Hello everyone, I have some ideas flying around in my mind. The materials that sparked these thoughts are the following, A Confession by Leo Tolstoy and this video: https://aeon.co/videos/an-ageing-philosopher-returns-to-the-essential-qu...
I highly recommend reading A Confession, but at least watch this video as I know that is easier sometimes. I find that discussions surrounding religion, belief etc are often heated and emotionally fueled. There is a place for that, for fighting for what you believe in and creating the good change you desire to see in this world, but I believe deeply that ideas ought to be played with as well. So I am asking you guys to play with these ideas. I am a christian, I will get that out of the way, and I am well versed in the thought and beliefs of atheism and its view on religion. I don't think the usual out lash is necessary here, and I think I could probably write a more biting attack on religion for myself than you could provide. As a member from the inside I know what can send me off flying into a pit of doubt. I am not here to defend my faith or convince anyone of anything, I want to learn from you people and how you process these difficult questions. Sam Harris said something interesting, how atheism isn't a philosophy, it's just a kind of baseline belief (or lack of belief, that point is made incessantly). This lack of belief in gods does not tell us how we ought to live, what we ought to do and how we ought to behave. We must build something. As they say, "Atheism is only the beginning". Now, I am mostly directing this to people who say that there is an "ought", that human behavior and life ought to go a certain way, that there is something meaningful to carve out in life, and life isn't all for waste. I guess the way I would define meaning would be truth, purpose, direction, and ideally something that is actually real outside of opinion. But I think I am beginning to impose my beliefs here so I'd like to open this space up for people to discuss and share meaning. Anyways. I finished reading a confession, and watched this video today, and wrote the words below. It's just a story, not about me, but I am trying to paint a scene, and I hope you guys can interact with this. A lot of thoughts and influence has gone into this, and not a lot of time in writing, I just wrote it in five minutes and looked it over once (ok twice) so its nothing incredible. There are a few run on sentences. But I think my point is being made and I hope you guys can interact with it. I was kind of interacting with the influences mentioned above, and also from what I gather from the Myth of Sisyphus (I haven't read it yet but will) and the poem Do Not Go Gentle Into that Good Night by Dylan Thomas. So I am eager to hear your thoughts and I hope to interact with intelligent and coherent thinking, that I may learn, benefit and grow.
I sit in my room, in a nice apartment, in a quaint little district on the outskirts of Hong Kong. Other apartment buildings surround, not too high. There are shops and skyscrapers near too, about five minutes. But here are smaller apartments, meant for habitation. I look out my window, to the right. Through it I see a tall apartment, it looks dark blue with those shiny, reflective mirrors. Behind that, a green hill, the kind that surround Hong Kong. I turn my head forward and look at the wall. There is a small painting, of french countryside. Two fields of wheat are split by a path, leading to a barn on a hill. There are a few clouds in the air, and the whole scene is filled with that angelic, golden afternoon light. This same light pours through my window, lighting the dust aglow, shimmering and waving through the sun beams. When I was a child my brother thought it was magic. That was long ago, and I am alone in Hong Kong. I watch the dust shimmer. And I am dying. And the confession brings tears to my eyes. I am dying and my lips quiver. Tears swell and roll down my cheeks, and I make no sound. I sit there, watching the golden dust, and know I am dying. I feel that I am drifting, disconnected from reality. The framework of life, what I knew to be true and how everything worked, the things that needed to be done, melts in the face of death. Life no longer has any say, death nulls any rule, any plan, any ambition. Watching this dust, the minutes feel as hours. What is there for me to do? I will consume a certain quantity of food and drink before I die, I will sleep, I will interact with other humans, I will rid my body of waste, experience certain neurochemical firings in my mind, and stare at this dust. And then I will die. And what is the point? Why should I complete these certain tasks, fulfill these activities before death? What is it’s worth? It is nothing to me. And looking back, all my life was nothing more than a slow approach towards death. I distracted myself, I worked, read books, sang songs, told myself I loved others. Told myself I had found meaning in my life, I had created a meaning. But these actions