Intelligence and belief in God--John Lennox

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fiat124's picture
Cognostic--I notice you are

Cognostic--I notice you are in this forum a lot. I bow to your great knowledge.. You are right "the" question" has been answered many times fore 2 pages.. Basically your answer is the same.. 1. lack of critical thinking skills 2...Lack of rationality He opts to believe in magical voodoo instead of evidence etc. Yes all the answers -yours included say the same thing.. HE DOES THE EXACT SAME THING ALL THEISTS DO. or smart people can be stupid or stupid can be smart (in different ways). BUT what is curious HOW SMART BRILLIANT people can believe in the literal interpretation of the bible.. ..Try to give an explanation to WHY HOW even if you think the exercise is boring or useless . Try--Do it for me.. Try not too insult me.. I am very sensitive

comoke1024's picture
Theism plays on one's

Theism plays on one's emotions, rather than intellect:
Fear: Believe in me or go to Hell
Love: A perfect being loves you completely
Ego: This universe was created with you in mind

They're separate beasts. No relation that I can see.

arakish's picture
Question: fiat

Question: fiat

I must apologize. Maybe I didn't explain myself very well. All of your responses in different ways gave me examples of Smart people like (John Lennox) who are not so smart. I get that-you get that-we all get that. There are smart people who are stupid. My example of John Lennox is an example of that. The interesting reason for discussion is WHY.. What is going. That a brilliant professor who speaks 5 languages can believe in the virgin birth of Jesus, Noah"s arc or the earth is 10,000 years old....WHY HOW --What is going in John Lennox brain that he believes such crazy nonsense.. Is it a virus.Is it a fungus growing in his brain.. Is it a mutation of cerebral logic. Is John Lennox really a pod from aliens.. No matter what I write in my posts for some reason you ridicule me. I am very sensitive and my feelings get hurt easily . Please be nice to me. I a good person. The question is not that smart people can be very stupid but WHY HOW ????????????????????????????

Answer: Cognostic

You have been answered for over 2 pages. 1. Lack of critical thinking skills in one area. He does not apply what he knows about religious beliefs. 2. Lack of rationality. He opts to believe in magical woo woo instead of direct evidence. 3. He lacks the ability to be skeptical when it comes to his religious beliefs.


And for further examples…

While I was in college after winning my law suit against the IRS, earning a 2nd Baccalaureate, a Masters, and working towards a PhD, guess how many classes I ended up dropping and re-taking because the instructor was a Religious Absolutist? At least a dozen. Perhaps more. I never kept count. And now try to guess in which section of college courses these instructors were in? Liberal Arts. Most, if not all, colleges I have attended and/or visited, had college courses divided into two major sections: Liberal Arts, Physical Sciences. Then these were further divided. At literally every college I have visited and stole a course catalogue just to peruse what each offered, I still do to this day, if it is a university I have never visited, all universities tend to divide into two major sections: Liberal Arts and Physical Sciences. And most of the jocks will ALWAYS focus into the Liberal Arts because those courses are not as difficult and as intense.

Now, for the kicker, guess into which major section all mathematics courses are placed? Liberal Arts. It is in the Liberal Arts curriculum where you will find the most religious university instructors. It is damn near impossible to find any Liberal Arts instructors who can keep their religiosity separate from their teaching job. Most have to have a complaint filed against them, sometimes many complaints, to keep their fucking religiosity out of the damned classroom.

Remember one thing about Religious Absolutists I have said on these forums many, many times.

Arakish: “I can attest to the aggressive tactics of theists. The main reason behind their aggressiveness is due to the indoctrination processes they are put through utilizing absolute psychological terrorism. Essentially, they are taught that they are to go out into the world and "save souls" even if it kills us godless heathens.

