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The meaning I give to my life and my death is ideally wholly my own. It is highly likely that I will die. I don't know what will happen after I die to the atoms that make me who I am. It is difficult for me to identifying any particular meaning when I am in such a state, when I am so ignorant of that state.
@okokok Re: OP
Ahhhh... Another "Meaning of Life" discussion. Lovely...
Well, aside from writing this post, I am currently lounging on my couch in my underwear and stuffing my face with Cheetos while guzzling my fifth Pabst Blue Ribbon and watching back-to-back reruns of "The Golden Girls". (Bea Arthur is a friggin' HOTTIE.) You know, just living the good life. What more could a person possibly want?... *thumbs up*..... *BUH-uuRRRRRrrrrp!*.... Oh, 'scuse me.... *brushing Cheetos crumbs from chest hair*....
...*holding hands up in surrender*... Alright, alright.... You got me. That's not really what I'm doing. I hate PBR. I'm actually drinking Miller High Life.
Okay(okok), seriously, though, why is it soooo necessary/vital/"desired" that there be some super-duper-gollywhopper-polymorphic-metaphysical-existential "Purpose of Life"? We are here. We are alive. We are breathing. Make the most of what you've got while you have it. I am fortunate enough to live in a place where I have a comfortable life. And I am totally aware there are millions of people in the world whose lives are merely a day-to-day struggle for survival. Therefore, I do my best not to take my good fortune for granted. And, in my opinion, it would be an insult to those less fortunate people if I were to waste my good fortune by making my life miserable being all worried and stressed over some "imaginary" greater purpose. Enjoy what you have. Help others when you can. Be a good person. Why make things unnecessarily complicated?
TLDR
That word salad needs some french dressing.
OKOKOK: "I think my point is that we often entertain quietly good thoughts of virtue, love, altruism etc. Those central ideas to humanism. The rub is that none of these things are real outside of opinion and fancy, they are just another delusion as you would say religion is."
"LIFE IS REAL, ONLY THEN, WHEN I AM." (G. Gurdjief) You do not get shit from life, you bring it to life, This is even true of the Religions of the world.
"If there is no standard outside of ourselves, there is nothing wrong with doing anything."
EXTREME IGNORANCE: All of human history is an example of culling out those individuals without social traits. If you can not fit in you are banished from the human tribe, locked away, or killed. We are moral being by virtue of our evolutionary need for survival. You do anything and you violate the social norms and you can expect consequences from the group. That is a fact of group survival and all human existence.
"That is clear, but there is no "ought". You don't have to be good if you don't want to." YEP. So why aren't you out there raping and killing? Murder would be fun wouldn't it? You think you have freedom to do as you like? Why aren't you doing it? You will find yourself incarcerated, ostracized, removed from the public or possibly killed. Go ahead and do as you like, At least God will forgive your raping, murdering, child molesting, arson, and the rest. 80% of all prison inmates are good Christians who have been forgiven and are on their way to Heaven.
" No one really is, life is painful." You have quite simply missed one of the most important lessons of life. (A Buddhist monk once found himself hanging by a branch on the side of a cliff. The branch was slowly tearing from the side of the cliff and the monk would soon fall to his death. A pride of lions heard the monk slip and rushed to the edge of the cliff. They are now looking down at him with hunger in their eyes. There is no escape. And then the monk sees a small strawberry plant with one ripe red berry on it, clinging to the side of the mountain. He reaches out his hand and plops the berry into his mouth.) Some people miss the forest for the trees. You are missing the trees for the forest.
YOU NEED TO START OWNING YOUR SHIT - STOP PUTTING WORDS IN THE MOUTHS OF OTHERS. NO ONE HERE THINKS LIKE YOU, OWN YOUR SHIT!
The day (l felt) differently about (my) life, or (my loss and) what(I) put (my) joy into (say my wife), depression hits (me) and (I) no longer find joy in (my dopamine triggers,) is the day (my) life loses meaning. (I'm like) that dying philosopher who has nothing to do but wait for death. In the end that is (all I am) doing, Between now and the end (there is) no effect (for me). (I think all) is meaningless and void. I think (I am) constantly trying to distract (my self) from this (by eating my empty meals,) ( I think (death) still comes all the same. Whether ( I), like Tolstoy's analogy or not, time will bring (me) to (my) death, and what (I) do between now and then is entirely up to (me). So what is there (for me) to do other than lick the honey? Chase after (my) wants and lusts? It doesn't matter (to me). I find it interesting that people assert so strongly that they are satisfied. (I don't believe anyone) really is no matter what they say. (They are all liars.) (To me life is painful.) AND GUESS WHAT??? IT'S YOUR LIFE. I FOR ONE - DON'T GIVE A SHIT!