were no more meaningful than they are now. There is no meaning, only things going on, only things happening. And all will lay down in the dust of death. I feel that I have been lost forever in a cave, and all my life I have marveled and fancied at lighting matches. Yet the matchbox is only so full, and I am down to the last one. Why should I light it? It will not keep me warm, for so long I have rushed after this world and tried to convince myself I wasn’t cold. I would be an idiot to expect this match to be different. I am a fool, was a fool, lived as a fool. For nothing, in the end. Death is coming, and nearly here, and all my matches were just distractions. Stories, oh how stories should have saved me when sex, family, money and food could not! Yet stories lied, they taught me to see heaven and light when dark and rot surrounded me. I wandered around my cave with visions of heaven like a madman, unable to see what was in front of him. In the name of love! In the name of the spirit of man! In the name of brotherhood! This meaning was delusion. All is waste, made for waste. We build towers to prepare them for the fire. We birth sons and daughters that they may be embraced by the arms of death. Death is our God, and we endlessly feed it. Each day we bring new sacrifices for its altar. We are lured by the scent of life, by the possibility of joy, always just out of grasp! But death is on the end of the line, waiting for us, and it has come to claim me. It tricks us into carrying on; death has shown me for a fool. As if delusion or distraction could keep me from its embrace, now it has come to declare victory over me. It lies there, patiently behind every hit of dopamine in my mind, behind every dose of ephemeral happiness. “Go on!” it says. Enjoy your portion while you can. You will not win, in the end. You will eat your portion and find that that was all there was. And when you have finished eating, and the taste begins to slip from your mouth, and your griefs return, I will be there for you. I will take you away. How I was a fool! No, I should have scorned this portion, I should have looked death in the eyes, I should have fasted. Yet this too, is meaningless. No defiance will open doors to heavenly kingdoms. No resistance or fight, no rage will amount to credit. This too, is meant to satiate, to sedate. My ego can drink deeply from my rebellion, and death will laugh all the same, for it knows it has won. Oh, death, how you have paralyzed me! And what should I do, as I await dying? My whole life I have been dying, waiting for dying, and what should be done? Nothing! This world is cold and dark. Death gives no answers, only promises. It promises its victory. I sit here on my bed, watching the dust dance, and know I am defeated. You have won, death, you have won.
So there's my happy little story!
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Before anyone else can say it, a possible response is that time has no bearing on meaning. The length of our lives do no determined whether they were meaningful or not. We can have a short but meaningful life. However, I think this only goes so far. I am comfortable with "short and happy life" and "short and distracted life" and "short and deluded life" but not "short and meaningful life." Why? I need to think a little more on that question, I don't have a full answer, but mainly if meaning means purpose, direction, i. e everything going towards something (and thus the actions taken to reach this value, state or whatever it is we go towards are thereby imbued with meaning) then human life and the universe on the large scale is going nowhere. The universe will end in entropic heat death, and human life will ultimately flicker out, for nothing higher than itself. Just gone. And all our goals ambition, and love will appear pitiful like Ozymandias in the end. We can deny this and say that there is meaning, and we find it in ourselves and our daily actions, yet I don't see how this is any different than distraction and delusion. We can be happy inside our little world, so long as our world can make us happy. And what if we should fall out of love with the illusions we chase after and find ourselves wanting? Then the world seems cruel and dark, and I don't see why anything should be done at all. Our meaning dies with our emotional state.
And so expanding upon my last comment, what solace do we give to the impoverished and suffering? Their world has betrayed them, and their life reduced to misery. No meaning can be given to them if our meaning is found in our circumstances, and in ourselves. The greatest thing we ought to fear is our discomfort, as that would snap us out of our trance. Think of brave new world, why would it be wrong for us to sedate ourselves? Fill ourselves with drugs and endless sex? Would that not be a world devoid of suffering? A life imbued with meaning? Interested to hear all your thoughts
Why not make the same inane assertions 3 more times. Sheeesh... take an anti depressant or something.