The only university instructors I have found that ALWAYS keep their teaching profession separate from their religiosity are the ones in the Physical Sciences section. If they are religious, they also happen to be more intelligent (than the Liberal Arts instructors) and keep their religious beliefs, or lack of, out of the classroom. Even if they are asked by a student, I would say at least 9 out of 10 will reply, "What does that have to do with the price of tea in China?"

The adage, "What does that have to do with the price of tea in China?" actually means "What does that have to do with [whatever]?" Just substitute the [whatever]/the price of tea in China, with whatever you are talking about.

Thus, since John Lennox falls into the Liberal Arts section of universities, that just means he is smart enough to earn a PhD in math, just ain't intelligent enough to recognize lies. Remember one of my definitions for Religious Absolutists: "Knows the facts, sees the facts, but stupid/gullible enough to believe the lies."

As everyone else has said. Just because a person is brilliantly intelligent, does not mean they won't also be stupid/gullible enough to be brainwashed. I myself, as others have said, have seen some of the most brilliant people who also have been brainwashed so deeply by the indoctrination processes the Religious Absolutists employ so as to be die-hard believers.

As an aside, remember that the Religious Absolutists will begin their indoctrination processes upon the defenseless minds of children between the ages of 4 to 14 when the child is at their most vulnerable for social and cultural and religious indoctrination utilizing a controlled and systematic process using mental rape, emotional molestation, and psychological terrorism. The child's norms of fidelity are tyrannically dictated and imposed in such a way that children are trained to vomit conflicting ideas and to never consider the veracity of what they puke.

Religious Absolutists are trained to react to ideas, and to reject them no matter what you are told, presented, and/or taught. Religious Absolutists are taught to never question their beliefs. They are militantly trained to maintain and preserve the faith. And, due to this designed abusive training and indoctrination process, they shall defend the faith with apologetics, beguiling dialectical semantics, distorted and perverted data, emotional whiny-ass pleas, and sometimes divinely-inspired violence.

Worst of all, their conditioning is so ingrained that they never question why they need to defend their beliefs and faith at all. This form of indoctrination, no matter its intended outcome, is actually “child abuse” in the form of the most heinous, outrageous, nefarious, hideous, abominable, atrocious “psychological terrorism.” All of which is immoral in any moral landscape. However, due to the First Amendment, religion gets a free ride to practice all the immorality they wish. One only has to prove it is religious to prove it is not immoral.

Their indoctrination processes teach Religious Absolutists to never think for themselves, but to close their mind against all things except for what some human-made, fictional, make-believe Sky Faerie and Magic Lich Virgin in an obsolete and irrelevant and barbaric and savagely immoral Bronze and Iron Age religious texts commands them to think. For me, that is the most heinous of acts, especially to do it to children. And no matter whatever you may say to the contrary, this is child abuse. And I wholeheartedly agree with what David Killens here at the Atheist Republic forums once said:

I despise apologists, especially those who use their skills to sway the minds of children, and rob them of their independence and self–worth. They also begin a journey of life that will always posses fear. I do not like it, and if I had the power, I would prosecute apologists for child abuse.

You beat a child, they will bruise, but they will recover. Teach them religion, and they lose many admirable characteristics, and be scarred (and pretty messed up) for life. Both are despicable acts, but one inflicts major long term damage.

If I had my way, not only would I arrest the apologists for child abuse, I'd have the parents arrested for giving their children into an abusive environment.

Basically, John Lennox was probably so psychologically damaged from his brainwashing that he shall never recover. The same can be said of all PhD Religious Absolutists, especially Apologists like William Lane Craig the Genocidal Sociopath.

I, for one, am glad of the way my mind thinks. When I asked my dad why I could not believe the Bible or Christianity, he replied, “Your brain and mind thinks like a computer. If it ain't rational or logical, it does not compute.” This is also why humor tends to evade me. My wife helped me lot with that problem. However, sometimes there are things persons will immediately laugh at, but I have to sit and think about it.