MORE DISASSOCIATION BULLSHIT. You convert the rest of this crap to "I statements." I don't have time for you. I have interesting things to do and miles to go before I sleep, And miles to go before I sleep. (Really sad that you don't get this.)
@ Oky Doky Poky
Seems you need to seek psychiatric help. Think about it.
rmfr
@ Arakish
As well as that I think Okokok has just got a little too into Rumi.(Jalāl ad-Dīn Muhammad Balkhī (جلالالدین محمد بلخى).......never a good thing on an empty head.
"Never a good thing on an empty head" I just stole that one.
@ Cog
You are welcome sir....
"Forever"
What is forever,
Or eternity?
Is it countless years?
Eons beyond imagination?
Is it time without end?
Infinity?
You face a moment
A deep dreaded chill
The hummingbird wing
Begins moving at a glacial pace
A disaster has struck
Time now stands still…
And here we are now
From our birth ‘til death
Seconds and minutes
Tick-tock by at a relative speed
I have lived forever
Taking last breath.
Tin-Man 02/23/19
I like it. I also like this by Robert Frost:
Whose woods these are I think I know.
His house is in the village though;
He will not see me stopping here
To watch his woods fill up with snow.
My little horse must think it queer
To stop without a farmhouse near
Between the woods and frozen lake
The darkest evening of the year.
He gives his harness bells a shake
To ask if there is some mistake.
The only other sound’s the sweep
Of easy wind and downy flake.
The woods are lovely, dark and deep,
But I have promises to keep,
And miles to go before I sleep,
And miles to go before I sleep.
The last paragraph seems very apropos somehow, especially give the tendency of author of this thread to view life in a "my glass is half empty" sort of mindset.
The woods are lovely, dark and deep,
But I have promises to keep,
And miles to go before I sleep,
And miles to go before I sleep.
Hey thanks for all the thoughts guys. I find your views on life very compelling, that we are here, and we must make the most of it. I think perhaps where I would diverge from opinion, as I have been trying to say, is that the most someone can make of their life is not eating the strawberry, like that buddha, but doing what that man in the holocaust did. That is my belief. That self sacrifice for the god of others is higher than personal gain. And I think perhaps the views you all have shared are more akin to living as a personal agent in this world, doing good when you can, and ensuring your happiness. And from your worldview that is all you've been asked to do. However I do think there is more to life than this. Robert Frost ends that poem remarking how beautiful the forest is, yet he must forsake it in order to fulfill his promise. He has purpose and a direction. And this is how we ought to live. I do believe life is beautiful. Absolutely. But I do not live for that forest. As I go my way, headed in the direction of "the good" I can enjoy that forest, but I must always remind myself that it is only temporary. And I am willing to sacrifice my enjoyment of the forest for the sake of my responsibilities, my direction. This life ends and I am over that. The honey is sweet, the strawberry is good, and then it ends. I'm just saying I cannot bear to live for that strawberry, for the honey on the leaf etc. I think when one lives for this, they do find themselves wanting more. Its called the human condition and we've been talking about it for a couple hundred years now. But to put your hope in higher virtue, not based on reward you will receive or the fear of punishment, this is the life of a true man. The forest IS lovely, dark and deep. But I have promises to keep, and miles to go before I sleep, and miles to go before I sleep. I am going somewhere with my life, I will do good because that is higher. I will not use it enjoying this forest.
You can believe what you wish of course, but there is no objective evidence for any deity or anything supernatural including an afterlife. You are simply picking an unevidenced delusion that makes you happy, over reality which you find dissatisfying. The problem is that you may waste this life in anticipation of a fictional one that doesn't exist.
" I think when one lives for this, they do find themselves wanting more."
Well I can't speak for anyone else, but this is not the case for me, and of course what one wants is irrelevant, as there is no more.
"I am going somewhere with my life, I will do good because that is higher. I will not use it enjoying this forest."
In the poem the woods are a siren drawing the man to his death, just as the delusion of an afterlife has caused so many lives to be cut short. The promises represent what the man might achieve during his life, and the line "miles to go before I sleep" obviously represent the years that he might live for before he dies.
" I do think there is more to life than this."
You can believe the moon is made of cheese, that doesn't make it so.