Yes, we are born, we live, and we die. You are implying the traditional "meaning of life" in the theist sense, that all of your life here is just waiting for the afterlife. I get it, I have seen the same argument in a lot less words.
So, can you offer any proof that life has any "meaning" after our bodies stop functioning? And what exactly is this "meaning"? To spend eternity sucking up to a god?
On a side note, I feel for you, you seem extremely despondent and depressed. Imagine how happy you would be if you never were exposed to religion, and knowing you had just one life to live, lived it to it's fullest and with joy?
Hey man! Thanks for the reply. I'm not depressed but do appreciate your concern. As I have said I am playing with ideas. In response to your comment, lets throw the afterlife out the window. So you're dead and that's it. Done. So when we die, we are gone. The meaning I am getting at is not dependent on the continuation of my consciousness after I die. I guess the meaning I'm getting at is that it has to be real for it to be meaningful, outside of my opinion and transcendent. That there is a way we ought to behave. So that when I die, I may be able to declare truthfully that I lived a meaningful life. That is was in fact good for me to help people, and that it did matter. That there was a point. Obviously my desire for this to be real does not make it so. Yet at the same time it doesn't look like our lives have meaning, or that we ought to live our lives, without appealing to some objective truth, outside our minds. Again this is not dependent on the afterlife.
Now we are getting to the heart of the matter. You are implying an "objective truth".
Please define this "objective truth".
I can't, you and I know very well that no man can. So you and I both leave dissatisfied from this conversation. If you have answers for me please give them, but you have been around this place long enough to know there is nothing for me to say to you. Again, I am interested in what you are building instead.
@okokok
"Again, I am interested in what you are building instead."
I am currently running time trial laps in my racing sim rig to improve my lap times. I am currently checking out various web sites in order to watch a live stream of the Soyuz launch in three days. I am frequently checking out the tracking on some shipping on a product I ordered a few hours ago. I have many other activities that keep me busy and enjoying life instead of staring at my navel and pondering something that serves zero in my quality of life.
I suspect our communication problem is that you hold to the belief that there is something beyond the here and now. I live for the here and now, and attempt to make my daily activities positive and full of love and joy. There is absolutely nothing I can do about the known universe possibly suffering a heat death in many billions of years form now. So I don't waste any emotional fuel or time on that pointless exercise.
If you can demonstrate that there is something I should do in order to have a fuller life, then please explain.
Yes I agree we should live for the here and now, but I think living this life to my own end is a waste. Desire cannot make something true, but I do desire for goodness, love, "right" and "wrong" to be real. I want there to be some kind of light out there, something I can follow. Every human heart has some understanding of this, of goodness. Yet I see no reason to follow it if it isn't real. So am I weak? You say yes, I entertain delusion and fantasy in order to cope with the hard facts of life. But I read a story about a situation in the holocaust, where a group of prisoners were lined up and told one of them would be executed at random for some mistake they made. And one of the men stood up to be volunteered to be killed. There was no great applause, a bullet went through his head and that was it. Died. Yet his behavior, to me, is somehow so correct, so nearly divine that I have to believe that that decision is inherently better than bing watching Netflix, somehow. While all the other men were hoping desperately not to be chosen, he stood up to die. And that is very good. That is incredible. This does not mean that there is some kind of goodness out there beyond ourselves, yet I see no reason why I should live a life by this example if there wasn't. I see no reason to sacrifice my desires for others if in the end, that action is no more or less meaningful than any other. It's just hard me to live and deny that there isn't anything higher, or more beautiful happening around us you know. This is it and its time I faced it right? I want to believe that men are responsible. That we ought to behave virtuously because virtue is real whether we say it is or not, and because of its goodness we should lie to act it out. We can forget God and everything else, I can think of no better or more meaningful life than to have lived by virtue for the greater good, and that such decisions were worth something.