It also explained why I was so good at writing computer programs before the accident that killed my family. My problem now with computer programs is not that I cannot write them, and they work, just that when they don't work exactly as intended, I cannot debug the damn thing. It now takes me about 10 to 100 times as long to debug as to write the program in the first place. And these damned IDEs are worthless with their suppossed intelligent debug tools. Those debug tools just causes me to take even longer to debug a program.

Let me shut the fuck up. I am starting to get on a rant.


Cognostic's picture
@Skeptical Kevin:

@Skeptical Kevin: "Religion plays on emotion and not logic."

I could not agree more. "Do not think. feel guilty because you killed baby Jesus. Do not think, believe or get tortured in the burning pits of hell. Do not think, unless you turn and become like children, you will never enter the kingdom of heaven. Do not let your Child think, Train up a child in the way he should go; even when he is old he will not depart from it. Always remember it is FAITH that you can rely on, so faith comes from hearing, and hearing through the word of Christ.NOT BY THINKING. Faith is the evidence of things not seen and you can not please God without it. Don't THINK.

comoke1024's picture
@Cognostic, exactly. I would

@Cognostic, exactly. I would have so much more respect for religious institutions if their way of converting was "Here's a link to our holy book. Email if you have any questions." But that's not how they proselytize. They drag you to church and Sunday School, they give you fire and brimstone talks, they play amateur psychologist and promise you answers to all your tough questions about life, the universe, and everything, when that question was settled in a famous book by Douglas Adams.

arakish's picture
42 rmfr



bob.warfield's picture
Sorry - Atheists don't have

Sorry - Atheists don't have all the intelligent people, and religions don't have all the dunces.

For example, 55% of college graduates in the US "believe in God with absolute certainty".

In another related web site I can't find now. The group with the highest education in the USA is the Hindu group. Maybe you can find that web news (I think it was from Pew).

arakish's picture
@ Bob Warfield

@ Bob Warfield

Sorry - Atheists don't have all the intelligent people, and religions don't have all the dunces.

For example, 55% of college graduates in the US "believe in God with absolute certainty".

In another related web site I can't find now. The group with the highest education in the USA is the Hindu group. Maybe you can find that web news (I think it was from Pew).

First off, unless you are a Religious Absolutist Apologist, which it is seeming to lean that way, but I still refuse to say either theist/atheist, I would not trust any data posted by the Pew Research Center.

Reason: It is actually a religious apologist site masquerading as a pseudoscience organization which has convinced the US government that is not religious and to support it. And it is a damned shame you could not see the outrageous lies of perverted and distorted data inserted into that web page full of bullshit and horse hoowhee. So much for your mental capabilities of critical thinking, logical and deductive reasoning, and rational and analytical thought.

Yes, immediately, the web page is correct in that “55% of college graduates in the US "believe in God with absolute certainty".” However, what they neglect to mention, one of the top ten favorites tactics of all Religious Absolutists, is that those 55% are from the "Liberal Arts" degree programs. When I was in college last time, I did a survey with only two questions:

  1. Is your degree program within Liberal Arts or Physical Sciences?
  2. Do you believe in any deity?

I'll let the results later. Patience is a virtue my young Padawan.

Additionally, your statement: “Atheists don't have all the intelligent people, and religions don't have all the dunces.” is entirely true and correct. However, the greatest amount of intelligent people are atheist while the greatest amount of dunces are religious. If I were to guess, I would say that the 75% of the most intelligent persons who are atheist (and I do not count myself) are more intelligent than ALL of the religious peoples combined.

And here is something for you to ponder. I did a GIS (Geographical Information Science) analysis on the "good of religion." I think you will be shocked by the results, unless of course you are atheist.

Some GIS Analytical Research Into The GOOD Of Religion

Current research evidence does not support the common view that religiosity is positively correlated with good morality,” so said Sam Harris in many posted YouTube video clips.