Yes and all this I am aware of. "You speak of light, fool do you see one? It matters not the sky if you say that you need one"
One note, I have repeated incessantly that I am not linking what I am talking about to the afterlife or deities. I am not sure why you continue to bring this up. I should have left my other beliefs unsaid, and these irrelevant assertions would not continue to be made. I posted all this primarily in the hope that someone could give me a compelling reason to behave like that man in the holocaust without appealing to something "beyond". Can you think of one? It's getting back to the responsibility thing, regardless of opinion. If "ought" can be demonstrated please do so.
As far as I can tell it can't without appealing to a "beyond".
Please do not answer this saying I should go kill people, you and I are smarter than saying such things.
Tolstoy has compelled me to believe that without a "beyond" the best thing for us in life is to enjoy it an "lick the honey". His analysis of how pitiful and meaningless licking this honey is, is quite compelling. I suggest you read A Confession and see for yourself. It seems the best we can do is say "don't ask about, stop over thinking it, and just shut up and eat the honey". Let's all forget about it, go stick our heads in the sand and jerk ourselves off until we die!
I am awestruck by the actions of that man in the holocaust. It moves me and compels me, its like seeing something divine on earth. My friend, an atheist, once spoke about a trip he went to in Europe, in his history class. They visited the graves of soldiers from the wars. And he felt similarly. He couldn't believe the sacrifice this young dead soldier had made, and for what? In his words, "so I can just chase some girl? Get a job?". This man's actions were so much higher, in his mind, than what the world compelled him to follow, "licking the honey". This belief is not a logical conclusion. It is a subjective one. You are right to say there is no objective evidence for "good". Yet all the same it shines brighter than what you are saying life is to be lived for.
I am willing to follow this light that my heart testifies is true and pure, even if none such light exists. Because it is a higher thing than honey.
Is this not pure? Is this not holy? Is this not higher than anything else you can give? The only possibility for true light and meaning to exist is with the madman I talked about earlier, wandering around in the dark with visions of heaven. He's likely crazy but the only possibility for real, actual meaning to exist is if his vision is right. True meaning will not be found in licking the honey, or in rebellion against the meal death has laid out for us. The man who does these things knows it doesn't actually matter, he just enjoys the feeling of sensory pleasure or egoistical defiance. We can say we have made a subjective meaning, and successfully distract ourselves, but all the while we know, this life has no reason. It doesn't matter really what we choose to do.
And so my options are either to consciously follow my well being and happiness, knowing objectively it does not matter and amounts to nothing, or follow the madman because he may be right. Probably not, but his words are sweet and testify to the light my heart speaks. To chase only after happiness is to forget this light, forget that man in the holocaust. And to make such a decision, for me, is horrifying. I could not live with it. I can not close my eyes to the beauty I have seen. I can't, I refuse to, it would be to deny the deepest, and most confusing, part of me. I don't have the answers and I don't fully understand. But as I said with the man planting his garden, it is better to die for what your heart says is right, than to deny it and settle for comfort, even if this light within does not exist in the sky.
Is this not pure.
And to repeat myself for the last time please do no associate what I am talking about, "the good, the light" with deities or the afterlife.
You've lost me sorry, there is no afterlife, and the choices we make based on the reality we are faced with is all there is. If you don't find this a compelling reason to enjoy your life and be as moral as you can reason to be, then so be it, that's your choice.
"I am willing to follow this light that my heart testifies is true and pure, even if none such light exists."
As I said, you are simply choosing to believe something that you find more appealing than reality. So I am not sure what you want from people who don't hold that belief.
"Is this not pure? Is this not holy? Is this not higher than anything else you can give? "
It;s a delusion, so your string of adjectives have no relevance to reality that I can see. It's enough for me to try and be as moral as I can, learn from any mistakes I make, and try not to repeat them. You may find reality unsatisfying, but it's wrong and a little arrogant to assume people who don't share your beliefs think or feel the same way.
"we know, this life has no reason. It doesn't matter really what we choose to do."
Again how you feel is your choice, it's petty arrogant to tell others they must feel the same though, but it a simple fact that there is zero evidence that our lives have any meaning beyond what we and others attach to them.
"And so my options are either to consciously follow my well being and happiness, knowing objectively it does not matter and amounts to nothing, or follow the madman because he may be right."
I don't agree, as without any evidence you can't rationally assert anything might be true. This just sounds again like your choosing to believe something without any evidence because you find the belief more satisfying than the alternative. I also don't see well being and happiness as "amounting to nothing", I think they are very important, and the most moral life would one where we tried to maximise these for everyone. I also think the reason you're trying to exclude religious beliefs and theistic beliefs from this discourse is because you want to portray the belief in afterlife in the context Pascal's wager and as a win win scenario. It isn't of course, as the belief in afterlife usually comes with quite a few other pernicious beliefs.