"You speak of light, fool do you see one? It matters not to the sky, if you say that you need one"
"You are right, I know, and this sky is black. Yet I imagine the sun, my heart can tells me what its like. And I must live as if the sun will rise one day. So I must work, I must plant my garden in wait of the light."
"There is food inside, why waste it? Come and you shall be filled, why starve waiting for the sun?"
"But I know what such food tastes like, and I know I desire more. I can think of nothing greater than to have lived by the light in my heart. To have planted my garden, to have waited on the sun. No greater joy would be mine than to see it cross that great horizon, to feel the light within me unite with that in the sky. And to see the fruits of my labor, to eat in the light, true light, that my heart knew right. So what of that food? Could there be any greater horror, to have gone inside and began my meal, and then to see the sun rising and blessing the earth outside? To have know that I let go of the light within me, denied my hearts truth, and gave it up for this here meal? Could there be any greater horror? It is better for to die in wait of the sun, following the light even if none exists, that I may live rightly by my heart. For I know what such food tastes like, and this light within me, this desire for the good and pure, whether true or false, shines brighter than any other hope or desire I wish to be fulfilled."
And I again I don't want to make an apologetic here. Faith itself is not a product of reason, I think I'm with Kierkegaard on that, as much as I can gather from what he seems to say. So I don't find it very useful for me to employ logic in convincing you of faith. That is senseless, self-refuting. It's called faith.
I do respect your faith, I just do not believe it applies to me. I know a heroin junkie who's faith is to score so he can slip into the warm embrace of "Mother Heroin". What difference is there between his faith and yours? Both give comfort to the individual.
Faith cannot validate anything, because it becomes possible to believe anything if it based on faith. Calims, beliefs and ideas can only really be validated by objective evidence, or sound rational argument.
And it it quite easy to shoot down the beliefs of another, but as I have mentioned in my post, I am curious to see what you have built. What meaning is there to your life? Why do you live? Why do you wish for anything, or do anything. Is there any meaning in life that will not be annihilated by death? What should you do? What is the purpose of your life? These are the Tolstoy's questions. Once you have seen the dragon at the bottom of the well and the mice gnawing at the root, how can you bear to stoop down and lick the honey? Are we such animals?
My life is what I choose to make of it. IMO I am doing a good job in filling it with happy time.
I live because my parents had sex. I live because I happen to enjoy what's going on around me.
"Is there any meaning in life that will not be annihilated by death?"
Definitely YES. I try to make this world a better place, if only a small contribution. I try to impart on other people positive values and life lessons so they can be better and happier people. My contributions as small, but hopefully lead to some people being better equipped ot handle the hardships of life, and hopefully, eventually, a better mankind free of things like starvation and pain.
I do not perceive my life as explained by Tolstoy in his analogy. https://www.goodreads.com/quotes/486243-there-is-an-old-eastern-fable-ab...
I do not fear death. Death is inevitable for everyone, get over it.
"Is there any meaning in life that will not be annihilated by death?"
No, only while you're living does your life have any meaning FOR YOU. It can of course retain some meaning for others after your own death, both good and bad, so it's another reason to treat others well, and try to avoid causing unnecessary suffering.
When your brain dies everything that represented you and who you were will cease, you may live on for a while in the memories of those who knew you, and how they feel about you may affect their lives, but how you lived your life won't matter to you at all.
Live your life well for its own sake, and for the sake of others, that should be enough for any decent person, without the illusion of posthumous reward or punishment. That way your life will have meaning to you while you're alive, and to those you care about, and who care about you. You can wish it was otherwise if you want, but there is absolutely no objective evidence for this delusion of an afterlife, and it's rather pointless to delude oneself, and such delusions don't help us live better lives, and that is amply evidenced by how badly so many theists behave during their lives whilst maintaining the idea they'll be forgiven for everything when they die if they are genuinely sorry the end. This is a deeply pernicious idea in my opinion.
If someone needs the threat of hell, or the saccharine myth of heaven in order to respect the rights of others as they would like their own rights respected, and to desist from pernicious behaviours like murder, rape, violence and theft, then they are just a shitty human being in my opinion.