In fact, I used QGIS software, and the most recent TIGER data from the Census Bureau and crime data files from the FBI (as of December 2017) to see how correct his statement is. Hell, the FBI files took about a month to download because there are so many. It took me several months to compile all the files into a single geodatabase, but my research has shown that the more religious a population, the higher the crime rates, specifically violent crime. While the same research shows that the more educated (thus, less religious) a population, the lower the crime rates. If religion is so damned good for us, then why does it seem to spawn so much more violent crime?

Here are some research numbers:
Bold = Highly educated; persons with at least a Master’s degree or higher; or multiple (2+) Baccalaureate or higher degrees.
Emphasis = Highly religious; persons with only a high school diploma, or no high school diploma; Associate’s degree or lower, or no degrees; or home schooled.

This is only in the United States, perhaps the most religious nation on Earth (excepting some Muslim nations).

  • Of the 25 states with the lowest rates of crime, 5 are red, 20 are green (a 1:4 ratio).
  • Of the 25 states with the highest rates of crime, 19 are red, 6 are green (a 3:1 ratio).
  • Of the 25 most dangerous cities, 22 are red, 3 are green (a 7:1 ratio).
  • Of the 20 most safest cities, only 2 are red, 18 are green (a 1:9 ratio).
  • Of the 19 states with the highest rates of burglary, 16 are red, 3 are green (a 5:1 ratio).
  • Of the 22 states with the highest rates of theft, 18 are red, 4 are green (a 4:1 ratio).
  • Of the 22 states with the highest rates of murder, 19 are red, 3 are green (a 6:1 ratio).

Notes on how I chose these listings. With the cities/states I chose enough from the list to get at least “3” of whichever color. The only exceptions are the 20 most safest cities due to the fact that to get a third “red” city, I would have had to take the top 38 most safest cities making it 3 are red, 35 are green giving a ratio of 1:12. I figured a 1:9 ratio was bad enough. And to really add insult to injury, to get the fourth “red” safest city, it would been 52 cities making it 4 are red, 48 are green, still a 1:12 ratio. And you call us atheists dangerous and immoral, and to be trusted less than rapists and murderers?

And to add more insult to injury, the first red “most safest” city does not appear until number 16. And to pour more salt in the wound, in the “most dangerous” cities, the three green ones are numbers 19, 22, and 25. So much for atheism being so dangerous!

On the highest theft, I could have stopped at 21 cities making 18 are red, 3 are green. Since adding the 22nd city would lower the ratio (from 6:1 to 4:1) I decided to be a nice guy and cut you Religious Absolutists some slack. I also made it match the number of highest murder states.

I made the choices above just so I would not have to listen to your weenie-whiney-ass pleas about being a vindictive atheist. See, us atheists are actually good people.

Reiteration: If religion is so damned good for us, then why does it seem to spawn so much more violent crime?

These I could NOT cut any slack for you Religious Absolutists. More shocking numbers on the goodness of religion (researched as an afterthought):

  • 93% of convicted child molesters identify themselves as Christian %O (a 13:1 ratio).
  • 84% of all inmates identify themselves as religious believers (a 5:1 ratio).
  • 0.02% of inmates identify themselves as Atheist, meaning only 1 in 5000 are Atheist.

And look again at the first one. This definitely warrants a full-blown: “What the Fucking God Damn Hell is wrong with you Christians?

I mean, “93% of convicted child molesters identify themselves as Christian?!?” And since, when?, the mid-80s?, this has really come back to bite you Christians in the ass.


And now for those other numbers…

The two questions were:

  1. Is your degree program within Liberal Arts or Physical Sciences?
  2. Do you believe in any deity?

Final results of my Sociology 201 project?

  • Liberal Arts: Yes = 54%, No = 44%, Undecided = 2% (±1%)
  • Physical Sciences: Yes = 42%, No = 55%, Undecided = 3% (±1%)

See? It is not just whether a person has a higher education, it is also dependent upon the TYPE of education.

