Lets rewind

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jimmyslns@yahoo.com's picture
Lets rewind

Lets hit pause and rewind things a little bit. I can see that i have made a grave mistake in my approach so I'll have to take a difderent one. You see, i am a theist. Unfortunately in my day to day life, i dont come across many atheists to discuss what i believe to be a matter of great importance, namely the existence of my God. I have always wondered, truly, what goes on inside the mind of a non-believer, what leads them to disbelief, if you will. It has been one of my greatest ambitions to accrue enough knowledge to be able to convince atheists of their mistaken position. So i joined this atheist community so that i could gain better understanding of my target group's points of view. I thought i could take their arguments, present my own, and then that would be enough, the atheist would see things my way and poof, no more atheist. Admittedly, that was naive of me. In the few topics I've commented on, I've already been ridiculed, laughed at and have probably done absolutely nothing in terms of achieving my goal.

But now i realize why. I'm over here trying to discuss the merits of a book which the atheist places no stock in. Trying to convince them that its the word of a God that they dont even believe in to begin with. That was foolish on my part.

Now though I'd like to try something different. I'd like to convince any who are willing to be challenged, that God is real and that he does exist. For this to happen, you must have an open mind. Leave your preconceived notions and biases aside and simply humor me.
Nooo dont worry, I'm not going to ask you to pray, i am simply going to appeal to your own logic and your own understanding. As i said before, you must have an open mind and you must leave your biases aside.

Of course, i cant promise that i can convince every one of the atheists in this community or that my reasoning and logic will work for everone. Certainly there will be some who will scoff at even the idea of a theist who thinks they can convince them that they're wrong. And, i expect there will be some who simply cannot abondon their set ideas and beliefs about God, or a lack thereof, and will not be willing to play along.

Now, given all of that, i can promise the following.
If you allow me the benefit of the doubt and you humor me and you come onto this discussion with an open mind and a willingness to discover truth, it WILL be revealed.

Now let me be clear, if you are willing to come on this mini journey of sorts with me, it may challenge everything you believe in and shake the very foundations of your beliefs themselves. But if you really want truth, this shouldnt bother you.

To any who wish to take up this challenge i say to you what i said to a certain Jeff on another discussion:

A creator exists. This much i know and can logically and philosophically prove.

So to any and all atheists who would like to take part in such a discussion, comment below.

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Jeff Vella Leone's picture
"To any who wish to take up

"To any who wish to take up this challenge i say to you what i said to a certain Jeff on another discussion:
A creator exists. This much i know and can logically and philosophically prove."

I remember that reply and I lost that topic, however my answer was similar to this:

LOL, I wish to see you using basic logic to prove the existence of a theistic god.

Showing evidence or prof of "A creator" is a very long way to go to the concept of a theistic god.
It is like trying to show that a fish can cook a hot dog, just by showing evidence that it can get out of the water.

Jeff Vella Leone's picture
Yes, I take your challenge

Yes, I take your challenge and yes, I am open minded, if you show with logic or evidence for a theistic god, I will consider his existence.

mysticrose's picture
There might be a god but not

There might be a god but not the one as described by any religion.

Capt.Bobfm's picture
O.K. What's your proof ?

What's your proof ?

Travis Hedglin's picture
Will you go with the

Will you go with the cosmological or teleological argument?

jimmyslns@yahoo.com's picture
Well before we touch on any

Well before we touch on any arguments, I'd like it if we touched on agreements first. This is very important as we all need to agree on certain things for the success of my endeavor. Fair?

Jeff Vella Leone's picture
Bring it on, usually it is

Bring it on, usually it is here that the problems are, since theists tend to have the foundations wrong especially what an atheist or anti theist is.

Some theist don't even get past this stage,

I am glad that at least you understood such basics.

what are the things you think we agree about?

jimmyslns@yahoo.com's picture
Im glad you've brought this

Im glad you've brought this up, because in fact, I've found that what most who call themselves atheists actually suscribe to is really agnosticism, since they couldnt possibly have enough information to conclusively make the truth claim that there is no god. All thats left for them then is to say idk. This isnt the case with you tho Jeff is it, i see you are quite secure in your conviction that God does not exist, but i digress, let us continue below with the more pressing issue at hand

Spewer's picture
"I've found that what most

"I've found that what most who call themselves atheists actually suscribe to is really agnosticism..."

This may well be true, and it is not the contradiction you seem to imply. Atheism is a statement about belief, while agnosticism is a statement about knowledge. I am both: Atheist, because I lack belief an any of the deities I have heard about to date, and agnostic because I can never know with certainty.

Technically I consider everybody on the planet to be agnostic, as we are all incapable of certainty with respect to "spirit beings." People have varying degrees of confidence in their belief or lack of belief, but that alone is not a reliable indicator how valid the position is.

Jeff Vella Leone's picture
well said spewer

well said spewer

Yes i am an agnostic, atheist and an anti-theist

BTW No one claimed that there is no god, re-read what i wrote.

Atheist just lacks belief in a theistic god
Anti theist lacks belief in a theistic god and thinks that any theistic belief is harmful for any society.
Agnostic is that we have not enough knowledge to judge whether there is a god or not.

You can be the 3 of those since a theistic god is just 1 type of god, the one which in most cases goes against logic itself.

jimmyslns@yahoo.com's picture
"Atheist just lacks belief in

"Atheist just lacks belief in a theistic god"

Sounds a LITTLE different to what your buddies at American Atheists have to say.

"Atheism is usually defined incorrectly as a belief system. Atheism is not a disbelief in gods or a denial of gods; it is a lack of belief in gods."

But altogether unimportant

Jeff Vella Leone's picture
"Sounds a LITTLE different to

"Sounds a LITTLE different to what your buddies at American Atheists have to say."