And I think this is the heart of the matter. Is there any meaning that I must adhere to outside the security of my own emotional state? Is there any meaning outside of dopamine flooding my brain. If I was alone on an island and no one knew me, and never would, would it be wrong for me to us heroin until I died? I could just ride that rush out of existence
It is your life to live, it is yours to live as you choose.
You need to get out and meet people, get drunk, and laid. Sitting alone in your apartment and staring at your navel is not healthy.
edit: corrected typo. hot to not
"Meaning: is what you bring to life, not what you get from it." You are like the whiny duck billed platypus sitting on the bank of a river on a hot day watching all the ducklings frolic and play in the cool water while you feel sad for yourself.
Relax: unlike your life, this Buddhist tale has a happy ending. The platypus, feeling hot dejected and lonely manages to slip into the water. He finds it cool and refreshing. So much so that he forgets himself and begins to play. He is soon joined by the little ducklings and everyone has a nice day. The end.
Too bad you waited so long to learn this lesson. Euthanasia is still a viable option.
" would it be wrong for me to us heroin until I died? I could just ride that rush out of existence"
Well define "wrong" in the context you are using it? If you mean would the universe, or some fictional deity acre, then no, there is zero evidence for this. However your life as well as being drastically shortened would not be one continuous high, it would be brief moments of ecstatic highs, followed by long crushing lows, including the physical decline and degradation that the drug would impose as a cost. Do you care whether your actions harm others? If so then it should be obvious that such a choice would also be devastating for those who care about you. If your morality encompasses the idea that causing unnecessary suffering is wrong, then yes this would make such choice wrong. Even in the very unlikely event that one were completely alone in the world, is it truly moral to cause yourself unnecessary suffering?
"Well define "wrong" in the context you are using it? If you mean would the universe, or some fictional deity acre, then no, there is zero evidence for this."
To respond with your first comment I agree with your thoughts on the afterlife, and I have not imposed the afterlife on morality here. I clarified things a little better in my final post.
In this hypothetical situation, this man alone on the island, I see no reason he should not overdose once and die incredibly happy. He is alone on the island and this will cause much suffering and loneliness. It is better for him to end the pain quickly is it not? Take himself out?
Why should we base our morality on the avoidance of human suffering, and in favor of human flourishing and happiness? Is there a reason for this outside of your opinion on the matter? Obviously I agree with you that these things are wrong. Why are the configurations of atoms and energy more precious, more worthy of care, than that of a rock? There is no reason logically for this but we can't help but indulge this unfounded belief. It is necessary for our survival.
"Why should we base our morality on the avoidance of human suffering, and in favor of human flourishing and happiness?"
Not just human suffering, and obviously because it is a preferable to state for all living things that they not endure suffering at the hands of others, or unnecessary suffering.
"Is there a reason for this outside of your opinion on the matter? "
Given above, and my opinion isn't necessary on this as all animals try and avoid suffering when possible, and most humans would agree they would not wish to suffer at the hands of others, or at all if possible.
"Why are the configurations of atoms and energy more precious, more worthy of care, than that of a rock? "
What a particularly specious question, I'd have thought it obvious that rocks are insentient and cannot suffer anything.
"There is no reason logically for this but we can't help but indulge this unfounded belief. "
The reason is given above, though it is a moral one, and I don't see anything irrational about pointing out that avoiding unnecessary suffering is a better state to live in than the opposite where our actions inflict unnecessary suffering. Again how is this an unfounded belief? It is founded on the objective fact that it is better to live without unnecessary suffering than to deliberate cause it.
The basis of human morality is subjective as it is based on human reasoning, and can be based on nothing else, but once we accept that subjective foundation for morality we can certainly base decision about what is and what is not moral on objective facts.
OkOkOk: "I am well versed in the thought and beliefs."
