of truth.
"Many of us in here must be careful with our use of words and definitions because ignorance and gullibility are the enemies of truth."
Amen to that brother...
I would like to make a clarification between monotheism and monolatry. Scripture says we are to have no other god before the LORD (Yahweh) your god. It does not say that these gods do not exist and there passages that affirm their existence. I worship the one true God, with out excluding the existence of others. "True" is not synonymous with "real", "actual" or "existing".
I honestly do not know what my student Isobel thinks about this. She may deny the existence of other deities, but for my part I don't deny them.
i am going to have to disagree with the idea of the existence of other gods. i think we can't technically disprove all of them, but i personally dont see much reason to believe in them.
So, Isobel,many would say you are an agnostic atheist about all the gawds other that the one you are asserting is real.
Isobel, he as actually accurate on this one, but that is nothing to be sorry about. It is possible that only one deity exists at the exclusion of others. You just have to admit the additional specific claim you make. To say, "Zeus does not exist" is as dangerous as saying "Yahweh does not exist", not because you are playing with an unknown judgment, but because the evidence is lacking.
“he as actually accurate on this one”?
"dangerous as saying "Yahweh does not exist".....because the evidence is lacking."
What does evidence for a non-existent thing look like? It sounds like an oxymoron to me.
yeah suppose u could say that
"i am going to have to disagree with the idea of the existence of other gods. i think we can't technically disprove all of them, but i personally dont see much reason to believe in them."
My irony meter is broken again.
Sorry Isobel, no offence intended. What objective evidence can you demonstrate that your deity is any more real than any of the other deities humans have created?
well first of all the numerous eye witnesses to the miracles of Jesus and the prophesies that predicted his coming LONG before he came. many theistic religeons say a random prophet speaks and recieves truth through visions and gives no reason to believe them and the commands they give r usually very self interested.
We are back to claims again that are basically untrue. You should listen to Cognostic.
There are NO contemporary eye witness accounts to any miracles conducted by a "jesus". In fact there are no contemporary eye witness accounts for "jesus" at all.
There is strong evidence that the Roman version of the gospels where the supposed prophecies were proven were entirely retro edited to fit, e.g two chapters added at a much later date to Matthew, just for one example of wholesale gerrymandering. .
"well first of all the numerous eye witnesses to the miracles of Jesus and the prophesies that predicted his coming LONG before he came."
That's too damn funny!! Even Yeshua's own family didn't believe in him. They thought he was a lunatic. And what's even funnier is that his momma had been told that he was going to be special. By the time he became a pre-teen she had forgotten all about that. Whole towns rejected him and his simple tricks. And he never did move that mountain.
So here we are. His own family thought that he was nuts. Whole towns rejected him. But today nitwits that that he was legit because of words written on flimsy paper claim that he was legit. Even the Bible says that people shouldn't believe in such silly stories.
Titus 1:14 (CEV) = "Don’t pay any attention to any of those senseless Jewish stories and human commands. These are made up by people who won’t obey the truth."
Can you list any biblical story that isn't senseless?
The idea that the Gospels are eyewitness accounts has been shot down long ago by serious Bible scholars. Those who still insist on such live in an isolated bubble. As for the Old Testament, it knows nothing of Jesus at all. However, that hasn't prevented the Gospel writers from twisting it out of context to support their much later theology. It's a kind of 20-20 hindsight with an added twist!
Sheldon "What objective evidence can you demonstrate that your deity is any more real than any of the other deities humans have created?"
isobel "well first of all the numerous eye witnesses to the miracles of Jesus
Eyewitness testimonies are by definition not objective evidence, do you believe all the testimonies of people who claim to have been abducted by aliens?
"and the prophesies that predicted his coming LONG before he came."
Begging the question fallacy, what objective evidence have you that this happened at all, let alone was predicted. Why do theists not know what objective evidence means?
"many theistic religeons say a random prophet speaks and recieves truth through visions and gives no reason to believe them and the commands they give r usually very self interested.""
And this is relevant to my request for objective evidence beeecause???
You now when you come to a forum like this, and claim to have interest in why people are atheists, and they ask you to demonstrate objective evidence for a deity, one would expect you to demonstrate the very best evidence you have. Yet not only does your post not contain any objective evidence, and a common logical fallacy, but you appear to not know what objective is? What should I as an atheists infer from this, and your entry into this thread talking of your resolve to remain a theist?
1) Resolve to remain believing something = closed minded.
2) Not being able to demonstrate one piece of objective evidence on request = irrational belief
3) Not knowing what objective evidence is = a failure to grasp or understand what you're basing your beliefs on.
4) Thinking a book can validate it's own claims = no grasp of what constitutes proper objective evidence for a claim.
Why should we care what claims the bible makes? The bible can't validate its own claims, and you seem to be claiming demonstrations of objective evidence are useless?
You might as well claim the Harry Potter books validate wizardry.
@Evan G Wilson: I have no read the other responses yet so that I may respond with my own opinion.
Excellent. There is no reason at all to become rude to a Christian until they begin telling us that we have no morals, are going to burn in hell or begin using their scare tactics as insults. Most of us here would love for you students to post questions or engage in conversations.
As you are actually teaching apologetics, I would hope that you mention your God is an un-falsifiable proposition that can neither be proved or disproved. As such, the atheists have no burden of proof in rejecting Christian claims. It should be clear that the Null-hypothesis can be adopted with regard to Christian claims until such time as actual evidence is presented. If you think you got something, post it.
I would suggest posting one idea at a time. If you post a string of ideas or arguments, obviously the posts will be excessively long. Quite a few of us here are long winded.
Appreciate your post and your student's questions should be welcomed.
Hey thanks! I maybe send one of my students to you, since you appreciate organized discussion. These threads can get out of hand very easily! I wasn't really planning on asking the questions myself. This was more for the students.
I acknowledge the unfalsifiability of God, because I acknowledge the fallibility of man. The real question is (in a Cartesian fashion) how do we know anything? After that we ask (in a Humean fashion) how can we say we OUGHT to do anything? When we realize man is insufficient to these tasks unless we have the "Over-Reason" (CS Lewis term) to support our own use of reason, to obtain knowledge only by the allotment of the All-Knowing entity.
I don't know if have much more energy for the discussion at hand but I appreciate a response. I will read it, but I may not respond!