I can only live according to the reality I am faced with, inevitably I will find aspects of it dissatisfying, but that can't be changed by deluding myself in fictional afterlives. Nor should we forget that this idea is deeply pernicious and has been used throughout human history to placate people into accepting shitty lives in the here and now.
I'm not talking about the afterlife. The words i'm using, "light, good" etc do not entail me continuing consciousness after I die. I don't know how to make that more clear. You have associated these concepts too closely. I am talking about some kind of a truth, standard, goodness or whatever, that exists apart from myself. That does not mean I belong to it, or will go to it, or will understand it when I die. That thing can exist without the afterlife, and without it owing anything to me.
Now, as I have made clear, this thing cannot be proven to be true, nor does a lack of evidence validate its existence or belief in it. Duh duh duh. I know. And you are correct, others don't have to feel the same as I do, depressed about the pointlessness of life, and yet you are correct, our lives have no other meaning than what we choose to attach to them. People can still choose to be happy despite the meaninglessness of everything they do, and as I have shown, I am quite cynical and see them as distracted and running from pain. But that is my prerogative, and tolstoy is quite convincing.
But what I am saying is that I am moved, by the actions of people who sacrifice themselves. I cannot prove it, but I do believe objectively in the goodness of what they do. I am saying that I believe I am responsible to live up to this standard, and that his belief is so closely embedded within me it is almost by instinct. All the while understanding I may be deluded and choosing to believe in fantasy, I can't help but see the beauty and purity of their actions. So I believe in that and have chosen to follow it, and I consider it "better" than following desire. Following this "good" does not entail an afterlife, does not entail a nice crown and applause for me. For the man in the holocaust it entailed a bullet in his head. Done. I cannot bear to read you saying I am talking about an afterlife. Stop. I am talking about objective morality, which I cannot prove, yet which I feel to be true and which I must follow. And I am saying, if it is not true, it is a far more beautiful and nobler way of life to follow this goodness, to sacrifice oneself and ones desires for the sake of the good, than to eat the strawberry and lick the honey. okokok
The only thing that matters is that you cannot demonstrate any objective evidence for it beyond wishful thinking on your part, so how can your claims be clear at all when you're describing something that is to all intents and purposes fictional. I also have explained that I don't think that everything I do is meaningless, nor do I find life completely pointless as you do, just because there is no overarching purpose to it's existence. Nor have I disagreed that self sacrifice is a moral deed, so I'm not seeing your point here to be honest. I certainly don't see it's a choice between self sacrifice and desire, this comparison seems a specious oversimplification to me.
"I am talking about objective morality, which I cannot prove, yet which I feel to be true"
Give me some examples of it, and where it comes from.
"I am saying, if it is not true, it is a far more beautiful and nobler way of life to follow this goodness,"
A goodness you can neither evidence nor properly define. You seem to be vague and all over the place to be honest, and without something specific, that you can evidence i some tangible way, I'm not sure what it is you want except to preach your beliefs?
It is a fact supported by a large body of research that when compared in the same context atheists prove to be at least as moral as theists. So what EXACTLY is it you're trying to say about morality here? Can you give some examples of this objective morality you claim exists, why you think they are moral, and where it is you think they are derived?
@ okokok
Ultimately, the only meaning of life, is life. Life is what you make of it. You are born. You eat and drink. You defecate and urinate. You reproduce. You die. There is no after. At least there is no objective hard empirical evidence of any kind of "hereafter" after you die. Since we do not know, and seemingly cannot know, make a good life while you are here. Here are a few things I have used while I have been alive.
My Ten Commandments of Humanity
My Philosophy Of Life
“He with long nose, tends to get it chopped off.” — Arakish's father
And when it comes to ANY religion:
“Wish in one hand (religion) and do something with the other (reality). Squeeze both hands real hard and see which one comes true.” — Prince Corwin, Chronicles of Amber
rmfr
The woods are lovely, dark and deep,
But I have promises to keep,
And miles to go before I sleep,
And miles to go before I sleep.