Right off the bat, you sound like you haven't got a fucking clue about atheism. Please list (I'll be kind here.) 3 core beliefs of Atheism. ONLY 3. I got a hundred dollars that says you can't do it. You don't have a clue what in the hell you are talking about. HINT: Atheism does not have a view on religion. Please refer to the magic book of atheist dogma and quote the passage about what atheists should think about religion. YOU DON'T HAVE A CLUE.
"Sam Harris said something interesting, how atheism isn't a philosophy, it's just a kind of baseline belief (or lack of belief, that point is made incessantly)." AND STILL YOU DON'T HAVE A CLUE. WHAT IS THE MATTER WITH YOU?
HERE IS THE ALL TIME MORONIC STATEMENT OF THE YEAR.
"This lack of belief in gods does not tell us how we ought to live, what we ought to do and how we ought to behave. We must build something. As they say, "Atheism is only the beginning". Now, I am mostly directing this to people who say that there is an "ought", that human behavior and life ought to go a certain way, that there is something meaningful to carve out in life, and life isn't all for waste.
1. Correct. A lack of belief does not tell anyone how to live.
2. Atheism is not a beginning of anything. It is a lack of belief in god or gods. Taken to its' absolute extreme it is skepticism against the unproved assertions of religions and mysticism. (And I have stepped way out on a limb here. Many atheists will not agree. I am mostly referring to my own view.)
3. We must build 'NOTHING.' (FLAT OUT WRONG) Nothing to do with atheism. If atheists want to build something they will join a political party or social movement. Atheism is neither.
4. "You are mostly directing this to people who say there is an "ought?" That eliminates atheism completely. There are no "OUGHTS" in atheism.
5. OF COURSE LIFE IS NOT FOR WASTE. It does not follow that because there are no "oughts" in atheism that life is a waste. "WHAT A FRIGGING RETARDED STATEMENT. " Atheists do not believe in God or gods. Their lives are their own to achieve whatever goals or meanings they want to achieve. YOU CALL THAT A WASTE? GO FK YOURSELF. The only ought any atheist would ever have is one they have placed on them-self.
"A lot of thoughts and influence has gone into this," YOU CAN NOT PROVE IT BY THE IGNORANCE OF YOUR ASSERTIONS. IT LOOKS LIKE YOU DON'T EVEN HAVE THE MOST BASIC OF UNDERSTANDING EVEN THOUGH IT IS BITING YOU IN THE ASS. (SAM HARRIS QUOTE).
"I hope to interact with intelligent and coherent thinking, ..." You can not begin a dialogue with ignorant assertions and hope to have something intelligent come of it. You are like a cook trying to make a chocolate cake using lemons as the primary ingredient. There is nothing intelligent in what you are doing.
"I sit in my room / That was long ago?" " I am alone in Hong Kong." No wonder you are confused. Existentialism to regression in the same paragraph. And then an attempt to be back in the moment." Someone is certainly confused.
"What is it’s worth? It is nothing to me."
Then you have quite simply wasted your life. It's just that simple. You have spent your life deluding yourself with fantasy and now you have nothing. Why not welcome death as an old friend who visits at the end of a well lived life.
"Why should I complete these certain tasks, fulfill these activities before death?" If you can not answer that question for yourself. you may want to consider euthanasia. Quality of life is everything. (My own thoughts - not atheism.)
"This lack of belief in gods does not tell us how we ought to live, what we ought to do and how we ought to behave." CORRECT
We must build something. "WRONG!." Sit in your room an whine if you like. It's your life. Building something is only important if it is important to you. I haven't built a damn thing. I have written two books. I've taught thousands of students. I have done thousands of hours with couples, families and individuals in counseling sessions. I have loved and lost and lost and loved. I built nothing and I enjoyed every minute of the journey. I have sat in a room in Hong Kong, I have seen all the sights you have seen, and then I went out for a boat ride, a great steak dinner at the Win Casino in Hong Kong and had a wonderful night playing Texas Holdem at another Casino because the Win no longer offered it. What a great time! If you were not so busy sitting in your room and worrying about drinking a glass of water and dying you could have come along.