It DOES NOT sound a little different
It is the same thing but they are taking for granted that you know that we are talking about a theistic god.
They think you know the difference between a Theist and a Deist.

Which seems that you don't know from your replies, that is why I had to be more specific.

Travis Hedglin's picture
Fair enough, let us discuss

Fair enough, let us discuss agreements then, what things are we going to have to agree upon to get things rolling?

watchman's picture
jimmysins ....

jimmysins ....

You only get one chance to make a first impression .....

jimmyslns@yahoo.com's picture
Well really there are only a

Well really there are only a few things i think that we have to agree upon so that we can make any progress in this discussion. Chief among those things is truth. I am a seeker of truth at heart because i believe that not only is truth absolute and exists objectively regardless of our knowledge or understanding of it, but that it CAN be discerned in MANY of if not all of life's areas. It necessarily and logically follows that the opposite of true is false.

Can we agree upon this?

Travis Hedglin's picture
I will make three points on

I will make three points on this line of reasoning before we are done, and illustrate where we will agree on this.

1. Objective reality exists, all truth claims are dependent on an individuals subjective perception of reality, so the truth of the claim is dependent on both reality and our perception of it. This means that no truth claims can ever be completely objective.

2. Truth is a value we assign to statements and claims based on whether it aligns with our perception of reality, we can't actually assess if it actually does align with objective reality, just our perception of it.

3. I would prefer we went with "evidently true" and "not evidently true", as if someone isn't able to make a sufficient case for something being true, that does not automatically mean that it is "false". If you posited that something is possible, with insufficient evidence to show that it has occurred, that does not mean we should consider it impossible. You would have only failed to demonstrate that it occurs, not that it isn't possible.

That's A Fallacy's picture
You, Jimmy, have just used a

You, Jimmy, have just used a fallacy, thus defeating your own claim. Fallacies are flaws in logic that may help your side of the argument, but are not used in legitimate arguing. The fallacy you used is the Black and White fallacy. Here is the basic idea of the fallacy: You have simplified the argument down, whether on purpose or not, to make it easier to choose, even when additional options may occur. The famous phrase "Are you with us or against us?!" is a famous black and white fallacy. This video will help explain.

Jeff Vella Leone's picture
Truth is something we try to

Truth is something we try to find, it does not mean that we can find it always.

So you need to be more specific with examples when talking about truth.

1+1 = 2 which is a truth, now if some claimed entity does not follow such logic then he must have something which is false or exaggerated.
Do we agree on this?

CyberLN's picture
1 + 1 = 2 is only true within

1 + 1 = 2 is only true within certain contexts. It's important to call out the context before this continues.

jimmyslns@yahoo.com's picture
1+1=2 is true in ALL contexts

1+1=2 is true in ALL contexts. The only way to get a different answer from 1+1 is to say that a man and woman (1 + 1) make a baby, and now you have 3

CyberLN's picture
You are wrong on this one

You are wrong on this one jimmy...go educate yourself a bit before you make such claims.

jimmyslns@yahoo.com's picture
Why dont you educate me then,

Why dont you educate me then, dont just say im wrong

CyberLN's picture
Nope. I won't.

Nope. I won't.

You are on a debate board. If you are going to make silly statements, it's your responsibility to have your ducks in a row first. Get off yer arse and go look it up yourself. I'm not doing your work for you.

Travis Hedglin's picture
In binary, 1+1=10.

In binary, 1+1=10.

jimmyslns@yahoo.com's picture
I disagree. Do not quantum

I disagree. Do not quantum mechanics defy logic? Or else how can something be in two places at once

Nyarlathotep's picture
No matter what you read in

No matter what you read in the popularization of science magazine, you can not find a particle at 2 separate locations simultaneously; for many different reasons.

jimmyslns@yahoo.com's picture
My first step was to make

My first step was to make clear that truth itself is not subjective, it exists and is unchanged regardless of our opinions or thoughts or beliefs, it is objective.

Secondly i want us to agree that truth CAN be determined. Agreed?

Nyarlathotep's picture
I like to think there is some

I like to think there is some objective truth. However in practice I feel there is very little, and very little of what people claim is objective is really objective. Additionally, I think you went a bridge too far in your definition of it.

jimmyslns@yahoo.com's picture
I'll give some examples;

I'll give some examples;

We have not met.

I am a man.

I have two eyes.

I am of latin-american origins.

These are all truth statements that make a particular truth claim. They can be argued, debated, disagreed upon, but the truth can be dicovered quite simply. All it takes is one look and you'll find thag i am a man with two eyes.

See my point?

Jeff Vella Leone's picture
Hmm, you are making some

Hmm, you are making some assumptions and consider them as truth.

"I am a man."
This is relative to your concept of man, so this "truth" is subjective to your opinion of what a man is.
If for example in some Indian culture, a man has just 1 ball(they cut one at birth), then when they see you with 2, for them you are not a man but an abomination.

A man could be also a description of the person and not just the body.
Lesbians are man with the body of a woman.
Are they a man or woman according to your philosophy?

The problem here is that you are touching philosophical bedrock about what is the truth and what can be understood as truth.
Truth in itself can be considered objective but the understanding of truth by humans is mostly subjective to the individual mainly because of different knowledge on that particular truth.

"All it takes is one look and you'll find that i am a man with two eyes."
Again you repeat the same mistake, what makes you think that what you are seeing is the truth?
A human interpretation of something cannot be compared to the objective truth you claimed originally.

You are mixing the human understanding of truth with the actual truth.

Most Jokes and pranks use this weakness of human understanding of truth every day since they are subjective and can be deceived easily.

have a laugh:


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