Pew Research Center also neglects to state that persons with a Master's Degree the numbers continue to drop to about 70-75% not believing in religion (combination of both Liberal Arts and Physical Sciences); with a PhD, the numbers drop to about 85-90% not believing; and finally, the scientific elite (Stephen Hawking, Neil deGrasse Tyson, Richard Dawkins, Daniel Dennott, Sam Harris, et. al.), the numbers drop to about 96-98%.

Final Summation: Watch what data you pull from the WWW. Religious Absolutist Apologists are constantly looking to brainwash persons who do not utilize their mental capabilities of critical thinking, logical and deductive reasoning, and rational and analytical thought to their side of the debate. A debate they are losing. And they know it.

Also, if you want a primer on logical fallacies those dastardly and contemptable and vile and appalling and depraved Religious Absolutists and the Apologists constantly use: Rhetological Fallacies (PDF).


Cognostic's picture

THIS IS A GREAT EXAMPLE FOR "fiat:. Cite 55% and then post the link. Conclusion - Not all theists are un-intelligent. Well expressed and well cited.

Unfortunately, the distinction between smart and intelligent has been drawn. Anyone good at memorizing information can get through university. It says only a little about overall intelligence. There are still critical thinking skills, rational thought, and the ability to use what one has learned. I will not disagree with the assertion that some Christians are smart. I question the use of the word "Intelligent." Especially when it comes to "Magical Thinking, Evil Spirits, Witchcraft, Afterlife, Unseen Forces, and the rest."

Edited for Citation:

David Killens's picture
What is more revealing would

What is more revealing would be a valid survey comparing religious/atheist over the years, following college students as they 1) leave their homes 2) get exposed to new ideas ) possibly changed their position.

Because many theists home-school their children and carefully control their indoctrination and contact with the outside world. But once that teen leaves home and goes to college, they are exposed to a whole new world, and leave religion.

arakish's picture
@ David

@ David

That would be utterly interesting.


Cognostic's picture
Many theists home school? 35

Many theists home school? 35%, of about 2 million total home schooled students (3.4% of total Home Sch students), are home schooled for religious reasons. That would be about 700,000 students. I guess that's many. I think the majority go to public or private religious schools. Still I agree with the premise, once these teens leave home and to collage they are likely to leave religion. One of the teachers in my office was raised Amish. I kid you not. He is an awesome guitarist, has an advanced degree in archaeology, and some fantastic stories to tell about his life on the farm and how he got away.

David Killens's picture
I apologize. Stating "many"

I apologize. Stating "many" implies a large percentage. The true number may be a lot less than I suggested.

Nyarlathotep's picture
A blast from the past.

A blast from the past.

But seriously this is what kenny (fiat) does, lol. If the future is anything like the past, he'll get more and more worked up about this until he loses his shit. I'd almost call it self trolling.


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Cognostic's picture
@ Nyarlathotep: I call

@ Nyarlathotep: I call it.....

DSM IV: Narcissistic personality disorder (NPD) is a personality disorder with a long-term pattern with exaggerated feelings of self-importance, excessive need for admiration. Therapy is often difficult, as people with the disorder frequently do not consider themselves to have a problem.

Signs and symptoms:
1, Grandiosity with expectations of superior treatment from other people
2. Fixation on fantasies of power, success, intelligence, attractiveness, etc.
3. Self-perception of being unique, superior, and associated with high-status people and institutions
4. Need for continual admiration from others
5. Sense of entitlement to special treatment and to obedience from others
6. Exploitation of others to achieve personal gain
7. Unwillingness to empathize with the feelings, wishes, and needs of other people
8. Intense envy of others, and the belief that others are equally envious of them
9, Pompous and arrogant demeanor

JUST SAY'N, IF THE SHOE FITS..... (Facts are facts.)

Randomhero1982's picture
The theistic metronome....

The theistic metronome....


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