"I feel that I have been lost forever in a cave." And you sound like you have been lost forever in a frigging cave as well. If you can not find a cave, the dark and dank candle lit space in front of an alter with a dead man hanging on the wall will do just as well."
"Yet RELIGIOUS stories lied, they taught me to see AN IMAGINARY heaven and light when I SURROUNDED MYSELF WITH DARK AND ROT." I wandered around my cave with visions of heaven like a madman, unable to see what was in front of ME." EXCELLENT POINT, PROVES EVERYTHING I HAVE SAID.
"Go on!” it says. Enjoy your portion while you can. You will not win, in the end. You will eat your portion and find that that was all there was." AND IF YOU DID NOT EAT ENOUGH, YOU ARE AN IDIOT. IT WAS RIGHT THERE FOR THE TAKING. REGRETS ARE LIKE ASSHOLES, WE ALL HAVE THEM AND THEY ALL STINK!
"Death, you have won."
THEN YOU HAVE LIVED YOUR LIFE WRONG. IT'S JUST THAT SIMPLE.
@ Cog
I wasn't going to read the OP, a wall of text I do not need having read the first line. But, dammit Cog, your reply was so lucid I just had to try and digest that wall of whine that is the OP.
Well said Cog. I don't need to add anything . This guy should grasp life and enjoy the heck out of it. Sad bastard.
@ okokok
You might want to try and create paragraphs instead of just hitting those keys until you get one giant blob of unreadable text.
Although I read the replies, I ain't going to try and digest that vomit of letters in your OP.
rmfr
As arakish says, please do try and portray your ideas in a concise and cogent format. Always worth carefully editing a post before you post it as well. If you're responding to a post indicate who you are responding to, and try to quote specific text you mean to answer if possible.
That is the problem. I prodded and poked, and after numerous posts, was no closer to understanding exactly what the OP was driving at.
okokok. what is the point? By your dogma, is there supposed to be some "purpose"? Is it in this life or the next, and just the fuck what is it?
That is the problem. I prodded and poked, and after numerous posts, was no closer to understanding exactly what the OP was driving at.
okokok. what is the point? By your dogma, is there supposed to be some "purpose"? Is it in this life or the next, and just the fuck what is it?
I think my point is that we often entertain quietly good thoughts of virtue, love, altruism etc. Those central ideas to humanism. The rub is that none of these things are real outside of opinion and fancy, they are just another delusion as you would say religion is. As someone here has pointed out, being mean and hurtful causes suffering for myself, so why would I want that? The thing though is that if I could induce states of mind, or if the technology improved enough (and I'm sure it will one day) that I could rewire my neurochemistry to avoid these feelings, or take a pill, then I could sit quite comfortably with my actions. Psychopaths and the like do the same.
If there is no standard outside of ourselves, there is nothing wrong with doing anything. Nothing wrong or good. The standard I'm appealing to doesn't have to be God, or based on reward/punishment. It's just the belief that good is good and good is real, despite the origin of our morality in evolution and the soup of chemicals that bring it about, its the belief that being bad is wrong period. Outside of opinion. That there is a transcendent truth that we are responsible to live up to. If you don't believe in some kind of objective truth then obviously you can still be a good person. That is clear, but there is no "ought". You don't have to be good if you don't want to. There are only things going on and in the end, none of it matters if you say sot. And as I've said in the other posts our joys in life, and our consolations that we are good people making good use of our time, are empty as well. The day you feel differently about your life, or you lose what you've put your joy into (say a wife), or depression hits and you no longer find joy in your dopamine triggers, is the day your life loses meaning. Like that dying philosopher who has nothing to do but wait for death. In the end that is what we are all doing, the time between now and the end has no effect. All is meaningless and void. And I think we are constantly trying to distract ourselves from this, eating our empty meals, and death still comes all the same. Whether you like tolstoy's analogy or not, time will bring you to your death, and what you do between now and then is entirely up to you. So what is there to do other than lick the honey? Chase after your wants and lusts? It doesn't matter man. I find it interesting that people assert so strongly that they are satisfied. No one really is, life is painful.