Hey thanks for all the thoughts guys. I find your views on life very compelling, that we are here, and we must make the most of it. I think perhaps where I would diverge from opinion, as I have been trying to say, is that the most someone can make of their life is not eating the strawberry, like that buddha, but doing what that man in the holocaust did. That is my belief. That self sacrifice for the god of others is higher than personal gain. And I think perhaps the views you all have shared are more akin to living as a personal agent in this world, doing good when you can, and ensuring your happiness. And from your worldview that is all you've been asked to do. However I do think there is more to life than this. Robert Frost ends that poem remarking how beautiful the forest is, yet he must forsake it in order to fulfill his promise. He has purpose and a direction. And this is how we ought to live. I do believe life is beautiful. Absolutely. But I do not live for that forest. As I go my way, headed in the direction of "the good" I can enjoy that forest, but I must always remind myself that it is only temporary. And I am willing to sacrifice my enjoyment of the forest for the sake of my responsibilities, my direction. This life ends and I am over that. The honey is sweet, the strawberry is good, and then it ends. I'm just saying I cannot bear to live for that strawberry, for the honey on the leaf etc. I think when one lives for this, they do find themselves wanting more. Its called the human condition and we've been talking about it for a couple hundred years now. But to put your hope in higher virtue, not based on reward you will receive or the fear of punishment, this is the life of a true man. The forest IS lovely, dark and deep. But I have promises to keep, and miles to go before I sleep, and miles to go before I sleep. I am going somewhere with my life, I will do good because that is higher. I will not use it enjoying this forest.
Sheldon: OKOKOK finds a poem about stopping in the woods on a snowy day and contemplating suicide "comforting." Were you expecting anything else?
Okey Dokey Pokey: Hey! I got the video for you! I don't know why I didn't think of this sooner.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hfLEChxV2fw
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IJNR2EpS0jw
Of course Shakespeare has Hamlet thinking from another perspective, and though I can't agree with Hamlet's conclusion the prose makes it worth remembering and celebrating.
To be, or not to be: that is the question:
Whether ‘tis nobler in the mind to suffer
The slings and arrows of outrageous fortune,
Or to take arms against a sea of troubles,
And by opposing end them? To die: to sleep;
No more; and by a sleep to say we end
The heart-ache and the thousand natural shocks
That flesh is heir to, ‘tis a consummation
Devoutly to be wish’d. To die, to sleep;
To sleep: perchance to dream: ay, there’s the rub;
For in that sleep of death what dreams may come
When we have shuffled off this mortal coil,
Must give us pause: there’s the respect
That makes calamity of so long life;
For who would bear the whips and scorns of time,
The oppressor’s wrong, the proud man’s contumely,
The pangs of despised love, the law’s delay,
The insolence of office and the spurns
That patient merit of the unworthy takes,
When he himself might his quietus make
With a bare bodkin? who would fardels bear,
To grunt and sweat under a weary life,
But that the dread of something after death,
The undiscover’d country from whose bourn
No traveller returns, puzzles the will
And makes us rather bear those ills we have
Than fly to others that we know not of?
Thus conscience does make cowards of us all;
And thus the native hue of resolution
Is sicklied o’er with the pale cast of thought,
And enterprises of great pith and moment
With this regard their currents turn awry,
And lose the name of action.—Soft you now!
The fair Ophelia! Nymph, in thy orisons
Be all my sins remember’d.
"Self sacrifice for the god of other's is the highest gain!"
"FOLLOW ME! ONWARD FELLOW LEMMINGS! Sheldon, Tin Man, Old Man, come on guys, pick up the pace. Xenoview, put down that bottle of french dressing and get up ;here with the rest. All together now! OVER THE CLIFF WE GO! "
I'm in, if you find reality dissatisfying, and slightly depressing, just believe a myth there is no evidence for, that your consciousness can survive the physical death of your brain.
This all sounds depressingly like a variation on Pascal's wager to me.
""Self sacrifice for the god of other's is the highest gain!""
Cognostic: ""FOLLOW ME! ONWARD FELLOW LEMMINGS! Sheldon, Tin Man, Old Man, come on guys, pick up the pace. Xenoview, put down that bottle of french dressing and get up ;here with the rest. All together now! OVER THE CLIFF WE GO! ""
And when you get to a tree, TURN RIGHT! (over the cliff)
rmfr
NOOOO! The tree is one of us! Grab it and pull it over the edge as well.!!!
Re: "Follow me over the edge!"
Oh boy, oh boy, oh boy!!!.... *clapping gleefully*.... A B.A.S.E. jump! Yahooo! Got my chute packed for a quick opening. Times like these I wish I had learned how to use a wing-suit.
@ Cog
Yes lets go! Wait...uh wait guys...this is a trike not a hang glider...you go on ahead, I'll catch up.......
(Crap. Had to remove double post.)
This idea that there is an ultimate right way. This notion of the existence a supernatural accountant, to balance the rights and wrongs of the now, with action in some future/illusory world. Some call it God/Heaven/Hell. Some call it karma. A kid might even call it Santa Claus. Some of us scoff at those words, then do the same thing ourselves and call it "justice".
Why do we seem to have this ridiculous need to believe in a moral accountant?
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