Simone Weil says "The soul knows for certain only that it is hungry. The important thing is that it announces its hunger by crying. A child does not stop crying if we suggest to it that perhaps there is no bread. It goes on crying just the same. The danger is not lest the soul should doubt whether there is any bread, but lest, by a lie, it should persuade itself that it is not hungry".
All humans experience this, and it is hypocritical to assert that we are not hungry. I am hungry. And I scorn the meal life has prepared for me, because I have eaten it before, and still find myself wanting. It is inescapable, but I can't live for the honey on the leaf, man. It's ephemeral, a distraction, and pointless. My only hope is that there is meaning, purpose, and goodness. That I must live up to my responsibilities, that I must do good, and that this is not a matter of how I feel. That I must do what is right despite how I feel. And so in my little story there with the guy planting the garden, him planting is acting out the truth that he feels in his heart, that he must do what is right regardless of anything else. That that is the ultimate purpose. And he doesn't know if that subjective truth is real, if it is actually worth something, worth following. He can't know if the sun will rise, he is living by faith. But to reduce his life to the meal prepared for him is pitiful. I desire to be more than animal. I disagree with the thought, "well there is nothing better to do so you might as well do what makes you happy." What we run after isn't even that fulfilling in the end. Our greatest fear should be achieving our goals, I read about an Olympic gold medalist once, and she said that she wished she could have told her younger self that there wasn't anything waiting for her at the top. She won and the end. The poor are more blessed than us, more happy, because there is always a goal they can work towards. So I reject living for this world and put my hope in this "light". I am not satisfied with the "good things" of life. Every time I receive them I am still hungry.
If I'm wrong about all of this at least I followed what I felt in my heart to be true. That "light" within me that tells me I should do what is good. I would rather die like that man in the holocaust, without reward, recognition or applause. He did what was right and that is meaningful, no God or heaven required. It is better for me to give everything up for what is good, than to live for myself and my wants, even if it doesn't feel good to do so. Better to suffer for what is right. I believe this. I don't know this, I can't know. But I really do believe in this. And I hope desperately that the sun will rise, and that the light is real.
@okokok
"I think my point is that we often entertain quietly good thoughts of virtue, love, altruism etc. Those central ideas to humanism. The rub is that none of these things are real outside of opinion and fancy, they are just another delusion as you would say religion is."
My morality and actions are not driven by just opinion and fancy. They are built in sound principles. I base it on "well being". If I steal from someone, it is not in the interests of their well being that they were robbed. If they retaliated and beat me up, that would not be in my interests of well being. I could offer numerous examples, but all of them lead back to "well being".
"If there is no standard outside of ourselves, there is nothing wrong with doing anything."
If you truly believe that, then I urge you to remain a theist. If that is the only reason you have not done wrong, then keep on praying. For myself and many other atheists, I refer back to "well being". Because of that, I have boundaries and "well being" is what controls my decisions.
We all die. Get over it. But life is a journey, one to be enjoyed and savored. okokok you are consumed by the destination, something that may take decades for you to arrive at. Ignore the destination, enjoy the journey.
Because it's a fun ride.
ok ok ok, you wrote, “I think my point is that we often entertain quietly good thoughts of virtue, love, altruism etc. Those central ideas to humanism. The rub is that none of these things are real outside of opinion and fancy, they are just another delusion as you would say religion is. As someone here has pointed out, being mean and hurtful causes suffering for myself, so why would I want that? The thing though is that if I could induce states of mind, or if the technology improved enough (and I'm sure it will one day) that I could rewire my neurochemistry to avoid these feelings, or take a pill, then I could sit quite comfortably with my actions. Psychopaths and the like do the same.”
Sounds to me like you don’t trust yourself (or are too lazy) to provide meaning to your own life so want it given to you be someone/thing else.
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